How much is considered "out of Battery"

[mhidpa]

So my the ETSU marksmanship club ( I am VP) just bought a Stainless Taurus PT1911 and I put the frest few rounds though it. At one point I had a FTRTB (the extractor was behind the rim) which I noticed right before I notced the hammer dropping. The slide was far enough back that I could visually tell that it was not in battery. I then checked a few times by pushing the slide back slightly and pulling the trigger. The hammer fell again. Next I used the highly scientific method of pushing the slide back with one hand while measureing the difference between the front of the guide rod and the front of the guide rod plunger and pulling the trigger. I found that up to approx. .084" of travel the hammer will still fall. There is no signifigant gap between the barrel/breach face at this point. Does the disconnector need to be replaced?

[Hunter]

I would say that is out of battery. If the slide is not fully seated it is out of battery.
Have you tested the extractor tension?

[niemi24s]

I'm not sure myself if there is any official or otherwise published distance the slide can be from it's fully forward position before connecting the disconnector and allowing the gun to fire.

FWIW, just measured this distance at about 0.03" on an old USGI M1911A1. This seems a little short to me, but don't know for sure.

When moving the slide forward to the 0.084" out of battery position, how far are the barrel & slide from full vertical locking lug engagement?

Perhaps someone will chime in with a better, more authoritative answer.

Cheers

[1911Tuner]

One...Generally speaking, .050 out is "enough" to keep the gun from from firing before the lugs are well enough engaged... but .030 will do because the way the firing pin stop and hammer are designed...the hammer can't reach the firing pin anyway. Alter the hammer by removing material at the contact point in order to make it lighter, and all bets are off.

Two...At .030 inch of slide travel, and assuming that the specs are good...the disconnect will move into the frame far enough so that it will slip off the sear, and the hammer will stop at half-cock. If it doesn't...there's the firing pin stop.

Three...Here's yet another advantage to the small-radiused firing pin stop. The pistol is full of redundant/backup systems. See...John Browning really did know what he was doin'. No! Really! I got that from a reliable source.

[ElrodCod]

See...John Browning really did know what he was doin'. No! Really! I got that from a reliable source.

I recommend that everyone read John M. Browning American Gunmaker. A great read...he was a truly gifted man.

[berkbw]

Just MY $0.02 here. But. Unload your gun, mag out, chamber empty. Rack the slide and let it fall. THAT is "battery" ANYTHING less than that is "out of battery", and a real potential danger to YOU if you were to fire it there.

In general, the slide disconnect has a range in which it will allow the gun to be fired. They are all like that, and it's OK - if your slide always returns to battery. If if doesn't, you could be cooked like a Christmas goose. If your gun does not return to battery ALWAYS fix it. Or you could experience the joy of having a mag of ammo fire off in your hand - or strange flying stuff find its way behind your shooting glasses.

Read up on the stickies of "headspace" and think that for every thousandth it is out of battery, you've just added that to your headspace. 4 sheets of copy paper = 20 thou. it's not much.

b-

[log man]

Hey,berkie it's those nasty striker fired guns that fire out of battery, what are they, Gluks, or something. Oh heck, I don't even know what they're called!

LOG

[1911Tuner]

Read up on the stickies of "headspace" and think that for every thousandth it is out of battery, you've just added that to your headspace.

While true with a straight blowback weapon, remember that with the 1911, the slide can be as much as .100-.110 inch rearward of full battery with the lugs still fully engaged in the slide, because the barrel moves with the slide. If the gun fires, it won't immediately allow the breech to open, though it will attempt to open too soon...but with pressure remaining on the lugs and breechface, it will still have a little delay, and it's not likely to grenade the gun. At least not in .45 ACP caliber. If it's a high-pressure number like the 9mm or .38 Super...all bets are off on that point.

You can run a quick test to see how far the slide can be out of full battery and still let the hammer hit the firing pin. If the hammer can't reach the pin...the gun can't fire.

[mhidpa]

thanks, those redundancied built into the hammer/fps make sense. I'll check it out next time I get my hands on the gun.

[berkbw]

Ha Ha !! As always, Tuner, you are right. 'swat I get for posting during a tif with the wife and before bkfst.

Yes, it is one of the beauties of JMB's locked breech design.

[log man]

The only out of battery ignition that I'm aware of in a 1911, is when a live round is ejected with a hand held over the port and the primer is struck by an extended ejector. Ouch! All the rest of this speculation is bunk. :)

LOG

[1911Tuner]

Preliminary calculations based on blueprint data for the M1911A1 show it is possible for the hammer to just barely make contact with the firing pin when the slide is 0.099 0.085 inch away from going into battery (in a mid-spec gun).

Now...using the standard rate firing pin spring and the standard mass firing pin...calculate whether or not it'll hit hard enough to drive the pin into the primer...taking into account that it's not a dead-on strike.

Then...Refigure it with the 5/64ths firing pin stop radius factored in, and you can start to appreciate the genius of Browning's redundancies.

[niemi24s]

How close to battery must a slide be before a falling hammer can just barely make contact with the firing pin?

For a mid-spec USGI M1911A1 it's as shown below:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p232/niemi24s/scan0005aHammer.jpg
It's based solely on blueprint data for the FPS, FP, slide, barrel and frame. No disconnector, hammer notches, etc., involved. Whether or not this can actually occur is another matter entirely.

Regards

[1911Tuner]

Whether or not this can actually occur is another matter entirely.

Probably not. If the disconnect is cammed down that far, it would likely slip off the sear and into the disconnected position...letting the sear reset and grab the half-cock.

[niemi24s]

FWIW, when the slide is 0.124 inch away from going into battery (link in compression), the locking lug vertical engagement will be about 0.0095 inch less (or be 0.0298 inch) than when at battery (when there's 0.0393 inch of engagement).

That's about 76% of engagement for a mid-spec USGI M1911A1.

Don't know how to figure out how much energy the hammer needs to impart to the FP to ignite the primer, but the 0.124 inch distance was calculated based on the FPS being held fully aftward in the slide slots by the FP spring.

With 0.003 inch of possible forward FPS movement (against the relatively weak FP spring) whether or not the hammer could move the FPS forward and get the FP going fast enough to pop the primer would be tough to answer - for me, at least.