1943 Colt 1911A1/Refinished or Original?

[Captain America]

Please give your opinion on the finish of this WWII Lend Lease Colt.
Has it been refinished?

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=20227

Pay close attention to the "British Gov't" mark on the right side just
under the slide stop pin. That mark would have been stamped on long
after the gun was finished and should show some bare metal? Same for
the other British markings. Is that correct?

I'm far from an expert, but it looks too good to be true.

Thank You for your opinion.

JB

[Axel]

It looks like original finish to me looking at the pictures.

The British stamps might be tarnished from age.

The ordinance stamp looks bright. The barrel looks to be blued.

Lots of money for a later war 1911a1 but then they are not getting any cheaper.

[crjoe]

The gun looks a little too black. Other Colts from that time that I have seen are lighter with some green overtones. It could be original, but for that price I would like to see it in person.

[Scott Gahimer]

Even though the photography lacks a little, it appears to be original finish and correct. It is NOT a Battle of Britain pistol. It's too late for the Battle of Britain donations of 1940.
$2950 is currently too hefty of a price for that pistol IMO.

[TattooPaul]

Finish is always open for debate. I see no obvious signs, such as rounded edges or out of place sanding marks, to set off the alarms. I have a '43 Colt A1 and it, too, has a very nice finish on it and I have gone over it with a loupe, compared it to others and still believe it to be original despite it's great condition despite it's age. My Colt has that parked finish with a greeninsh/brownish tinge to it as opposed to gray or black.

It is hard to judge the finishes color as photo's can have a cast that may lose the true tones.

The price is definitely too high (by more than several hundred dollars) IMHO. There are great ones available for less elsewhere if you can be patient and keep searching. I came upon mine when I least expected to. I also paid what I considered top dollar and it was much lower that what is being asked here.

[flintsghost]

In my opinion, based on what I've seen and guns in my own collection, this mid 1943 Colt should have all early features i.e., wide hammer, checkered thumb safety, slide stop, and mainspring housing as well as the one piece milled and checkered trigger. As far as my understanding and the pieces I've seen, Colt didn't begin transitioning to stamped triggers, thin hammers, grooved mainspring and slide stops and stamped thumb safeties until the first block in 1944 which started with the 1609529 serial and then all the early features don't appear totally on all pistols until 1945, so there was use of some of the old parts until they ran out. This 1943 pistol has the stamped trigger which I don't think it should have. Also it is also very dark and very late to be a dulite finish. At the point in production where this one was made in late 1943, all Colts were being parkerized and they weren't as dark as this one appears to be but that might be just a photographic problem. In good light it should be a grey green color.

British lend lease guns are not rare, they show up periodically and I believe that right now there are two on gunbroker. Most that I have seen are in excellent or better original condition showing little if any use. Everyone I've ever seen was stamped "Not British Make 1952" indicating when they were released and returned to the US. The British proofs appear on the barrel, slide and frame. Also the price appears to be very high from my experience but Collectors Firearms in Houston is pretty well known for having fairly high asking prices on all their merchandise.

[Scott Gahimer]

...This 1943 pistol has the stamped trigger which I don't think it should have. Also it is also very dark and very late to be a dulite finish. At the point in production where this one was made in late 1943, all Colts were being parkerized and they weren't as dark as this one appears to be but that might be just a photographic problem. In good light it should be a grey green color.

...Everyone I've ever seen was stamped "Not British Make 1952" indicating when they were released and returned to the US.

This Colt pistol is a 1944 pistol. Colt was at 1155000 +/- at the 1943/44 break. That is what "(1944 +/-1155000-1208673)" in Clawson's serial number chart means.

There is a lot of overlap with the milled trigger and stamped trigger in this range. I think the stamped trigger is correct and original in this pistol at 1195742 in 1944.

Colt's never Du-Lite blued any of their M1911A1 pistols. I agree the photography lacks, but the finish looks original to me.

No Lend-Lease pistols were ever marked "Not British Make 1952". Some were marked "NOT BRITISH MAKE" and "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952" stamped separately. But not all Lend-Lease pistols have those markings at all...only the ones released by the British Govt. in 1952. Several other countries received pistols under the Lend-Lease Act of 1941, and none of those pistols will be marked "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952".
There are all kinds of British proof marks applied to L-L pistols, depending on when they were released and by whom.
The British proof marks have nothing to do with the pistols being "released and returned" to the United States. The British proof marks are commercial proof house markings that were required by British common law.
Once the pistols were released by whatever government owned them at the time, they were sold commercially and received the commercial proof house markings. Then, many were re-sold again to dealers here in the United States.
Lend-Lease pistols were British commercial proofed over a period of years because all the L-L pistols were not released at the same time, nor by the same countries. But they were generally bought up from the various governments (British Empire, Canada, China, French Forces, U.S.S.R., American Republics, and other Countries) by the same international arms dealer who operated out of England. Thus, the pistols were sold on the commercial market throughout the world from England.
The United States government never claimed any ownership to the items lend-leased once given to the other countries. Each Allied country gave what they could to the war effort. It was at the President's discretion, as the law was written, to determine what was to be given. And even though the law was titled "Lend-Lease Act of 1941", we never actaully loaned anything. In the end, they were the same as gifted to the other countries because the U.S. Govt. did not retain rights of ownership. None of the L-L pistols were ever returned to the U.S. as property of the U.S. government.
BTW, there are original 1945 Colt pistols with what we consider "early" parts, too. A lot of overlap in late 1944 and ealry 1945.
Hope that helps some.

[romer12]

I, too, think it's a bit much for this gun.................

[flintsghost]

[QUOTE=Scott Gahimer]This Colt pistol is a 1944 pistol. Colt was at 1155000 +/- at the 1943/44 break. That is what "(1944 +/-1155000-1208673)" in Clawson's serial number chart means.

Clawson shows the block going up to 1208673 as going through 43 and 44 because there is no definite information on when it was completed. But according to the information that I do have on production from various manufacturers, the last serial in 1943 by Colt was 1208673. The first 1944 Colt serial was 1609529 (according to www.M1911.org. I have pistols in both blocks. The 1943's I have and have seen that are original all have milled checkered triggers and early features except for serialing the slide to match that according to www.1911A1.com stopped around 1140000. A 1944 I have, serial 16682XX is early in the group and has later features like the stamped and brazed trigger and grooved instead of checkered mainspring housing. It is early in the transition as it still has the wide hammer, checkered slide stop and checkered not stamped thumb safety. According to 1911A1.com, the change to the stamped parts ie: trigger, occurred "around 1670000". My pistol is a bit earlier than that but not by much being less than 1800 away from where the change is believed to have taken place. Mine in particular has never been through a rebuild program as all the stampings for ordnance and acceptance still show the bare metal edges where they were stamped. This lend lease being in the 1190000 area is way too early for those changes in my opinion.

[Scott Gahimer]

[QUOTE=Scott Gahimer]This Colt pistol is a 1944 pistol. Colt was at 1155000 +/- at the 1943/44 break. That is what "(1944 +/-1155000-1208673)" in Clawson's serial number chart means.

Clawson shows the block going up to 1208673 as going through 43 and 44 because there is no definite information on when it was completed. But according to the information that I do have on production from various manufacturers, the last serial in 1943 by Colt was 1208673.

With all due respect, you are mistaken. The actual Colt shipping records show the shipment of Dec. 30, 1943 as including (2000) pistols between serial numbers 1153000 and 1162000. The Colt records also show the first 1944 shipment on Jan. 5, 1944 including (1800) pistols between serial numbers 1155000 and 1164000.
The only reason Mr. Clawson doesn't pin the number down anymore precisely is because pistols were not shipped in strict numerical order after July 25, 1942 at s/n 799441.
Colt s/n 1208673 was shipped on May 3, 1944 according to the Colt shipping records.

Mr. Clawson personally researched the Colt shipping records. They are accurately reflected in detail in his 1991 and 1993 books.
The information I provided is correct according to the Colt records and Mr. Clawson's books.

Colt 1195742 was shipped between Mar. 22 and Mar. 30, 1944 according to the Colt factory shipping records.

I cannot vouch for the information on various web sites. However, I do know much of that type information is not correct. I see it all the time. Mr. Clawson's Colt shipping information came directly from the Colt factory records. It doesn't get any better than that. When you have the actual Colt shipping records to use for reference, who cares what some web site says?

[TattooPaul]

I trust my Clawson books more than website info. The only better source is Colt's itself… It's too bad the "big" Clawson books are out of print but even the little 3rd edition is a powerful resource and actually has Ithaca records not found in the big ones.

[Anatoliy]

One of my 1943 colts.Original finish.# 911304 .Like new!http://images35.fotki.com/v1197/fileQ6qK/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1064.jpg http://images36.fotki.com/v1181/fileNRN5/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1063.jpg

[texagun]

One of my 1943 colts.Original finish.# 911304 .Like new!http://images35.fotki.com/v1197/fileQ6qK/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1064.jpg http://images36.fotki.com/v1181/fileNRN5/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1063.jpg


Nice looking Colt, Anatoliy. And a hearty welcome to the forum. Do you know how that Colt got to Russia? Just wondering what the history of the gun might be?

[Anatoliy]

It is a pistol of my father -Russian Airborne Colonel.He died 12 years ago was stored at it in the safe and I think that from it never shot also cartridges to it is not present .This amazing M1911A1 is brand new.I LOVE THIS !Also I have a pair of Thompson M1928A1 SMG.Sorry for my English,i will hope you understand me...
http://images36.fotki.com/v1204/fileyg3o/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1021.jpg
http://images36.fotki.com/v1203/fileMTMZ/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1041.jpg
http://images35.fotki.com/v1198/filez0nN/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1033.jpg
http://images36.fotki.com/v1204/filecyg6/0453b/7/759922/6323915/1032.jpg

[rondawg]

Oh man, I LOVE those Thompsons!!!

[texagun]

Sorry for my English,i will hope you understand me...



I understand you fine. Thanks for the photos and the history behind them.
Texagun

[alphaquest]

i'm not an expert but based on the pictures i think the edges are crisp, the color match of upper and lower (even grip screws), close up lettering on right side of frame showing no runs -- makes me believe it's finish is original. better pics, better assesment though...

[Anatoliy]

Thank you for your interest! I have one more similar with other number.Want additional photos?http://images35.fotki.com/v1209/fileZsk0/0940f/7/759922/6323915/1030.jpg http://images35.fotki.com/v1206/photos/7/759922/6323915/1028-vi.jpg