Accidental Discharge ?

[rescueswimmer]

I have a SA loaded 1911. I was at the range tonight. She has about 1000 rounds threw her. I was not shooting up to par, so I had the safety on pointing down range and squeezed the trigger lightly, my father in law thought I was jerking my wrist and wanted to see what I was doing. I did not notice but he said he saw the hammer move. I then dropped the safety. BANG.......................... “I had to have had my finger on the trigger." I have been shooting so long that I never ever leave my finger near the trigger until I am going to pull the trigger. Therefore, I repeated the same action. Sure enough, the hammer clicked just barely but it still moved forward. I made sure my finger was no were near the trigger dropped the safety. BANG......... I dropped the mag cleared the round and inspected. Could not see anything and I tried for another 20 minutes and I could not get it to repeat the hammer drop nor the AD. I brought it home and detail stripped it tonight and everything looks normal but the sear is somewhat Sharp were it catches the hammer. Has anybody else ever run into a situation like this?

[CryingWolf]

Bad JuJu!!!

Make sure to do a safety check. The thumb safety is not blocking the sear movement!!!

Check out Cylinder & Slide safety check at,
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

Before beginning the safety checks- BE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT YOUR PISTOL IS UNLOADED!

The thumb safety should be checked first. To check the thumb safety, cock the hammer and engage the thumb safety - then firmly pull and release the trigger. The hammer must not drop. Disengage the thumb safety - the hammer should not drop. Do not touch the trigger again.

The next check is to determine if the thumb safety is holding the sear from partially disengaging from the hammer. ( I call this the click test - and remember - DO NOT TOUCH THE TRIGGER after disengaging the thumb safety.) After disengaging the thumb safety, place the hammer area of the pistol close to your so that you can hear the slightest click when you run this test. With the hammer area of the pistol held close to your ear, pull the hammer to the rear very slightly. Do not touch the hammer at all until you have placed the pistol near your ear. If you hear a very slight click when you touch the hammer this is the sound of the sear jumping back into full engagement with the hammer full cock hooks. Remember, you must engage the thumb safety, pull and release the trigger, disengage the thumb safety, holt the pistol near your ear, and then just touch the hammer slightly to the rear. If you hear a click the safety is allowing the sear to move slightly out of engagement with the hammer. The hammer hooks that the sear engages with are only .022" thick as made at the factory and if the pistol has had a trigger job done the hooks could have been shortened to .019". Any movement of the sear could leave the sear engaging the hammer with only a few thousandths. NOT SAFE! If you hear a click you must have the safety replaced or welded up and re-cut to stop any sear movement with the thumb safety engaged.

[John]

It's obvious that his safety is not blocking the sear completely. You need a new safety (and you will need to fit it to the pistol). If you are not comfortable at doing it yourself, you'd better return the pistol to Springfield.

[1911Tuner]

The only time in approaching 50 years of involvement with the 1911 that I've ever heard of that happening was when it happened to me. It's extremely rare, and most knowledgeable folk would argue that it can't happen due to the half-cock...but I know that it CAN happen under just the right circumstances...or just the wrong ones, as it were.

It would require that two malfunctions be operative. One, that the thumb safety allows enough sear movement to just barely clear the hammer hooks and stand them right on the edge. We're talkin' a +/- tolerance of about .002 inch here.

The second one is that the sear isn't getting a clean, positive reset, or the fact that the hammer hooks are holding it captive and it can't. If the sear spring is just a little weak or misadjusted...the sear doesn't have time to reset and grab the half-cock between the time that it gets loose from the hooks and the half-cock notch gets to it. The half-cock notch then taps the sear just past the engagement point, and forces the sear away from the hammer.

So, the first issue to address is the thumb safety engagement to prevent any sear movement when pulling the trigger. The second is to insure that the sear moves freely and smoothly, and that the spring is applying enough tension to snap it back toward the hammer.

[rescueswimmer]

Thanks for the replies. I tried what was mentioned above, Could not here any clicking but. It certainly sounds like the problem I was having. I'll go ahead and order a new safety.

[CryingWolf]

If the sear spring is just a little weak or misadjusted...the sear doesn't have time to reset and grab the half-cock between the time that it gets loose from the hooks and the half-cock notch gets to it.

Also check that sear spring, might need a little adjustment. Could have had a full auto event here, that would make for a bad day.

[BillyD]

I have fitted a couple of thumb safeties with no problems , it isn't rocket science, but I would send this one to Springfield and let them do it and check the rest of the firearm out good because, as 1911tuner has stated, you had 2 malfunctions and that would worry me

BillyD

[Hill]

This possibility sure makes an IWB crossdraw carry more exciting.

[Walver]

This possibility sure makes an IWB crossdraw carry more exciting.Wooo, that is scarry. I rely on the safety, cocked & locked all the time. My weapons do function properly and I have checked them out for that. However, the mental picture here is un-nerving.

[rescueswimmer]

It did funtion properly untill last night. I called SA and they said send her back and we will take a look at it.

[1911Tuner]

I tried what was mentioned above, Could not here any clicking but...

That pretty much confirms my suspicion that the barely-engaged hammer hooks are capturing the sear and preventing its movement. The "click" is the sound of the sear hitting the hammer as it resets into the hooks. If you're not hearing it...and owing to the fact that the gun slam-fired...that's about all it can be.

[BillyD]

You can't wrong sending it back, the only drawback to that is separation anxiety :D

BillyD

[rescueswimmer]

But I have my new Night Hawk GRP to keep me company.

[BillyD]

Nothing like a backup plan :)

[robot1911]

[QUOTE=1911Tuner]The only time in approaching 50 years of involvement with the 1911 that I've ever heard of that happening was when it happened to me. It's extremely rare, and most knowledgeable folk would argue that it can't happen due to the half-cock...but I know that it CAN happen under just the right circumstances...or just the wrong ones, as it were.

"This is a fairly common occurrence in law enforcement when the troops practice a lot. Drawing and snapping the thumb safety off enough times will eventually wear the safety lug to the point where this can...and does...happen. A little judicious work with a hammer on that lug will usually swage out enough material that the lug can be fit to the sear foot again...and again..."

Bob

[1911Tuner]

"This is a fairly common occurrence in law enforcement when the troops practice a lot. Drawing and snapping the thumb safety off enough times will eventually wear the safety lug to the point where this can...and does...happen. A little judicious work with a hammer on that lug will usually swage out enough material that the lug can be fit to the sear foot again...and again..."


Bob...I've had several that will drop the hammer to half-cock after pulling the trigger with the safety on, and then wiping it off...mostly well-worn USGIs...but only had the one that would actually fire the gun. This one is the only other one that's been documented in my own experience.

Have you known of any that would drop the hammer to the firing pin?

[robot1911]

Yep, usually one or 2 a year will actually hit the pin and fire. Most of the time the halfcock will catch it. And the best halfcock to do this is the 80 series Colts. The ledge stops the hammer just a little short of home...and scares the [heck] out of the shooter!
Many times they'll come in and say "Hey, I dropped the thumb safety and the hammer went forward but didn't fire." Then, if it's an 80, I show them that the hammer stopped just short of the firing pin..and they feel a bit better, knowing that their safety system works!

This also happens to Bullseye competitors when someone has done a trigger job that resulted in negative deflection of the hammer and there's just a little clearance of the thumb safety lug.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Wow. Good argument for not milkin' the trigger with the safety on.

[Hill]

Wow. Good argument for not milkin' the trigger with the safety on.


You mean good argument for carrying a Glock, right? :D

[1911Tuner]

You mean good argument for carrying a Glock, right?

Hill...Yer (expletive deleted) my Marine Corps!

[Hill]

:lm: Semper Fi!

[1911Tuner]

Hard chargin' Devil Dog that you are...I'm gonna overlook it this time...but if it happens again, I will make it my personal mission in life to make you wanna go dig up all your ancestors clear back to the middle ages just so you can explain how much you hate'em for not killin' themselves early and stoppin' the bloodline!

Am I makin' myself clear??

:D

Semper Fi, Dog.

[niemi24s]

This also happens to Bullseye competitors . . .
Really? I must be doing something wrong. Been shooting BE since about 1964 and all I've ever used the thumb safety for is to keep the grip safety in place, keep the plungers & spring in place and keep dirt out of that funny-shaped hole!:D

Cheers

[1911Tuner]

I must be doing something wrong. Been shooting BE since about 1964 and all I've ever used the thumb safety for...

Dan...Remind me to tell ya how to use the thumb safety to fudge on the trigger pull limit, and get a 1-pound, completely freakish letoff that not only won't follow or burst-fire...but will pass the inspection. All ya gotta do is practice a little sleight-of-hand and not get caught.

:D

[niemi24s]

...Remind me to tell ya how to use the thumb safety to fudge on the trigger pull limit,
Thanks Johnny, but I'd rather you wouldn't.

I can see it now: "Ready on the right, ready on th BLAM!".

And later, "Are ther any alibis? - except for Niemi, of course". :D

Cheers

[John]

:lm:

[1911Tuner]

Dan...Just keep yer booger hook off the loud button until the sights are on the bull.

FYI... a few guys were using this "Cheater" trigger until somebody got caught. The word spread, and the officials and ROs started doing the thumb safety click test to make sure the safeties were fully blocking the sears. Then, the unscrupulous lads started carrying their altered safeties in their pockets and their legal ones in the guns...and would sneakily switch them after the function tests. If they noticed a shooter applying his safety between shots...and saw him slip a finger onto the trigger...they'd stop him and do a click test. It got to be a real cat and mouse thing. Funny...

[niemi24s]

I suppose if a shooter really needed a trigger that light he/she could always switch to free pistol competition, but I don't think that ever really caught on here in the USA. One guy at the range said he'd handled a free pistol that would fire if it was merely tilted up about 45°! Trigger weights like that must be measured in grains!!

Cheers

[1911Tuner]

I suppose if a shooter really needed a trigger that light...

Not long ago, I fired an 1874 Sharps rifle manufactured by C. Sharps in .50-120 caliber. It had double set triggers, and when the set trigger was pulled...it staged the loud one to 1.5 ounces. That was plenty ticklish enough for me, thank ya very much.

Note to self, and advice to others who are fortunate enough to handle one of these fine rifles:

When preparing to fire a 50-120 Sharps with set triggers......even stoked with black powder...make double ab-so-lutely sure that the rifle is properly mounted in the pocket before even thinking about touching the trigger.

Don't ask...

[toolman]

Aawww, come-on Tooner, if you didn't want us to know ya' shouldn't a opened the door. Tell us about it!

[niemi24s]

Real big bruise, huh?

[log man]

Well, it seems possible to me from some of the comments, that if you fitted the thumb safety to allow the sear to move to a .001"-.003" of engagement by pulling the trigger when the safety was on, setting the stage, and then releasing the safety, now you could have a 2oz. trigger. :scared:

LOG

[BillyD]

log man, I think I have confused you, I fitted the grip safety today, The thumb safety was installed a few months ago and I have put several hun. rounds through it scsincehen and haven't had problems bebeforeoday. I think what some of the problem was, was that I hadn't COCOMPLETELYeassembled the gun. the slide was off which was allowing the thumb safety to go to high when i flipped it up. With the slide on the hammer doesn't even wiggle a little bit when you pull the ttrigger But I think I'll go ahead and get another one anyway, they are not exexpensivend VERY inimportantesespeciallyn a carry gun) their must still be a little to much clearance for the hammer to fall even if the slide is off

I will also say thanks for reminding me of the possibility of a unsafe ttrigger I probably would have not thought of that when I do test fire, I'll make sure to do a safety check first now ;)

BillyD

[1911Tuner]

Billy...When the safety overtravels..as it does with the slide off...the lug doesn't block the sear the way it does when the pistol is fully assembled, so sear movement is both possible and normal.

Letting the hammer fall to the frame without the slide in place is also damaging to the frame.

Logman...Correct. Fit the safety to allow enough sear movement to stage it...the same way that a double set trigger works. .002-.002 isn't enough for the sear to catch the hammer hooks .005 inch behind the tips. The hooks must be square, of course. Unaltered hooks would tend to pull the sear back IN toward the bottom of the hooks...and the sear breakaway angle is also a part of all that. If the sear rotates far enough to stand the hooks on the start of the breakaway angle, it would push the sear out of engagement...resulting in the safety dropping and the gun firing when the sear is staged...or a fall to half-cock when the safety is wiped off.

So...it's an exacting fit. It comes down to stoning and trying, and it's assumed that thumb safeties may be killed in the first few attempts. It does work nicely if well done, though.

[Karnaaj]

Hmm, maybe I'm doing something wrong here. As per those instructions (cock - safety on - pull trigger - safety off - pull hammer), I do get a distinctive click. (Not holding it to my ear, even.)(And by "pull", I mean "barely touch the hammer.)

However, I also get it if I skip the safety part. (Cock - safety on - pull trigger - pull hammer.)

But, if I don't touch the grip safety at all, either sequence results in no click.

Pistol is RIA 1911A2 (widebody A1), .45 ACP, with about 550 rounds though it (and a lot more dry-firing/snap-capping). Haven't had any problems in the mechanicals. Needless to say, it's not getting any live ammo until I verify what's going on...

[1911Tuner]

But, if I don't touch the grip safety at all, either sequence results in no click.


That's because the grip safety is functioning correctly. If the grip safety is properly blocking the trigger, it doesn't allow the trigger stirrup to bear on the disconnect and move the sear.

[Karnaaj]

Thought of this after I went to bed. <G> I'll start pulling bits off it when I get the chance on Sunday... see what I can see.

[Karnaaj]

Update - yup, there's a bitty little smidge of peening on the thumb-safety. A couple other minor things as well, but I'll just make sure to note everything when I set up the warranty work.