Extraction Question

[jtmo3]

Have a Colt Commander that's running fine. No issues. Just a question. Is it normal for a 1911 pistol to sometimes barely extract the last round of a mag. By that I mean, it always does extract it, it just seems that instead of throwing it off at 3 or 4 at a decent distance, sometimes it'll just barely throw it out of the gun. Using Colt factory mags. Just wondered if anyone else is seeing this happen once in a while? Thanks.

John

[1911Tuner]

While the last round out usually exits at a different angle...and lands out of the "group" as often as not...weak ejection that barely dribbles the case out of the port is indication of insufficient extractor tension.

[jtmo3]

Thanks Tuner. That's what I was wondering because if anything, the tension is on the loose side. Like I said, it never fails to eject, just sometimes, not always, it'll throw the last spent case maybe 12 inches from the gun, while the cases before it goes many feet.

Is this something I should "fix" or just leave alone since it is working? Thanks.

John

[1911Tuner]

Where'd toolman's post go? Hmmm

To answer his question: "How insufficient extractor tension can cause weak and/or erratic ejection."

The extractor holds the case in semi-suspension on the slide...but not nailed against the breechface. In order to get strong, positive ejection, the case has to hit the ejector smartly, and get punched loose from the extractor's grip.

If the tension isn't high enough to both keep the case firmly on the slide, and at the colrrect height...it "rolls with the punch" and dribbles out of the port.

If the case drops downward a little...the ejector doesn't hit the rim consistently in the same place...and the exit angle changes, and the pattern is erratic.

In pistols with extended ejectors, the rising round in the magazine doesn't get a chance to bump the in-transit case because the case reaches the ejector before the slide is far enough rearward to release the round and lit it come to feeding position...and thus has no influence on the case-in-waiting. The ejection strength and exit angle become solely the function of the extractor and the ejector, and ...because the ejector is fixed...the extractor has the greater influence on whence the case falls.

In pistols with standard "stub" type ejectors, the slide lets the round rise before the case reaches the ejector.

[toolman]

Where'd toolman's post go? Hmmm

I deleted the post. I started out thinkin' a weak mag spring might have something to do with the problem and after I posted I realized when the last round is ejected the mag is empty and unless you are using a rounded mag follower the last round doesn't get bumped from underneath.

But I sure appreciate the explanation.

Is this one of the reasons you prefer to set extractor tension on the heavy side of within an acceptable range?

I've got my extractor tension set fairly light, primarily because when I was adjusting the extractor tension, I was using some pretty old mag springs and that's what it took to get the extractor tension and mag springs in balance. I've since replaced the mag springs with Wolff 11 lb springs. Perhaps readjusting the extractor tension would help straignten out my erratic ejection?

[1911Tuner]

Is this one of the reasons you prefer to set extractor tension on the heavy side of within an acceptable range?


Partly. Although I don't worry too much about erratic ejection and/or how far from the gun the cases fall as long as they clear the port and I don't get hit. I set it a little high as added insurance. In an emergency, a failure to extract is the worst stoppage you can have...and since I tweak all pistols for reliability first, regardless of whether it's a range queen or a carry piece...the extractors all get the same treatment. If it fails to extract, it ain't gonna be 'cause the hook let go of the rim.

To cover the risk of failure to go to battery from overtensioned extractors...I "time" the extractor so as to delay full tension until the rim is almost in position and the round is nearly horizontal and on its way. Works right good...

[toolman]

To cover the risk of failure to go to battery from overtensioned extractors...I "time" the extractor so as to delay full tension until the rim is almost in position and the round is nearly horizontal and on its way. Works right good...

Now there's another one I've never heard of before. "Time" the extractor? I suppose you do this by controlling the angles of the extractor hook while you're tuning the extractor?

Care to elaborate again?

Or are we hijacking the OP's thread?

[niemi24s]

. . .unless you are using a rounded mag follower the last round doesn't get bumped from underneath.
Don't know how many different types of rounded followers are available, but the Metalform rounded follower I tried a few years ago does not bump up the last case being extracted.

All it does is prevent the last case from falling so far if the extractor completely loses control over it.

[1911Tuner]

Or are we hijacking the OP's thread?

Probably not, since it's related...

Timing the extractor is something that many installers do without even realizing it...by
cutting the light bevel at the bottom of the tensioning wall. The original extractors didn't have that, and it wasn't done very much. The extractors were bent for tension on the fairly rare occasions that they even needed it. The specs called for a certain amount of deflection...and military contract extractors had it in place, making extractor replacement pretty much a drop-in affair. If the bend wasn't there...the extractor was essentially out of spec.

The recent trend in extractors is to make'em a tick wider to allow for a slight channel mislocaton and to give the smith a little more leeway in the fine-tuning...hence the nearly universal need for the camming/timing bevel. It essentially delays the onset of full tension until the rim is higher on the breechface, and after the slide has broken the magazine's grip on the cartridge.

I dscovered that I could take it a step further, and apply a little more bend.

The pads...dogknots, if you prefer...are the mechanism used to "time" it. When the extractor is bent beyond a certain point, the outboard pad is in contact with the channel wall, with the butt and the forward pad in contact with the other side. The extractor wedges in tight, and the springing is from the pad forward instead of along the entire bend. Way YONDER too much tension. Some don't have to be bent very far to cause that. Others require more, depending on the channel's inside diameter.

By reducing the outboard pad, I can get a little clearance with added bend. .010 inch of reduction is about average, but it can vary a little to a smuch as .025 inch. When the rim starts to cam the extrator open, it has to rise higher on the breechface before the pad contacts the channel wall...so you get a gradual rise to normal tension before it hits the wall, and ...just at the point of breaking over to hortzontal...full tension is applied, when the slide's momentum is higher than it was when it first encountered the cartridge. The magazine spring doesn't have as much resistance in pushing the round up into the claw because it's delayed, and gives the mag spring a little more time to build speed and momentum.

Done correctly, the gun feeds almost like there's no round present...and some have remarked that they can't believe that my pistols are actually loaded as they go to battery...and the tension is so high that during a quick tension test, the pulled round barely dips as it clears the chamber. And forget trying to shake it off the slide. Shake it up, down, and sideways. It'll barely move, and sluggishly when it does.

If you try this, and get it right...the first thing you'll notice is that your empties fly about 50% farther than they did.

[toolman]

WOW! There's a lot more to tunin' and tensioning an extractor than I ever thought.

I'm going to try that.

Thanks a bunch.
Randy

[1911Tuner]

Randy...Take it slow, and be sure that the radius of the pad is the same as the original, or as close as you can make it. Take a couple thou off and play with it. It's as much a "feel" thing as it is any specific amount of pad reduction. There aren't really any hard, fast rules or dimensions. You fit the extractor to the individual gun. I recommend an oversized firing pin stop...fit for a light press fit as well.

You can also adjust the location of the tensioning wall relative to the center of the breechface with the front pad. Sometimes that's necessary if you can't get a workable tenison increase with more bend.