FTRB Problems

[keys1222]

Heres some pics of SWC nosing into the bottom of the barrel ramp when i use the slide stop. doesnt happen when i slingshot it, but then i get some 3 point jams. i suspect it because it looks like the previous owner took some off the frame under the barrel ramp, so there is a small lip the that notches the bullet. is this something i might be able to fix or should i send it somewhere??? any help would be greatly appreciated.

patrick

[log man]

PICTURES WOULD HELP :o

LOG

[keys1222]

Oops, it might help me if other people can see what im talking about wouldnt it!!!
here they are
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/keys1222/IMG_0234.jpg
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/keys1222/IMG_0235.jpg

[1911Tuner]

And your magazine of choice is... ?

Hard to see from the picture...Does the barrel have an integral or divorced ramp?

[keys1222]

springfield, shooting stars, kimber
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/keys1222/IMG_0238.jpg

the bottom pic above youll see where the bottom of the feed ramp notched the bullet
heres the frame
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/keys1222/IMG_0240-1.jpg

[niemi24s]

Looks to me like your barrel has an integral ramp and the bullet's striking the frame below the bottom of the barrel's ramp. It should never hit that far down.

Does the problem occur with all the magazines or just one of them?

I'm betting it's just one of them and that particular magazine needs a new spring to keep the cartridge from nosediving.

[1911Tuner]

The first suspect is the magazines. Stars ain't exactly the Creme de la Creme.

The integral ramp may also be a player if the angle is just a bit too steep. Integral ramps don't leave a lot of wiggle room. Either they're right, or they're wrong.

[keys1222]

it happens with all of them and it happens only when i use the slide stop. but if i put the barrel against a table it will work with the slide stop. so that tells me the rounds are pushing the barrel forward. should the barrel ramp go past the frame into the magwell? tuner if its the ramp would a new barrel be the easiest way to fix it?

[niemi24s]

This might be a zebra, but the SWC round in your pic looks like a handload and (although it's hard to see it clearly) the shoulder of the bullet seems a bit too far out of the case mouth.

How much shoulder (the 0.452" diameter part) extends out beyond the case mouth? It's normally only about 0.025 to 0.030".

I'm thinking maybe the OAL of the cartridge is too long. (Good zebra?)

[keys1222]

those in the pic are reloads and the shoulder on that one is 0.030" ive tried down to 0.025" with no imprvements. should i try 0.020" and see what happens??

[1911Tuner]

Let's not start huntin' horses in striped pajamas just yet. The problem is most probably with the magazines. Just because they're all new, or they all do the 3-Point shuffle, doesn't mean that it's NOT the magazines.

The Shooting Star's main drawback is that Devel follwer and a too-soft spring to properly support the front of the cartridge and keep the bullet nose pointed oriented toward the chamber. When the round takes a nose-dive, it basically creates the same situation as with a too-steep ramp. The Kelsey/Devel follower was a poor design in 1980, and it hasn't improved until Check-Mate revamped it with the dimpled Bull-Nose follower that's loosely based on it.

The simplest/cheapest approach is to order a Wolff 5% Extra-Power mag spring from Brownells and try it in all your magazines. It essentially turns the Star into a Powermag, and it might work.

There are two Wolff springs listed. One is the 11-pound spring for the 7-round magazine with the standard design follower. The other one is an 8-round, 5% extra power spring designed to work with the Devel follower. The 8-round spring is the one you want. Be careful to get the part number right, because the 11-pound spring doesn't fare as well with that follower, and will only let you load 7 rounds...and in some magazines...only 6.

Since this is an integral-ramped barrel, I think maybe we should let you try one of the Tripp Cobras to see if it'll help with what is a known itchy spot in some guns with that setup. If the angle isn't just right...and there's only a narrow window...then it causes problems. Since the usual fix is to let a smith rework or rebarrel such guns...and some folks just don't have the money to keep throwing at a delinquent...if these can be handled with a switch in magazine designs, it's the most logical approach. Simple is good...

Let me get with Virgil to see if it's okay to send one of his test magazines that I've got here. I'm almost through with this phase, and I can finish up with three. Two are in the field, and should be returning shortly...so I may have 5 to work with.

[keys1222]

tuner thanks for the advice. il try a few of the wolff springs to see if that helps, hopefully it does. and as for the cobras i would be more that happy to try one out. thanks again
patrick

[1911Tuner]

I've got a PM enroute to Virgil. He's a busy man, and it may take him a day or two to respond. If he okays it, I'll send one to see if it squashes your bug. All ya gotta do is report your results.

Meanwhile...Try downloading the magazines by one round. If it helps...then it's the magazines.

[Hill]

Good plan. I approve. :)

[niemi24s]

those in the pic are reloads and the shoulder on that one is 0.030" ive tried down to 0.025" with no imprvements.
Your handloads are not too long then. My too-long-handload cause was just a shot in the dark based on your saying all the magazines did it and what I thought I saw in the pic. Me wrong.

. . .should i try 0.020" and see what happens??
I wouldn't bother. The cause is undoubtedly something else - most probably the magazines or . . .

Zebra#2: The magazine catch. If the catch does not lock the magazine all the way up inside the magazine well, the top round in the magazine will be lower than normal because the magazine is lower than normal. When stripped from the magazine it will thus contact the feed ramp lower than normal. Yours contact the feed ramp lower than normal. So . . .

Q: When locked in place, how far down is a magazine from the fully up position?

[1911Tuner]

Zebra#2: The magazine catch. If the catch does not lock the magazine all the way up inside the magazine well...

That can be the straw that broke the camel's back in guns with bad feed ramp and feed to barrel ramp geometry...but is only rarely the sole cause. My 1919 GI Colt locks the magazines in fully .050 inch low/below flush with the bottom of the grip frame...yet the gun eats hardball, hollowpoints, and LSWCS from the old "Hardball" magazines and the tapered hybrids with equal relish.

[keys1222]

tuner tried out the cobras and the still the same thing. took it to the local smith and he said that he would need to build up the frame to get a good transition? is that possible on an alloy frame?? and do the rounds actually contact the frame?? yes i know im asking alot of questions but i would hate it not be the problem.

[Greyswindir]

Try loading the rounds so that only the thickness of a fingernail goes past the rim of the case.

[keys1222]

greys tried that with no improvements.

i just read the tech. issue about 3-point jams, and im beginning to wonder if it isnt riding the link? i just dont know this is aggravating. im almost ready to send it back to springfield and have them fix it. anyone have anyother suggestions????

[Greyswindir]

Hey Keys,

I think you should send it back to Springfield. It's probably ramp geometry or that cursed ramped barrel! You could still wait and see what a few other people suggest. It couldn't hurt. Tuner might be able to help you out yet!

[1911Tuner]

Keys...Just luck of the draw, I guess. Sometimes a switch in magazine diesgns can compensate for a ramp that's a little out of optimum spec, but sometimes they're just too far out of the window.

Aluminum can be heli-arc welded, but my feeling is that a steel ramp insert would be the best approach.

Springfield will probably just replace the frame...or possible the whole gun. I don't know if it's their policy to use a blank frame and transfer your existing serial number...or if you'll have to handle it like a new gun and jump theough the legal hoops for the transfer.

Anyway...Since you have the Cobra, go ahead and use it for a while and write up a report on how it performs. Let some other shooters try it, too. Don't loan it out, though. Several of the guys I've let use the ones in the test group have indicated that they'll steal'em if I turn my back for a minute. :D

[keys1222]

local smith said he had it running and when i showed up it wouldnt feed a thing! he basically cleaned up the ramp to make it straighter. now enter the cobra mag fed HPs like they were ball, had some issues with my reloads thou. will try to change them a bit to see if it improves. he also mentioned throating the barrel and lightly radius the top of the ramp into the chamber, i said to hold off on that. remember tuner advising against it. he still has it should i tell him to throat the barrel??

thanks everyone for the help
patrick

[keys1222]

niemi
sorry i missed your question the mags i was using sit flush with the frame. funny thing you mention the mag catch cause the top of the base of the cobra mag sits .095 lower than the frame on my SA mil-spec and it feeds so smooth i thought it didnt pick up a round! will have to measure on the SA champion when i get it back.

patrick

[Greyswindir]

Hey Keys,

Who's your smith?

[keys1222]

just a local guy

[Greyswindir]

Well, be careful, he may wind up doing more harm then good. Your throat is probably fine, I would hold off until you gather some more data/proof as to what is happening.

[1911Tuner]

he also mentioned throating the barrel and lightly radius the top of the ramp into the chamber, i

If he means the barrel ramp...a light radius won't hurt and could help. If he means the feed ramp...ask him to hand you the gun, and run...don't walk...run out the door with it.

[Greyswindir]

I think he meant the barrel ramp Tuner.

[keys1222]

whats the difference between a barrel ramp and a feed ramp on a integral ramped barrel????? probably the dumbest question youve heard isnt it

[Greyswindir]

The integral ramped barrel is a lot different. The frame of the gun is cut to allow for the integral ramp. A "normal" barrel has a small ramp leading up to the chamber. The bullet shouldn't touch this ramp, it should go over the edge and into the chamber. I personally don't like the integral barrel ramp as it really isn't needed. I have no idea who came up with it any why. But it was probably invented in the hopes of making the feeding more reliable. If the pistol is built properly feeding shouldn't be an issue anyway. Tuner could probably give you a better answer than I can. I'm sure he'll be along shortly.

Oh...I wonder if you mean the frame's feed ramp?

[keys1222]

here a pic of where he was indicating. GREYS couldnt pass on the price, and now i dont care for the integral ramp.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/keys1222/IMG_0238-1.jpg

[1911Tuner]

The integral ramped barrel is a lot different

Ah! Missed that part. That's what I get for not readin' the whole thread. :rolleyes:

Those things present special problems sometimes. They really aren't neessary in a .45 caliber pistol anyway, and if the angle isn't juuuuust...SO...they cause problems.
Useful with hot-rod mid-bores, and that's actually what gave'em their start...when the shooters were pumping up .38 Super ammo to near proof-level pressures with heavy bullets. They needed all the case head support they could get...and the integral ramp provided that. It's a bit easier to work around the angle with the mid-bores than with the fat, old .45 cartridge that we all know and love.

Abominations! Abominations in the sight Of John Moses, I say!

*coff coff* Anyway...

Several times I've had to cut a small secondary angle at the top of the ramp. I think some smiths refer to it as a "booster" angle. You can afford to lose a little of the full head support with the .45 round, and it can work well. Gotta be careful, though. If you're not familiar with what the angle should be, or how it should be located relative to the bullet nose...you can screw it up in short time. The pros understand it, and have the equipment to do it right. I've got that weird angle thing that I see...so I've got an edge when I have to cut it with a scrape. Others may not be so endowed.
Go slow...Be patient...Cut small...Test feed often.

[keys1222]

Tuner if you ever need to adopt a 29yr old son in Kansas let me know. i was thinking of just polishing it so i cant get carried away and remove too much. i have a unramped barrel, how does the two compare to each other?? can i use the unramped one as a guide when i add the "booster" angle to the ramped one???

once again THANKS
patrick

[Greyswindir]

Ahhh....

Now I remember...more support! For the 38 super and the like? Maybe the 10MM also?

[1911Tuner]

can i use the unramped one as a guide when i add the "booster" angle to the ramped one???


No! The barrel ramp angle on the divorced feed and barrel ramp setup sometimes varies a lot from gun to gun. Today's manufacturers seem have a penchant for being a bit liberal with Browning's original specs, and do as they please. I'd start with a light, shallow cut...about 30 degrees...a small bevel, and test-feed the gun.

Sometimes that's all it takes...but don't count on it. You may need to take it deeper into the ramp, and change it to 45 degrees...and then you start to approach the head support area of the chamber. It can get a little tricky.

I'm a little hesitant to advise you to do this, because...as noted...the integral ramped barrels sometimes present problems that don't respond to general fine-tuning practices.

Before you cut anything...Try a magazine with tapered feed lips...like the CMI "Hybrid" magazine. I've seen'em turn a finicky feeder completely around more than once.

[Greyswindir]

Hi Tuner,

I've been hearing a lot of talk about the quality of those Tripp Research Cobra mags or whatever they are called. They claim to even make a 10 round mag feed reliably. Do you have any experience with these mags? I think the follower is supposed to be a really superior design....supposedly.

[1911Tuner]

The Cobras are excellent magazines. I've been testing a small lot that Virgil sent to me for the purpose of the tests. There's a full report on the magazine board here.

No 10-rounders though.

[bearandoldman]

If I am in a situation where the gun is enpty in a stressful situation I will go for the second gun. My mentor, a well know ex law officer taught me to just throw it down and you can get the second gun faster thatn you can reload the empty on. I always carry 2 but he alwayss abd I do mean always carries 3.

[Greyswindir]

Wow! three different guns?

That's a lot of hardware...where does your buddy live...Palestine?

Tuner,

Meaning you didn't test the 10 round mags or meaning they didn't pass your tests?

[1911Tuner]

Meaning you didn't test the 10 round mags or meaning they didn't pass your tests


Didn't get any to test.

[bearandoldman]

Wow! three different guns?

That's a lot of hardware...where does your buddy live...Palestine?

Tuner,

Meaning you didn't test the 10 round mags or meaning they didn't pass your tests?

His name is Evan P Marshall and he has written 3 books and has written a lot of articles for various gun magazines. He spent 20 years on the Detroit Police Department and set up their SWAT teams. He retired in 1989 as a Sergeant in Homicide and has worked for various Federal agencies training them in ant terrorist tactics. I believe in the man as he has been there 11 times and still walks and talks.

[1911Tuner]

Len...There's an old saying.

"If you don't need to carry a gun...carry one anyway. If you need to carry a gun...carry two."

Words to live by.

[bearandoldman]

Len...There's an old saying.

"If you don't need to carry a gun...carry one anyway. If you need to carry a gun...carry two."

Words to live by.

Tuner, you can bet your last dog cookie on that without fear of losing it. Evan ran an indoor range for about 2 years near here and we spent a lot of time chatting and swapping lies between shooting session. He and several self defense instructor who have been there swear by 2 or more. Since spending a lot of time with him I never leave home without them an SA Micro Compact that will run reliably on most any ammo in the strong side rear and a Kel Tec .380 in the other side pocket and an extra mag for each as Evan says to reload the guns agate the altercation is over.

[1911Tuner]

I believe in the man as he has been there 11 times and still walks and talks.

A friend of mine knew the late Charles Askins. For those of you who don't know who he was...Askins was a consummate killer who walked the walk in some of the world's most dangerous places.

As related to me by my friend, while attending an "action match" of some description and game plan...Askins watched with great interest until the games were concluded.
During the action, he made comments like: "Good shot!" and "He's pretty fast."

Then...after it was all over, my friend asked him what he thought. Askins frowned a little and responded matter-of-factly:

"It looks like a lot of fun, but ya know...If those had been real gunfights, there probably ain't a shooter here who'd still be alive."

[Greyswindir]

Is Virgil planning to send you any of those ten rounders Tuner? I'm just curious if they will run reliably. I still plan on sticking with my 7 rd. mags and my 8 rd. mags. But if there is a ten rounder that works, I'd be interested in picking up a few of them. More shots is always a nice thing to fall back on.

[log man]

Hilton Yam, recommends the CMC Power mags for "99% of your shooting tasks" he of course is referring to tactical use. Only thing wrong with 10 rd. mags is concealment issues. I have used CMC Power 10 round mags without a mag related problem in Springfields, Kimbers, Colts, Para's, and Sig GSR, for thousands of rounds.

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Thanks Log,

Have you ever used the Tripp cobra ten rounders?

[log man]

No, I haven't used the Cobra 10s, would've mentioned it since it was on topic. You can buy two CMC Power mags for the price of one Cobra. And since I don't have any problems with them, more is better in this case. Perfect has always been good enough. :)

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Log,

I've heard so many bad things about Chip McCormick mags that I rarely think about buying them...but...I think I have three mags that may be Chip McCormick mags and they all run fine in my guns. I'd like to positively identify these mags...they (three mags) came with a used Kimber that I bought about two years ago. One of the mags has a patent pending stamp on the follower with some numbers and I think I've seen some Colt mags like that also, I just don't know for sure. When I get some new batteries for my digital camera I'll post some pics of these mags, and maybe you can tell me who may have made these magazines...

Proof is in the pudding, so if they work I don't care who's name is on them!

[log man]

People don't like a lot of things these days. Early on I was told they where no good because the follower slides forward at empty. Talked to CMC and they explained that was part of the design, so as to make it hard to release the slide stop without removing the mag first, kind of a reminder that it's time for a fresh mag. Works for me. I wouldn't however recommend them for an alloy framed gun.

I believe the mags you're referring to are blue, the CMC Power mags are stainless steel. The follower with the pat. nos. are OEM mags and the pat. no. refers to the CMC Patent #4,446,645.

LOG

[1911Tuner]

Is Virgil planning to send you any of those ten rounders Tuner?


I dunno. That'd be his call. I just test what he sends. I've got a few interesting magazines that are yet to be put to the test. Odd design. I'll report later.

Hilton Yam, recommends the CMC Power mags

Forsooth! I guess I'd better run out and git some!

Yam also recommends replacing extractors every 5,000 rounds. I'd venture a bet that the magazines he's using and espousing make that necessary, though trying to make him understand why would likely be futile.

[log man]

Forsooth! I guess I'd better run out and git some!

Yam also recommends replacing extractors every 5,000 rounds. I'd venture a bet that the magazines he's using and espousing make that necessary, though trying to make him understand why would likely be futile.

Ah, Tuner I suspect you have just about enough mags already. Yam also likes the Cobra mag and suggests putting the Tripp Super 7 follower and spring in the CMC Power mag tube for "excellent results". Different people have different experiences and objectives, and therefore different recommendations. Most of his intervals of use are conservative by the nature of his motivation.

LOG

[1911Tuner]

I believe the mags you're referring to are blue, the CMC Power mags are stainless steel.


I know exactly what Powermags are. They have the Kelsey/Devel followers, just like the Shooting Stars. The follower was a bad design in 1980, and it hasn't been improved much with the addition of a heavy spring and a bumper pad. I won't allow'em in the yard.

[log man]

Tuner, ya old coot! That explanation was for your friend Greyswindir, who asked about the follower with the pat. nos. Careful know I'm older than you and not as smart. :)

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Yes...they are blue.

So they are definitely CMC mags then? Also Tuner...the Devel follower is the bent/split design? Man I wish I had some batteries! Then I would have to use my lack of imagination! I was hoping the one with the pat # was a Colt hybrid or something. I think I may have a pic of a colt with the patent numbers, etc. I'll post it if I do.

Okay here is the pick:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x169/tightgroups/Para_MF_Wilson_SA_Colt_MF_Colt_Maga.jpg

You'll notice the one with the patent and numbers on the follower. The person who took this pic has this mag labeled as a Colt magazine...So is it a CMC or a Colt?

Just right click on the pic, then hit save as and you'll see what I'm talking about...manufacturer names from left to right!

[log man]

Greyswindir, I don't know that CMC made them, I suspect that the tube and follower could have been made by anyone, the pat. no. is in respect to CMC for the patent and a second party would have to pay a royalty to use that design follower. Or it could have been made by them and the OEM wanted their name on the floor plate.

Oh, pictures are up and you can see that the pat. no. is CMC's no.

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Alright....thanks Log.

I wonder why the guy had this mag labeled as a Colt? Everybody makes mistakes, no big deal. Well, that proves the CMC's that I have work fine. Mystery solved!

[log man]

Alright....thanks Log.

I wonder why the guy had this mag labeled as a Colt? Everybody makes mistakes, no big deal. Well, that proves the CMC's that I have work fine. Mystery solved!

It could well be a Colt mag they used the traditional dimple follower in their 7 rd. mags and the CMC style with the nos. in the 8rd. mags.

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Ahhh....

And they are 8 rd. mags, but I think Kimber ships their guns with CMC mags, correct?

[log man]

Ahhh....

And they are 8 rd. mags, but I think Kimber ships their guns with CMC mags, correct?


Ahh.....post #56 :D

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Wow Log!

You're older than Tuner? What was it like back then? I bet those scientists are wrong about the dinosaurs, aren't they? :D

[log man]

Wow Log!

You're older than Tuner? What was it like back then? I bet those scientists are wrong about the dinosaurs, aren't they? :D

Tuners just an uppity kid, yeah it was really something, horse and carriage, flintlocks, now we have automobiles and aeroplanes and thank JMB 1911s! Ahh...are we on topic?

LOG OH, it hurts o......

[bearandoldman]

Tuners just an uppity kid, yeah it was really something, horse and carriage, flintlocks, now we have automobiles and aeroplanes and thank JMB 1911s! Ahh...are we on topic?

LOG OH, it hurts o......

I got about 20 years on Jounny aka Tuner, bet I got a few on you also?

[Greyswindir]

I must be all pink skinned and shiny compared to you guys! What do you guys consider old? 80? 90? When dust is your friend you know you're old! :dead_hors

[log man]

I got about 20 years on Jounny aka Tuner, bet I got a few on you also?
Yes, once again I must concede. You win the bet, hands down. :)

LOG

[bearandoldman]

I must be all pink skinned and shiny compared to you guys! What do you guys consider old? 80? 90? When dust is your friend you know you're old! :dead_hors

Not really sure what old is yet but will let you know when I get there I am now closer to 80 than I am to 70 soooooo?

[Greyswindir]

Sorry,

Just fooling around, you're only as old as you feel. I learn more for experienced people than from the young guys, not to mention I just lost my Grandfather and miss him a bunch. He was a police officer and a great fisherman!

[bearandoldman]

Sorry,

Just fooling around, you're only as old as you feel. I learn more for experienced people than from the young guys, not to mention I just lost my Grandfather and miss him a bunch. He was a police officer and a great fisherman!

You only are as old as you feel, numbers do not mean that much, really!!

But then there are those days you feel older than the numbery say, also. You have to take the good with the bad and keep on trucking.

[keys1222]

you guys aint old. i was a quarter century old 4 years ago. now thats what you call old. if it wasnt for you old timers how would i get any advice???. update on the FRTB local smith barely reworked the ramp to get it working. even with my cheap mags, cobras make it work even better. range report on the cobra soon.
thanks again
patrick

[Greyswindir]

Patrick,

Good luck with your pistol! And I strongly agree...our elders give us quality information without all the rhetoric that goes along with the younger guy's posts, like me! :D