Ed Brown Hardcore

[venison]

I asked Ed Brown what differences their normal products from their Hardcore line. They told me that other than the lifetime warranty the external specs are the same.

Is there any difference other than that?

[lanceriley]

I think the hardcore parts use better material. although I can't prove it. how else would they offer lifetime warranty.?

[wichaka]

Some of the Hardcore line is machined out of bar stock steel, just have to read the fine print.

[1911Tuner]

Some of the Hardcore line is machined out of bar stock steel, just have to read the fine print.

Yup. You'll notice that Brownells carries two outwardly identical Hardcore slotted rowel hammers. One is machined from barstock and the other is cast, and in a side-by-side comparison, it's hard to spot the difference. There isn't a lot of difference in price. Read the fine print.

[venison]

I thought most small parts were machined from barstock but, after reading many posts from this forum, I realised that most parts were actually cast--if not MIM.

I read somewhere that cast parts could be very good if not better than machined from barstock for as long as the quality control was severe. As QC is rather expensive I doubt I'm getting it on let's say a $20 part. But then I'm no metallurgist nor I have any experience in modern manufacturing processes--nor in the old ones.

I wanted to buy some parts as to "improve" my Norc. I thought that parts being made on the max. side of the specs would be, either, more reliable or last longuer. But now, I'm not so sure as Norc factory parts are forged steel yet they have more ample tolerances.

As I saw that the trigger unit (sear, disconnect, etc) is somehow well build I was more interested in a "true round" barrel bushing, a slide stop (frame holes .2035"L / .2015"R approx. Factory slide stop .1985"), a firing pin, and a firing pin stop.

I was looking for parts like: Ed Brown firing pin and firing pin stop, EGW barrel bushing and slide stop, a set of Wolf springs and, maybe, a set of pins from, either, Ed Brown or EGW.

As most of those parts seem to be cast while others are ss (416ss. Is it true it may shear off?), now, I don't know what to do. Wouldn't it be better to not fix what ain't broke?

[John]

Somehow I think Norinco's parts are quite good. I mean except from the barrels which have been known to cause problems, I haven't heard anything bad about the rest of the parts (sears, hammers etc). The bushing, if it is loose, call EGW with your measurements, they'll make a bushing to your specs, and even dehorn it for you, all for 20$. Firing pin stop, I would also get the EGW one, with the square bottom and fit it. I do not think you need to change the firing pin, I've never heard anything bad about these.

As for the slide stops, Brown is OK.

[1911Tuner]

Venison...That a part is listed as a casting is not to be necessarily and automatically taken as "junk" part. Strides have been taken in the last 25 years in the investment casting process, and some of it is very good. Some, even better than a comparable machined steel part. Like MIM..not all things are well-suited to it, though. In order for a casting to equal the same load, shear, and stress yield of steel, it has to be heavier in the cross-section because the material is naturally less dense than steel.
Advances in the metallurgy has closed that gap a lot...but it's still an issue.

Bottom line is...If the yield strength is adequate for the application...and assuming no defects in the material...it doesn't matter what the process for making the part is.
If it's strong/tough enough...it's enough. The hitch in the getalong is the defect issue. If there's a defect in it, it's often on the inside, and invisible. Once the mad scientists get it worked out to the point that they can virtually guarantee no internal defects...machined barstock will go the way of the dinosaur.

We may not particularly like investment cast and MIM, but there's one thing you can be sure of. It's here to stay.

[venison]

Thanks a lot for your answers! :)

Are there any slide stops, triggers, and thumb safeties checkered? I liked the EGW one because it was checkered but they no longuer make them like that.

[Greyswindir]

EGW is coming out with a solid slide stop soon (CNC machined). It will also be void of any seerations or checkering on the pad, a "blank slate" for gunsmiths to machine there own designs on them...scallops, golfball pattern, etc. There OS SS is actually cast...investment cast? Don't know.

George ran a test and machined some slide stops out of aluminum (6160 or something?) I forget what the specific kind of aluminum he used was, but they were CNC'd and came out looking beautiful. He decided to install one in a gun just to see what would happen...Not even the slightest show of being beat up or deformed in any way! His theory was most SS break from guns that are riding the link, not from the SS not being able to take the abuse of the crashing.

-greyswindir.

[John]

Good luck finding a checkered slide stop. Last I heard, Ivan and Ray at RIA may have some, check out with them. Ed Brown used to have a checkered slide stop, which was a beauty, but they do not make them any more.

[Greyswindir]

I think King's might make a checkered slide stop, but the word to pay attention to is "might."

[OD*]

Several years ago I bought two Hardcore® slide stops, one stainless and one blued, they were both cast.

[HardBoiled]

Several years ago I bought two Hardcore® slide stops, one stainless and one blued, they were both cast.

Same here. I bought one last fall and you can clearly see the casting mark. Side by side it's impossible to tell it from the one that came on my Springfield Mil-Spec, which ironically, I bought it to replace.

[lanceriley]

so what's the difference with the ed brown non-hardcore parts?

[Greyswindir]

Hi,

Apparently they don't offer a guarantee for the non-hardcore parts, go figure. I thought (from the earlier posts) that the hardcore products were made from barstock?

[wichaka]

Seems like only the hammers are barstoxk now.

I have a SS Hardcore slide stop from Brown that's checkered and barstock, any takers? :D

[Greyswindir]

I think the extractors are barstock also wichaka, but I'm not 100% positive that that is the case.

[CZJedi]

Did anybody notice that the Ed Brown web page states, "Each part labeled Hardcore has a special heat-treating process which allows us to make these parts super tough, and we can guarantee them for life against breakage. Not guaranteed if hard chrome plated."

So the only difference is the heat-treat process; otherwise, they are the same as the regular parts. Why, though, would hard chroming it void the guarantee? After reading that, I'll go with the SVI slide stop, which is milled, not cast like the Ed Brown.

[1911Tuner]

Ed Brown Hardcore extractors aren't cast.

[Pappy]

Did anybody notice that the Ed Brown web page states, "Each part labeled Hardcore has a special heat-treating process which allows us to make these parts super tough, and we can guarantee them for life against breakage. Not guaranteed if hard chrome plated."

So the only difference is the heat-treat process; otherwise, they are the same as the regular parts. Why, though, would hard chroming it void the guarantee? After reading that, I'll go with the SVI slide stop, which is milled, not cast like the Ed Brown.

I remember long ago that chrome plating motorcycle/auto wire wheels would weaken the spokes. Seems there is something in the process that attacks the underlying metal. Hrdrogenation (sp) or some such.

[Greyswindir]

Hey Pappy,

Don't they use a small amount of heat in the Chroming process, or nickel plating, etc? If they do, then that would anneal the heat treating and the metal would loose its temper, becoming softer.


Sound about right to you? At least it "may" be possible, but the heat is probably very gentle, if any is used at all.

-greyswindir.

[Pappy]

I doubt it's the heat that's the problem. There's a chemical action going on....dang, wish I could, ah, here it is;

Hydrogen embrittlement (http://www.moldmakingtechnology.com/articles/040208.html)

[Greyswindir]

Pappy,

I read a little bit of the first few paragraphs, fairly interesting stuff. So...is that what happens when plating metals and is it related to what we're discussing (directly related I mean!) In other words, does the hydrogen thing take place during chrome plating?

thanls.

[1911Tuner]

The question of plating aside...between the Brown Hardcore and the Wilson Bulletproof...in MY experience, the Wilson is a little better extractor. A little. Assuming proper prep and fit, the difference in performance is non-existent, and the long-term durability is negligible. This also assumes that the magazines used don't malfunction and allow rounds to push-feed on a regular basis.

Though I've never used one, I would expect that the Nowlin Tuff-Stuff would give similar results.

The Wilson Heavy-Duty extractor matches the performance of both, and trumps'em on durability...both as to longevity and maintaining tension over the long haul.

And it's a buck cheaper...

[Greyswindir]

Hey...that buck matters to me, gas being as high as it is!

I only own one Wilson part, a Wilson Bulletproof sear spring.

[Pappy]

Pappy,

I read a little bit of the first few paragraphs, fairly interesting stuff. So...is that what happens when plating metals and is it related to what we're discussing (directly related I mean!) In other words, does the hydrogen thing take place during chrome plating?

thanls.

A quote from the article;

"Most people in the industry have heard the term hydrogen embrittlement, but not everybody may be aware of its seriousness. Hydrogen embrittlement is a brittleness of metal and chrome layer structures, resulting from the occlusion of hydrogen or condition of low ductility, which itself results from hydrogen absorption and the internal pressure developed subsequently. Basically, the hydrogen is interfering with the metal's ductility, which in turn makes the chrome build-up weaker and greatly increases the chances of breaks or cracks in the chromed area."

So, I would stay away from chromed stress areas in a pistol.

[CZJedi]

A quote from the article;

"Most people in the industry have heard the term hydrogen embrittlement, but not everybody may be aware of its seriousness. Hydrogen embrittlement is a brittleness of metal and chrome layer structures, resulting from the occlusion of hydrogen or condition of low ductility, which itself results from hydrogen absorption and the internal pressure developed subsequently. Basically, the hydrogen is interfering with the metal's ductility, which in turn makes the chrome build-up weaker and greatly increases the chances of breaks or cracks in the chromed area."

So, I would stay away from chromed stress areas in a pistol.

With hard chroming being so popular, one would think that this would be more of an issue. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

[1911Tuner]

With hard chroming being so popular, one would think that this would be more of an issue


Less of a concern when the steel is thick in the cross-section. Extractors being relatively thin and long are more affected. Investment casting works pretty well for a sear or a slidestop. Not so well for an extractor or a small pin.

[wichaka]

I've used Wilson, Brown, and Nowlin.........but I always find myself prepping the hook on all of them.

I'm with Tuner, I like the Wilson, but have been using the Nowlin quite a bit lately with good results as well.

[Greyswindir]

Tuner,

What did you mean when you said:

less of a concern when the steel is thick in the cross-section

I always thought a cross-section as something used as a baseline, or a material that had been sliced to show the inner workings of a material.

Please explain.

[1911Tuner]

What did you mean when you said:

Thick rather than thin.

[venison]

Would these parts made by Brazos Custom Gunworks be comparable to those of Ed Brown or Wilson Combat?

Slide stop: https://1943253218.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=23
Firing pin: https://1943253218.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=68
Firing pin stop: https://1943253218.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=66
Extractor: https://1943253218.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=67

The specific links above have been given to me by that store.

I'm asking so because they have lower prices than the other two brands. May they be cast or MIM?

[Greyswindir]

Hi,

I've never heard of Brazos custom Gunworks before, but the parts look alright and the prices (especially the extractor) are right. I'd want to talk to a few people who have used their parts before and have a high round count on said parts, so we know if they can stand up to the test of time.

Some are machined, others , like the SS, are probably investment cast...though Brazos said the SS pin was machined after the casting process, interesting.

[auto45]

Unless it "says" barstock or "forged", I always assume it's cast or MIM.

I think it's easy to tell because when a manufacturer sells different parts, such as EB, some parts say barstock, others do not. If they were "barstock", they would say so IMO.

Price also is "telling". The Brazos slidestop is $18.00. I think it's safe to assume it's not barstock or forged since other brands that are barstock range in the $35-$50 range. I'm not saying which one is better, as Tuner mentioned, simply one process is more expensive than the other.

[Greyswindir]

auto45,

I've never heard of a forged slide stop? Who actually makes a forged slide stop? You're probably right, they would mention it if the part was made from bar stock. Price isn't necessarily the test of a quality part. EGW lathe turns custom bushings for just $20.00 bucks!

Usually, slide stops are investment cast not forged. If they were forged then they would have to be machined. I only know of one parts maker that does that, or rather is planning to CNC machine slide stops...EGW.

[CZJedi]

SVI Infinity makes a forged slide stop; costs a bit of money ($60 for steel; $66 for stainless), but it is well made with a great polished finish to it.

[Greyswindir]

Nice!

Probably a superior quality slide stop!

[1911Tuner]

I've never heard of a forged slide stop? Who actually makes a forged slide stop?

All the USGI pistols and commercial Colt Government Models had machined barstock stops. Colt's stops are still machined barstock, though the quality has slipped a little since the ones produced in the late 60s.

Wilson's Bulletproof stops are machined.

[Greyswindir]

I wonder why EGW uses investment cast slide stops? I talked to George from EGW and he is going to start CNC machining his slide stops, hopefully from forged steel. He's also going to offer the SS in different sizes, from increments .200"-.206" or somewhere there abouts. The new EGW slide stops will also be void of any checkering or serrations, to offer a blank canvas to customers, more for the big pistolsmiths I think, so they can do whatever they want to them. Snak skin, golfballing,scallops, checkering, etc.

Either way we'll all benefit from a machined SS, especially offered in different pin diameters.

[1911Tuner]

I wonder why EGW uses investment cast slide stops?


Nothin' wrong with a good investment casting...as long as it is good.

The straight skinny is that...as long as the part will stand up to the stresses that it's subjected to...it doesn't matter what it's made of. The trick with investment castin and the MIM process...is having air voids in the material. Hardness can be tested. Voids aren't easily detected. If a void occurs in or around an area of concentrated stress within the part...usually a corner...it will fail.

[Greyswindir]

That makes perfect sense.

Now, don't come down too hard on me for this comment:

MIM, if done right, is supposed to be the best casting process around and makes a superior part! Kimber has the largest MIM foundry in the country so their is a good chance other 1911 manufacturers are getting their MIM parts directly from Kimber.

That shouldn't sound so far fetched to people, considering that Wilson and Kimber frames used to be exactly the same! I'm not sure if they are still using Jericho frames or even if Jericho is still in business! But back when Kimber came out and was having a little advertising war with Wilson Combat (the Late or mid '90's) both were using the same frames, which were drop forged and made by Jericho, which I believe was/is an American company.

I wonder if they can use some sort of X-ray technology to check for voids in their raw castings, before expending too much labor in part that is going to fail because of a void.

Tuner, if I recall correctly, you have a decent amount of MIM parts that failed, sitting somewhere around your work bench. Did these parts fail in the places you specified and do you think it is true that MIM can potentially be the best casting method for producing high quality parts?

[venison]

There's STI at http://www.stiguns.com/ where they say most parts are "manufactured out 4140 steel" and for the extractor they say it's spring steel. The prices are nice compared to those of Wilson / Brown. Are they cast?

I didn't know Kimber internals are actually MIM. I think of them as quality guns yet I never owned one. Do their internals fail too soon?

[Greyswindir]

Well, some say they do, and yes, the internal are MIM. The sear, disconnect, hammer, beavertail grip safety, some of the external extractors are MIM and some are not. So MIM is definitely part of a Kimber pistol. That's how they offered such a cheap "custom" pistol when they first started out in the 1911 community. Some feel Kimber was responsible for making the 1911 as popular as it is today. i personally don't buy into that argument/opinion.

[1911Tuner]

if I recall correctly, you have a decent amount of MIM parts that failed,

I had a good many before I tossed'em out recently.

IF...MIM is of high quality and the process is correctly and carefully followed...it's good stuff. IF...

Of the parts that I've seen fail, I've also known of many more that seem to act like that Energizer rabbit. I've got a 1991A1 Colt that came with an MIM sear and disconnect that are still in the gun after something over 160,000 rounds. Interestingly, another identical pistol that's only 84 numbers from that one had a machined sear and an MIM disconnect.

Like investment castings, some parts are well-suited to the MIM process. Others...not so well. Even the parts that are well-suited don't fare well if the material isn't good quality or is poorly matched or fitted. It doesn't seem to hold up under impact very well. An example is a MIM grip safety, broken in two at the safety pin hole. The cause appears to be that the upswept safety was takin' a hit by the hammer too far from the pin...out near the tip...likely because the relief slot wasn't deep enough to allow the hammer sufficient clearance move past half-cock. Instead, the hammer was bearing directly on it when it was slammed back. It broke. Not so much because it was MIM, but because it was undergoing a stress that it wasn't designed to absorb. Had it been made of steel, it would have taken it in stride. The orginal specs for the grip safety material is 1018 or 1020 cold-rolled steel that wasn't even case-hardened. Soft and malleable enough to absorb those kinds of stresses without breaking.

[1911Tuner]

Grey...Here's the grip safety that I mentioned. Courtesy of...somebody on some other forum. Can't recollect who...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/MIMGS.jpg

[Greyswindir]

Sheesh!

Snapped off right at the thumb safety hole! I guess the MIM was too hard, not to mention the beating it must have been taking from the hammer going too far...or did you say the grip safety's slot was out of spec? soft steel would definitely have taken that beating, probably for the life of the gun.

[1911Tuner]

I guess the MIM was too hard, not to mention the beating it must have been taking from the hammer going too far...

It's not really the hardness. MIM doesn't have the same shear yield of a comparable piece of steel...and the hammer moving past full-cock is part of the design. If it has clearance between the back of the spur or rowel and the top of the grip safety... nothing goes wrong. If that clearance isn't present, the slide pins the hammer between the center rail and the safety...wherever the point of contac is...and places the safety under a high shearing stress. Instead of the part flexing or simply deforming a little...dent...it snaps. The fault apparently lies mostly with the lack of clearance for the hammer. Had it been present, the safety may have done fine.

A point not often considered when installing an upswept, ducktail grip safety. That clearance has to be there.

[Greyswindir]

What exactly is the definition of "shear yield" Tuner? I have an idea of what that means, but I'm sure you have a better idea than me.

[1911Tuner]

Shear...Resistance to forces applied in opposing directions. In a purely technical sense, it's like a scissor action. The barrel lugs on the 1911 pistol undergo a shearing stress. The shear yield point isn various steels is tested by prestressing the part to a set depth...locking it into a fixture...and using a calibrated pendulum to strike it to see how far the steel will bend...or break.

Tensile yield defines how much stretch the part will stand before it breaks. The yield is usually determined at the point of maximum stretch before it fails, though some applications grade it at maximum load at the point that it actually breaks.

[Greyswindir]

Okay, I get that,

Kind of like the stresses that lug bolts take on a car. Or any piece of metal that is under force or stresses. Especially when the part acts as a pivot point for another part.

Thank you sir!

[berkbw]

IIRC MIM is not a "casting" process. It is a "pressed" process. I think that the failures deal with cleanliness of the raw powder, and the adhesive mix.

'course, Tuner can/might clarify this "issue" [quotes cuz if I'm wrong, there is no issue, and Tuner is always, at least by me, granted the last and authoritive word.]

b-

[auto45]

C&S sell a "forged" slidestop, Nighthawk also. Which probably means the same manufacturer. :D

[Greyswindir]

Berk,

MIM...Metal injected molding....a mold means the part is cast. MIM uses powdered metal and polymer binders, which are melted or baked...you first get a "green" part, then a brown part, and then finally the finished part. It isn't done in the traditional way, but they are cast, none the less, just in a different way. I read about it in depth a long time ago, so some of what I said is probably a bit off course, but that's the gist of it.

The polymers are removed as the process goes through different stages, leaving pure metal. When the parts hit the "brown" stage they are bigger...the part swells up a bit. I'm sure you could do a quick search and get a more accurate version. I've talked to a few smiths about it and they say if you remove or file away the injection marks...which look like little raised circles...you couldn't tell a MIM part from a bar stock part.

P.S., no pressing is involved that I know of, but I could be wrong.

This is interesting:

4 a: to give a shape to (a substance) by pouring in liquid or plastic form into a mold and letting harden without pressure <cast steel>

So if you are correct, and pressure is used during the process, it doesn't meet the definition of being "cast", at least it would appear so by this definition.

[hutch1510]

i think norinco's are forged slide stops too,,, i have several i keep around