when does it become custom?

[CZJedi]

Here's a question... when does a stock pistol become custom? How many parts do you have to have changed? How much gunsmithing has to be done? According to the BATF, of course, it all comes down to the receiver, but for gun fans, when does "This is a Springfield" become "This is a custom 1911"?

[RickB]

If the gun is built precisely to your specs, it's a custom. Even if it costs $4000, if it is available over the counter, it's not custom, no matter how well it's put together.

[chrisp0410]

This is a question I asked myself some years ago. If I bought a Series 70 Colt and sent it in to Ted Yost for a Trigger Job, sights, beavertail, extended safety and a reliability package would that pistol be a "custom?" Or would it be a customized production pistol?

Conversely, if I ordered a pistol from Ted Yost with all the aforementioned items and he supplied a new Series 70 Colt pistol as the base, would it then be a custom pistol?

It really comes down to semantics in many cases. I agree that if you can get a pistol with all the bells and whistles you want over the counter then it is a production pistol, not a custom. But if you order a pistol a specific way from a manufacturer, in a non-standard configuration, then it would be a custom.

Again, lots of semantics.

Chrisp0410

[CZJedi]

This is a question I asked myself some years ago. If I bought a Series 70 Colt and sent it in to Ted Yost for a Trigger Job, sights, beavertail, extended safety and a reliability package would that pistol be a "custom?" Or would it be a customized production pistol?

That's sort of why I asked the question. I have a DW PM7 that now has more EGW parts in it than DW parts. I also had EGW do a bunch of smithing on it.

[AZ Husker]

I have two 1911's that were worked on by three topshelf pistolsmiths. Are these customs? Everything has been done that would have on a total build by one smith.

[John]

I agree with RickB. If the gunsmith who build the pistol for you, followed your exact specs to the letter, then it is a custom pistol. No, changing a sear and a hammer and doing a trigger job, doesn't qualify, even if that's all you asked him to do. The work has to give the gun some personality, so it differentiates it from the one next to it on the shelf.

[Ping Ping]

My Custom Les Baer Custom was made to my exact specs, with all the parts, additions, omissions and trigger pull wt I specified; all fitted by one guy. Yet, every time I refer to it as "custom" I am immediately flogged with a dead fish.

When I look at John's Custom Nighthawk Custom, I see a custom gun. Everything about it was tailored to his spec's and it's the only one like it. Some people just refuse to accept that a semi-custom, or limited production house is capable of producing a "custom" gun. Funny though, if someone buys the same Nighthawk frame from Caspian and the same barrel from Storm Lake, it's considered "custom." Huh?

Paul Liebenberg makes a package gun, yet no one would dare refer to him as "semi".

[chrisp0410]

My Custom Les Baer Custom was made to my exact specs, with all the parts, additions, omissions and trigger pull wt I specified; all fitted by one guy. Yet, every time I refer it as "custom" I am immediately flogged with a dead fish.

When I look at John's Custom Nighthawk Custom, I see a custom gun. Everything about it was tailored to his spec's and it's the only one like it. Some people just refuse to except that a semi-custom, or limited production house is capable of producing a "custom" gun. Funny though, if someone buys the same Nighthawk frame from Caspian and the same barrel from Storm Lake, it's considered "custom." Huh?

Paul Liebenberg makes a package gun, yet no one would dare refer to him as "semi".

I do love this thread. I agree with you, once again, Ping Ping! I have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Comanche that was Bobtailed and Hardchromed by Virgil Tripp and stocked with Box Elder Burl grips from Ed Strange over at Wicked Grips. So, this makes it a Customized Semi-Custom? I doubt there is another one exactly like it anywhere and it could not have been ordered this way from Les Baer. The next dead fish flogging will come my way.

Another one, I have an S&W 686 "Custom Carry Comp" that is one of 500 made as a special Lew Horton run by Smith's Performance Center. This particular one was sent out directly from S&W to Jarvis at the request of the original owner for an Action Job, truing the barrel/cylinder gap, indexing, crane ball detent, chamber numbering, tritium sights (the front sight is a dovetailed 1911 sight and the rear is a Millet with a specially made Tritium blade, rounded on top. This I guess would also not be a Custom by some folks definition because an existing gun was sent to someone for parts to be interchanged. But I can tell you with authority that it is the only 2 5/8" barrelled & compensated, round butt, slicked up 7 shot .357 Magnum revolver to ever wear the S&W logo. Please note, this is not one of the 7 shot 2 1/2" 686's later made by S&W, this one was the prototype to S&W introducing those. But I guess it isn't custom either.

The debate continues.

Chrisp0410

[harrydog]

I think there is a gray area that lies somewhere between semi-custom and custom, between just a trigger job and a full house modification. Exactly where the line is drawn is sometimes hard to say and it may be different according to different people.
I guess a semi-custom shop, like Baer, can produce a custom gun but since they're so well known as a semi-custom shop, most people will not think of it as a true custom unless you spell it out for them.
But even though a semi-custom shop will offer options to the customer doesn't make them a true custom shop if the options are limited to their off the shelf parts and services. For example, Wilson will allow you to delete rollmarks and front cocking serrations but they won't do any checkering other than 30 LPI and not all options are available on all models. So they definitely do not produce true custom guns.
True custom shops will want to discuss the project with the customer in detail first, offer suggestions if asked, and let the customer make the final decisions as to exactly what they want and don't want. Often times they will send photos or allow the customer to handle the completed gun in the white, to see if there are any last additions or changes they want to make before the gun has the finish applied.

[dogdollar]

A build sheet you have made changes to is "customized".
A build sheet you thought up is "custom".

Remember - a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is seldom a square.

DD

P.S. - Whoever lays wake at night pondering this question seriously needs to get a life. :D

[chrisp0410]

A build sheet you have made changes to is "customized".
A build sheet you thought up is "custom".

Remember - a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is seldom a square.

DD

P.S. - Whoever lays wake at night pondering this question seriously needs to get a life. :D

DD, now you're just gesting at quadrilaterals and parallelograms and if I am thinking in these terms at 11:27 PM, do I need to get a life? Well, I suppose so.

I guess that math and Gin & Tonics require mutually exclusive realms, therefore, I guess I'll just go to bed. nighty night.

Chrisp0410

[John]

For example, Wilson will allow you to delete rollmarks and front cocking serrations but they won't do any checkering other than 30 LPI and not all options are available on all models. So they definitely do not produce true custom guns.

Try saying that to Bill Wilson or Duane Wormington, LoRL!

[Bushrod]

If you are happy/satisfied with the pistol, does it really matter if it's "semi or custom"?

[CZJedi]

P.S. - Whoever lays wake at night pondering this question seriously needs to get a life. :D

I've had a host of health problems over the last year (almost died back in February), and have not been shooting in a long time; this and TV are all I got right now ! :bed:

[handgun921]

CZJedi,
Hey man, you got to get better so that you can shoot again. Take care and get well.

Handgun921

[Tom]

... this and TV are all I got right now !
And you've got survive the Penguins in the next round of the playoffs! :scared:

[harrydog]

If you are happy/satisfied with the pistol, does it really matter if it's "semi or custom"?
Of course not.

[harrydog]

Try saying that to Bill Wilson or Duane Wormington, LoRL!
I'd love to tell it to Bill Wilson, but I doubt he would care. I tried to order a gun with 20 or 25 LPI checkering but they won't do anything but 30 LPI. I also wanted to get the better parts fit (slide to frame and barrel to slide & bushing) of the supergrade without all of the other cosmetic bells and whistles but no, they won't do that either. So, they're not truly custom guns if they only make them with their options rather than the options the customer really wants.

[parrothead2581]

If it is done to the exact specs I ask, I consider it to be a custom.

If Wilson accomodates some requests, but refuses to do others, I would consider it semi custom. If Les Baer will make one of his pistols the exact way you want it, I would consider it custom.

FWIW, when I think of custom pistols, I tend to think of the likes of Terry Tussey and the pistols he made according to what Steven Segal wants.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/info_custom_shop.htm (http://Wilson%27s%20Definition%20of%20Custom)

I think paragraph six, sentence 2, is especially funny, based on what harrydog posted.

[dogdollar]

I've had a host of health problems over the last year (almost died back in February), and have not been shooting in a long time; this and TV are all I got right now ! :bed:

I am sorry to hear that, friend.
What I meant by my comment, of course, is that anyone having a gun nice enough to even warrant their asking that question certainly has something extraordinary indeed; and shouldn't lose sight of that very important consideration.
I hope you understand, and realize I had no intention of insulting you personally or demeaning your post - it is, after all, a valid question for discussion - I'm just not convinced that finding the definitive answer, if there is one, has a lot of value.
One of my very favorite guns is a very mildly modded Colt 1991AI - Millett sights, Videcki trigger, and S&A magwell - but in one slant on this argument it could possibly be the closest thing to a custom I own, among the Baers, Brown, Briley, etc. simply because the options that it DOES have were not available as OEM options from the assembly line.
One way or another, it shoots just as well. :D
Feel better,
DD

[BringerOfStorms]

I've had a host of health problems over the last year (almost died back in February), and have not been shooting in a long time; this and TV are all I got right now ! :bed:

Bet your dry fire technique is flawless though! :)
Get better buddy.
~BoS

[Joni Lynn]

If you are happy/satisfied with the pistol, does it really matter if it's "semi or custom"?

I think what it comes down to is 'if you are happy with it'.
Even if it's just a stock production gun, if you're happy with it then there's no need or reason to go further. Of course here at m1911.org where 1911itis runs amok and enablers are everywhere the chances of that are somewhat minimal.

If I had to watch a lot of tv, I'm sure it would progress from dry fire to dead tv. :)

[dogdollar]

For goodness' sake, yes - look out for all of those enablers. :rolleyes:

DD

[Joni Lynn]

Heh heh heh............. :)

[Ping Ping]

For goodness' sake, yes - look out for all of those enablers. :rolleyes:

DDBoy, if that aint the pot calling the kettle black... ;)

[chrisp0410]

If I had to watch a lot of tv, I'm sure it would progress from dry fire to dead tv. :)

Joni's going Elvis on the TV!

Chrisp0410

[ElrodCod]

IMO, a gun that you send to a 'smith is customized no matter what's done to it or how much it costs. Whatever base gun that's started with is what it is, i.e.; If it started out as a stock Colt ( or Springer or whatever)then you have a customized Colt.
If you buy a stock gun from Fusion, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Rock River, yada, yada, it's a stock gun. On the other hand, if you spec out exactly what you want and they build it for you from the bare frame & slide, it's a true custom gun.

[CZJedi]

I hope you understand, and realize I had no intention of insulting you personally or demeaning your post - it is, after all, a valid question for discussion - I'm just not convinced that finding the definitive answer, if there is one, has a lot of value.

No insult taken... since I can't shoot my guns right now, I just like to spend a bunch of time thinking about how I can improve them (my DW is going to be like a new gun by the time I can get to the range again).

BTW, thanks to all to wished me good health. Things are getting better, I just need to work up my strength and stamina before I can really get going again. My goal is to be able to get out for the start of next Fall's hunting season (missed all of this year's season).

And you've got survive the Penguins in the next round of the playoffs!

Flyers in 6!

[Joni Lynn]

Elvis has left the planet. :)