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cliff731
26th April 2008, 05:46
As questions about N and NM serial number prefixs and "Where is my pistol made?" are frequently asked, I figured a "sticky" on this topic would be warranted. A fellow member, Cliff731, did such an excellent job addressing another member's questions recently that, rather than write my own post, I plagiarized Cliff's post, only editing it slightly to address general questions rather than to a specific individual.

Thanks, Cliff, for being a sleep-deprived chatterbox!

Tom



i've been saving money for a mil-spec for a long time. i've posted threads about my enthusiams. however, i was very disappointed when i saw "Brazil" engraved on the frames of mil-specs at my local gun shop.

This comes straight from Deb/Vicky at Springfield... if > 50% of the work is done on one of their pistols in Brazil, then somewhere on that pistol it will be marked "Brazil". Should > 50% be done in Geneseo, IL, then it does not require a "Brazil" marking.

That is where the "MADE IN BRAZIL" rollmarks come from... placed above the serial number. That is one variety of markings that will show up on Springfield's G.I., Mil-Spec and Loaded pistols.

Another is the "Geneseo IL USA" found just above the serial number. There's essentially two common variants of this... for example, in the Mil-Spec line, if it has a N serial number prefix, you will find "IMBEL BRAZIL" or "FI BRAZIL" laser etched in two places. The locations are the bottom side of the dustcover and underneath the right grip panel on the frame. If you find a NM serial number prefix, those markings are usually always absent and the "GENESEO IL USA" rollmark still appears above the serial number on the frame.

Understand this part- ALL Springfield Armory 1911A1 pistols start their life in the forge presses of IMBEL in Brazil. There the frames, slides and barrels are forged... regardless of what markings are later applied or where the majority of the work is done.


on the Springfield Armory website, "Brazil" does not appear on the image they have of the pistol. i am very upset that a company who claims to be "The First Name In American Firearms" has chosen to out-source the production of an American icon for an increase in profits. i have no doubt that cheap foreign labor has substantally increased their profits. yet, the price of their product has not declined.

See above... all SA 1911A1 pistols start as frame, slide and barrel forgings made by IMBEL in Brazil. It's been like that since day one for Springfield Armory... hence, there really isn't any outsourcing that was done to reduce labor costs. Springfield's higher line of 1911A1 pistols are all finished (> 50%) in Geneseo, IL. That's not changed. Doubt it ever will.

IMBEL is a major arms maker... world class. The Springfield 1911A1 pistols that are marked "MADE IN BRAZIL" are equal in quality to any done in Geneseo. One of the best made and fitted Mil-Spec pistols I've seen lately had the "MADE IN BRAZIL" rollmark. This reflects a very highly skilled and competent workforce... I doubt that IMBEL is using cheap labor (for Brazil).

Why does Springfield do this? It's simple... they simply cannot produce as many 1911A1 pistols in Geneseo, IL, as the market is demanding.


this is another example of taking jobs out of American hands for money. i for one, am ashamed that the so-called American company (the Reese family) has tricked the American consumer into thinking that their product is produced and manufactured in America by Americans. the image of the mil-spec on their website has no engravings that say "Brazil."

Please consider this... Springfield hasn't ever said that their line of 1911A1 pistols was exclusively "made in the U.S.A."... not ever. They've never advertised that or made such a claim. The Springfield and IMBEL relationship has been an upfront fact since SA went into the 1911A1 business.

I'll venture a guess that the workforce Springfield has at their Illinois facility hasn't ever been reduced... likely it's grown. In essence, Brazilian labor hasn't taken any jobs away in Geneseo... it's added to them by virtue of Springfield's increased sales. Even if the pistol is made in Brazil and completely finished there, it still must pass thru the Geneseo facility.

Regarding the photos you commented on, those are "stock" photographs that illustrate a "typical" model of that pistol. These photos are re-used on a continuous basis each year.

While it's reported that all G.I. pistols are likely being finished in Brazil, I believe you'll still see Mil-Spec pistols show up with "Geneseo IL USA" on them. I have one... made in February 2007... a parkerized Mil-Spec with no "IMBEL" or "BRAZIL" on it anywhere (has NM serial number prefix).


i'm not prejudice against Brazil or her people, or her industry. i'm just angry that a so-called American coorporation would out-source production (taking away American jobs) for profit rather than keeping the authentic history of America alive.

Again, I believe a careful examination of all the facts will reveal that there hasn't been any "outsourcing" of any production that was previously done in the U.S.A., other than having IMBEL supply an increasing quantity of finished G.I. and Mil-Spec pistols to meet demand.

About the history part... I'm not quite sure that applies. Springfield Armory USA has no connection at all to the original Springfield Armory owned by the U.S. military. The latter is on the Connecticut River in western Massachusetts and was closed in 1968. The former is in Illinois and began in 1974 when the Reese family obtained the rights to the Springfield name. They're very clear about this fact... and have never claimed to be the "original" Springfield Armory. They do have the name... and rightfully claim to preserve the heritage. It's savvy marketing... which in its self is as American as apple pie.

One last thought... Springfield could produce their 1911A1 pistols entirely in the U.S.A. if desired. This would require that they forge (or contract to a domestic supplier) all frames, slides and barrels. You might feel better about the pistol... but you're sure going to pay more for it... and their production quantity would no doubt decrease too.

My apology for a somewhat long and rambling "explanation"... but my coffee driven insomnia does make me a bit talkative... :D

Cliff

pa_guns
27th April 2008, 08:26
Hi

The only thing I would add to the excellent post above is this:

The work being described for the "> 50%" is the final fit of the pistol.

All of the parts in the pistol are imported in finished form from Brazil. On a 1911 the final fit is not a trivial thing, but the amount of "tweaking" done is quite small. Even on a "US" production line pistol, 90% of the total work on that pistol is done in Brazil.

Bob

cliff731
27th April 2008, 13:28
Bob,

All of us who "hang out" in the Springfield section of this forum owe a huge debt of gratitude to You and also to Tom for the superb work you do and your time contributed. :appld:

That's "non-compensated" time too, just in case anyone is wondering. Therein, we can all get a visual image of how significant your efforts are to making this forum a better place... especially this part of it! http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

I do want to add a bit more regarding those markings... so not to be remiss in omitting some further information. Here goes...

The "IMBEL" laser etched markings apparently come in at least three variations... at least that's what I'm looking at right now.

I have a parkerized Mil-Spec, N serial number, made in April 2002. It's marked "FI BRAZIL" in a single line, bottom of dustcover.

A parkerized G.I. model, WW serial number, made in December 2004, is laser etched "IMBEL BRAZIL", also in a single line, same location- bottom of dustcover.

Another G.I., this one Armory Kote OD, WW serial number, production date is August 2006, is marked by laser etching on the the dustcover underside with two lines... the first is "IMBEL" and immediately below is "MADE IN BRAZIL".

For the curious, all three of these are rollmarked "GENESEO IL USA" above the serial number.

But wait... there is another variant that preceded all these!

It's not my Springfield, but this is a Super Tuned model, sort of like a Mil-Spec on steroids... something beyond a Loaded... checkered front strap and MSH... but without front cocking serrations if I recall correctly. The one I saw and examined was made in January 1997 and would have looked something like this...


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/pentaxuser01/Folder%201/SpringfieldSuperTunedmarkings-1.jpg

Note where the "FI BRAZIL" marking is at! It's on the right side of the frame towards the front... not the bottom dustcover area. Did you also see the "READ MANUAL" on the barrel hood?

I doubt we've yet uncovered all the variations of these Springfield markings!

pa_guns
27th April 2008, 16:57
Hi

You're the one doing all the heavy lifting on this one :D :D :D

I'm sure that if we get into the sub variants of serial number starting letters combined with models combined with different years - we're going to have a lot of variations.

Just for the record:

According to the ATF numbers Springfiled "made" 7,153 pistols in 2006. That's the total number that did not need to have "made in Brazil" markings on them. The number is for both production pistols and Custom Shop product. According to industry publications their total sales in 2006 were over 125,000 pistols of all types.

I believe that 1911's are roughly 1/3 of Springfield's total sales. That would put the number around 40,000 pistols. More or less you can say that including custom shop product 20% of the 1911's are *not* marked "Brazil".

So many numbers, I think my head is turning to mush ... :scared:

Bob

cliff731
27th April 2008, 22:59
...So many numbers, I think my head is turning to mush ... :scared:

Bob

Thanks, Bob... I do appreciate your kind words... and yes, that's a huge number of 1911A1 pistols! Just the Geneseo combined production and custom shop output would be almost 30 a day based on a 5 day week with about two weeks downtime during the calendar year for holidays.

I cannot imagine that their "fitting" techniques or methods have changed drastically in the past decades gone by. A visit to their Geneseo facility to see Springfield 1911A1 pistols assembled and finished would beat a trip to Disney's place on my list!!!

pa_guns
28th April 2008, 06:51
Hi

My *guess* is that roughly 1/3 of the 7,000 pistols made in IL are Custom Shop output. That would make the output of the custom shop about the same as the total production at Wilson and larger than any of the other semi-custom guys.

Bob

kcshooter
28th April 2008, 12:59
It's also worth noting that Imbel was making quality 1911 pistols looong before Springfield contracted them.

pa_guns
28th June 2008, 21:35
Hi

Based on the Imbel product they brought in in the early 1980's - both outfits (Imbel and Springfield) have come a *long* way since then.

Bob

texagun
10th November 2008, 11:21
I hope I haven't missed this, but is there a specific date when the "N" numbered guns ceased being assembled in Brazil, and the "NM" numbered guns started being assembled in Illinois?

pa_guns
10th November 2008, 15:32
Hi

The definition of "assembled in Brazil" is pretty elastic. I suspect that some of the pistols fail inspection in the US and are re-assembled here even today. That makes defining a "cut off" pretty futile.

Bob

cliff731
10th November 2008, 16:47
I agree with Bob... "The definition of "assembled in Brazil" is pretty elastic."

Texagun, I've not ever heard that N prefix guns were discontinued from finishing in Brazil... and NM prefix were started in Geneseo.

Are you asking if the NM prefix has superceded N prefix as normal production?

I have seen it posted that in past years Springfield has used other serial number prefixes than N and NM... and that doesn't count the WW prefix for their G.I. models.

Springfield is very taciturn on this subject, by the way... :) :(

texagun
10th November 2008, 17:15
Are you asking if the NM prefix has superceded N prefix as normal production?



I guess the answer would be "yes." I thought the "N" guns were early guns assembled in Brazil, and the "NM" guns were later guns produced when they moved assembly to Illinois. I was just wondering if there was a date that separated the two.

cliff731
10th November 2008, 18:24
I guess the answer would be "yes." I thought the "N" guns were early guns assembled in Brazil, and the "NM" guns were later guns produced when they moved assembly to Illinois. I was just wondering if there was a date that separated the two.

No... actually, the N and NM prefixes have been running for sometime. There's some of the pre-1990 Springfields in that thread showing a NM prefix... and I have one made in 2007 with a NM prefix.

From what I know and understand, a NM prefix is almost always a Springfield that had > 50% of work done at Geneseo. Of course, that doesn't exclude N prefix pistols from being done likewise in Geneseo. Springfield's customer service folks will tell you they have used several serial number prefixes on their 1911A1 pistols.

Rob96
5th December 2008, 19:09
In the latest issue of Combat Handguns, Rob Garret did an article on the TRP. In the article he started off with the info given to him by Dave Williams. "NM" guns are semi-finished match frames and slides in which the gunsmiths at SA cut the rails in and fit the two together by hand, "NM" guns also recieve SA stainless match barrels. This seems to be a very good explanation as I have seen a picture of a TRP that had a serial that was exactly on digit off from my Mil-Spec.

Clayton
20th January 2009, 16:55
Thanks for this info...I was wondering what the NM on my new Trophy Match actually meant....guy in the store mentioned something about made in America but wasn't specific. I guess this means I should be happy? Love the gun.

cliff731
2nd March 2009, 19:38
...I guess this means I should be happy? Love the gun.

Absolutely, Clayton... such is cause to rejoice... well... maybe that's a stretch... but it is something to be happy about. The few Trophy Match Springfields as I've seen were all marked "NM"... :)

77x58mm
5th March 2009, 19:39
I have a sa stainless 1911-a1 has 2006 imbel itajuba under the right grip panel doesnt have the crossed canons on the slide us on the grips the imbel is not laser on it looks like its pinged with a punch? any thoughts on that ser is ww75xxx.

cliff731
6th March 2009, 02:03
I have a sa stainless 1911-a1 has 2006 imbel itajuba under the right grip panel doesnt have the crossed canons on the slide us on the grips the imbel is not laser on it looks like its pinged with a punch? any thoughts on that ser is ww75xxx.

The "WW" serial number prefix identifies your Springfield as a G.I. pistol.

All those characteristics you describe would be found on any stainless SA G.I. pistol.

77x58mm
6th March 2009, 07:38
thanks cliff!

cliff731
11th March 2009, 21:08
thanks cliff!

You're welcome... :)

Catbacker88
3rd May 2009, 11:28
My Loaded shows the "N" prefix serial number under Imbel, no Imbel under the dust cover and no Imbel on the right side of the grip frame. How about that?

Tom
3rd May 2009, 14:57
Only Springfield's inconsistency is consistent. :D

Dorkfish
5th May 2009, 20:28
Well, I see that the N and NM were covered, but does anyone have info on the WW serial prefix?

cliff731
6th May 2009, 00:14
Well, I see that the N and NM were covered, but does anyone have info on the WW serial prefix?

Dorkfish,

Look about 5 posts previous (#22) and you'll find your answer... ;)

Cliff

Bacon
6th May 2009, 14:47
I bought a new Mil-Spec back in the 80's that had a NM serial number. IIRC it also had Brazil stamped on it. Does that sound right?

cliff731
8th May 2009, 03:53
I bought a new Mil-Spec back in the 80's that had a NM serial number. IIRC it also had Brazil stamped on it. Does that sound right?

It's inconsistent with what I have observed with Springfield's NM marked 1911's... however, that is a much earlier Mil-Spec and what Tom opined above certainly applies-


Only Springfield's inconsistency is consistent. :D

wjkuleck
8th May 2009, 05:21
In 2007, Springfield, Inc. produced 4032 9mm and 9655 .45 pistols, for a total of 13,687. Source:


ANNUAL FIREARMS MANUFACTURING AND EXPORT REPORT (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/afmer/afmer2007.pdf)

This is domestic production only, of course, and does not include those pistols imported from Brazil and Croatia. It does give an idea of how many were sufficiently "processed" here to require reporting as "manufactured."

In contrast to 2007 (the most recent year available from the ATF), in 2006 Springfield, Inc. produced a total of 7153 of both calibers.

Regards,

Walt
PS During 2007 Colt manufactured 17,633 .38 Super and .45 ACP pistols.

Bugman53
12th August 2009, 01:11
Here is my 1990 "Defender model" with a NM serial number.
No brizal marking at all anywhere on the gun.

Notice the placement of the springfield seal. Its behind the ejection port intsead of infront of it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/BUGMAN53/Picture031.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/BUGMAN53/Picture041.jpg

CDogg
12th August 2009, 04:00
Here is my 1990 "Defender model" with a NM serial number.
No brizal marking at all anywhere on the gun.

Notice the placement of the springfield seal. Its behind the ejection port intsead of infront of it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/BUGMAN53/Picture031.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/BUGMAN53/Picture041.jpg
the NM prefix will not have Brazil marked on it since it was assembled and finished here in the US. It also doesnt mean that the serial number is an NM and the logo will be placed at the rear part of the slide. I got an NM prefix springer that the logo is at the front part of the slide. The earlier model guns they have does have the logo at the back

Spoiler
14th August 2009, 18:39
My Compact has a NMC and the Logo is at the back of the slide.......

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5089/dsc00597a.jpg

tstuart6
26th November 2009, 08:46
Brazil!! Before I got my Loaded I was going to get the Mil Spec in SS I called the 800 number for Springfield and spoke to Dawn who told me the all Springfields were made in America by Americans,I get home with my new Loaded and take it out for cleaning and there on the frame is stamped "BRAZIL" if thats the kind of gun I wanted I would have got a Taurus. This gun is for my collection only and I am mad that Springfield and the dealers use the Bait and Switch to sell their guns,I had no reason to check the gun at the dealer,the case was open and the Left side of the gun was showing "1911A1 45 cal." no Brazil,and there is no disclaimer in their Book,webb site or owners manual to say their Frames,Slides and other parts are made in Brazil.Called Springfield again and was told the gun has a lifetime warranty and because 51% OF THE GUN WAS MADE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY then the country of manufacturing was rolled on the frame.
DON'T TAKE THIS CALL SPRINGFIELD AND TELL THEM!!!!!

silversport
26th November 2009, 09:09
Springfield Armory 1911A1s have always been made by Imbel in Brasil (Brazil to the US)...some are assembled there and some here (the one's without the Brasil or Imbel stamp like my NM serial'd Mil Spec)...
Bill

tstuart6
26th November 2009, 09:15
Then Springfield needs to won up to that and put in the owners manual and place a disclaimer on the home page so everyone knows the truth.Even their own Customer Service Reps.who told me the GUN WAS MADE IN AMERICA.

texagun
26th November 2009, 09:23
Then Springfield needs to won up to that and put in the owners manual and place a disclaimer on the home page so everyone knows the truth.Even their own Customer Service Reps.who told me the GUN WAS MADE IN AMERICA.

It's really nothing to get excited about. The guns made in Brazil, regardless of where they are assembled, are excellent guns. I have 2 that I have had for many years and they have both been trouble-free.

ElrodCod
26th November 2009, 09:31
In the latest issue of Combat Handguns, Rob Garret did an article on the TRP. In the article he started off with the info given to him by Dave Williams. "NM" guns are semi-finished match frames and slides in which the gunsmiths at SA cut the rails in and fit the two together by hand, "NM" guns also recieve SA stainless match barrels. This seems to be a very good explanation as I have seen a picture of a TRP that had a serial that was exactly on digit off from my Mil-Spec.

It's not likely that they "cut the rails in" , it would cost to much. The NM frames probably come with slightly oversize rails & get a lap fit to the slide.

tstuart6
26th November 2009, 09:32
The First Name in AMERICAN Firearms.
Thats the Logo not the First Name in Brizilian Firearms.
The Camp Perry is Made in America and the ones without the roll mark are made in America by U.S. Workers.

OD*
26th November 2009, 09:34
The First Name in AMERICAN Firearms.
Thats the Logo not the First Name in Brizilian Firearms.
The Camp Perry is Made in America and the ones without the roll mark are made in America by U.S. Workers.They are assembled here, they are forged by IMBEL.

Jolly Rogers
26th November 2009, 09:44
Brazil!! Before I got my Loaded I was going to get the Mil Spec in SS I called the 800 number for Springfield and spoke to Dawn who told me the all Springfields were made in America by Americans,I get home with my new Loaded and take it out for cleaning and there on the frame is stamped "BRAZIL" if thats the kind of gun I wanted I would have got a Taurus. This gun is for my collection only and I am mad that Springfield and the dealers use the Bait and Switch to sell their guns,I had no reason to check the gun at the dealer,the case was open and the Left side of the gun was showing "1911A1 45 cal." no Brazil,and there is no disclaimer in their Book,webb site or owners manual to say their Frames,Slides and other parts are made in Brazil.Called Springfield again and was told the gun has a lifetime warranty and because 51% OF THE GUN WAS MADE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY then the country of manufacturing was rolled on the frame.
DON'T TAKE THIS CALL SPRINGFIELD AND TELL THEM!!!!!

5 minutes searching info on the gun here would have prevented your discomfort.
Joe

Bacon
26th November 2009, 09:55
The question is - Are you willing to pay extra for the "Made In USA" rollmark? If so, buy a Colt.

I'm perfectly happy with my GI Champion. It came built nice and tight and gobbled all the ammo I fed it. Sure, it came with a short trigger, which I hate, and a lanyard, which only got in the way. So I changed them out and kept on shooting.

If you are really that unhappy, sell it.

Frank
26th November 2009, 10:16
Brazil!! ...the dealers use the Bait and Switch to sell their guns,...It's pretty common knowledge that Springfield uses 1911 frames and slides made by Imbel and that many Springfield models are made by Imbel. They are fine, well made guns; and Springfield stands behind the product.

DVC

tstuart6
27th November 2009, 15:17
Well I do have a COLT gold cup,1991a1 Colt plus other 1911's, that being said,what bothers me is the fact that I called the Customer Service line and question them on the two guns(Mil Spes and Loaded SS) and just where they were made and was told they were made in the USA by American workers.The reason I question them was I know the XD and the XD(m) are made outside the Country and it's molded on Grip of the gun is "MADE IN CROATIA"
Being retired from the military I wanted a 45 to have ingraved with my unit and year of service and I wanted it made in America.Based on what I was told by the CS line and looking at the gun in the case{Packaged in a way 1911 45 cal} you see the left side of the gun.I made the purchase.
I will send my Remington Rand and have it engraved I just hate to stop using it.

res1b3uq
10th December 2009, 00:17
They are made in America--just not North America

Old Hick
14th December 2009, 10:24
They are made in America--just not North America


+100 :)

No matter where they are made, like everyone else has said, they are an Awesome pistol.

Stay Safe.

otilram
7th January 2010, 17:27
Is it possible to have same number but different prefix?

NM 111111
N 111111

wjkuleck
7th January 2010, 18:24
Is it possible to have same number but different prefix?

NM 111111
N 111111
Of course. Your two examples are two different serial numbers. The "prefix" isn't a prefix, it's part of the number.

Regards,

Walt

chuckconnors
12th January 2010, 21:43
I have a sa stainless 1911-a1 has 2006 imbel itajuba under the right grip panel doesnt have the crossed canons on the slide us on the grips the imbel is not laser on it looks like its pinged with a punch? any thoughts on that ser is ww75xxx.

First post--- The characters are produced by a pneumatic solenoid driven device known as a pin stamp. Its programmable and works on both X and Y axis', similar to a pantograph. I've seen many of the Imbel stamps produced in this manner. Its a simple, common practice in today's industry.
I have a "smith tuned" mil-spec with an NM prefix made in '01 right about the beginning of the ILS (discarded) and the slide to frame fit is great. Its been measured at a pretty consistent .005". Its got Novak night sights, tuned trigger, and McCormick power mags. And, it'll rock. I'll have to do the photo bucket thing to show a pic...

dondone
26th January 2010, 03:16
OK. About 10 years ago or so, rumors were flying that Springfield had stopped using Brazilian frames and were using frames made in the Philippines, then went back to the Brazilians.

Any truth to it?

OD*
26th January 2010, 09:52
OK. About 10 years ago or so, rumors were flying that Springfield had stopped using Brazilian frames and were using frames made in the Philippines, then went back to the Brazilians.

Any truth to it?Not that I'm aware of, this is the first I've heard this rumor.

dondone
26th January 2010, 10:30
It was something I heard around 1999-2000 from a distributor, and I can't remember which one, but it was one of the more well known ones.

The general gist of it was that Springfield was selling its lower priced guns with frames that were made in the Philippines, allegedly by some company that was making frames for other brands of 1911s as well.

I guess Springfield would be the one to contact to confirm or deny.

OD*
26th January 2010, 10:34
I wouldn't believe it until I could see a Springfield frame rollmarked made in Philippines.

dondone
26th January 2010, 10:38
Like I said, Springfield would have to be the one to confirm or deny. Someone once said that you should believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see. LOL

OD*
26th January 2010, 10:42
Even if you did ask Springfield, I doubt they'd ever admit to it. ;)

dondone
26th January 2010, 10:46
You are soooooo right. LOL There was a bit of an uproar about it at the time, and I was led to understand that they didn't use them for too long (if at all), but, in order for them to NOT have been roll stamped "Made in The Philippines" I would imagine that the 51% rule would apply, just like the Brazilian frames that aren't marked as "Made in Brazil." I guess we'll never know for sure.

Frank
26th January 2010, 10:58
It was something I heard around 1999-2000 from a distributor, and I can't remember which one, but it was one of the more well known ones.

The general gist of it was that Springfield was selling its lower priced guns with frames that were made in the Philippines, allegedly by some company that was making frames for other brands of 1911s as well.

I guess Springfield would be the one to contact to confirm or deny.[1] This was 10 years ago. Even finding someone at Springfield who could give you a reliable answer at this late date could be a good trick.

[2] Sometimes even distributors don't have the best information about what's going on. And it would be nice if you could remember which distributor it was.

DVC

dondone
28th January 2010, 08:10
[1] This was 10 years ago. Even finding someone at Springfield who could give you a reliable answer at this late date could be a good trick.

Amen to that.


[2] Sometimes even distributors don't have the best information about what's going on. And it would be nice if you could remember which distributor it was.

I want to say it was someone at Davidson's in Prescott, but I wouldn't swear to that in a court of law. It was something I "heard" but, as I have never been that big a fan of Springfield guns, I just took it in stride and filed it away in my "relatively unimportant data" file. Sorry I can't come up with something more definitive.

At any rate, I guess it will just have to go into the "unsubstantiated rumor" drawer.

drewhenderson13
15th March 2010, 08:10
They are made in America--just not North America

I love loopholes! :eb:

CDogg
25th March 2010, 21:39
I wouldn't believe it until I could see a Springfield frame rollmarked made in Philippines.
I got an NM prefix on mine but if I do find out this particular frame was made in my country (philippines) I would sell it fast and get a colt or a kimber :p

liketoshoot
18th June 2010, 11:56
Hi all, first post and hope you don't get mad but, I'm looking for the date my Springer was built, it does have a NM prefix and I know it was made here in the USA because it does not have Brazil stamped on it but that is not my question anyway, my question is WHEN it was built not where, so here is the rest of the ser# NM102XXX there is a "S" stamped on the trigger guard if that means anything.
Thanks for your help.

liketoshoot
18th June 2010, 12:51
OK so I sent Springfield an email and after waiting for less time that it takes to make a cup of coffee they emailed back and told me my guns was built on 06/01/1991.
Nice fast and easy, thanks Springfield!

mcmikel61
3rd September 2010, 17:27
A question for clarification: If a serial number begins with an "NM" prefix, as does my Loaded, then that means more than 50 percent of the work on the gun was done in the USA?
Sorry to appear so dense. But this is fascinating stuff.

lksstbls
3rd September 2010, 18:09
A question for clarification: If a serial number begins with an "NM" prefix, as does my Loaded, then that means more than 50 percent of the work on the gun was done in the USA?
Sorry to appear so dense. But this is fascinating stuff.


That would seem to be a reasonable conclusion, although in a fit of boredom, I googled "Made in the USA" or some such thing, and stumbled into a long list of gvmt postings--Dept of Commerce, etc. While they generally implied that the majority of the value added had to be U.S., I couldn't find anything that nailed down the precise percentage. The wording was probably there somewhere, and I just didn't see it.

mcmikel61
4th September 2010, 13:36
Must say I was surprised to learn all Springfield 1911s begin life in Brazil.

KingJames
8th September 2010, 14:10
Hi all,
Been a member for a while and would say that this is my run-to for info.
I've read through some pages but haven't seen an answer to my questions:
1. Does the NM prefix stand for 'National Match?'
2. Is 1911a1 with a low serial number (NM44xxx) worth keeping?

lksstbls
8th September 2010, 14:59
Hi all,
Been a member for a while and would say that this is my run-to for info.
I've read through some pages but haven't seen an answer to my questions:
1. Does the NM prefix stand for 'National Match?'
2. Is 1911a1 with a low serial number (NM44xxx) worth keeping?

Answers:

(1) No. Don't know what NM standands for in Springfield-speak, but its not
"National Match".

(2) Maybe. NM prefix serial number numbers are, right or wrong, more
sought after than the same model with an "N" prefix serial number and therefore might command more value.

The rumor that abounds is that the NM variants because they have more U.S. content, are higher quality. Doubt it, but can't say for sure and neither
can anyone else, I suspect.

BRWinMD
9th September 2010, 12:03
I emailed Springfield an NM serial number of a 9mm that was for sale at a local dealer, in less than a day the wrote back and told me it was made in 1988 and because it was assembled and tuned in Genesco Ill. the NM was added to the serial number.

KingJames
9th September 2010, 14:37
Thanks Iksstbls & BRWinMD.

I sent SA an email about three days ago inquiring about the mfg date (& other info) about a potential buy, but I haven't got a reply from them. Does the forum have a specific contact person inside SA and if so can you give me his/her email address?

lksstbls
9th September 2010, 15:37
Thanks Iksstbls & BRWinMD.

I sent SA an email about three days ago inquiring about the mfg date (& other info) about a potential buy, but I haven't got a reply from them. Does the forum have a specific contact person inside SA and if so can you give me his/her email address?


I believe that historically, SA has been slow to respond to e-mails. They do, however, answer their phone although there might be a holding period. Suggest you go direct, and give them a call. There are some names thrown about, but they're Custom Shop folks and wouldn't be able to help, I suspect.

BRWinMD
9th September 2010, 18:41
Thanks Iksstbls & BRWinMD.

I sent SA an email about three days ago inquiring about the mfg date (& other info) about a potential buy, but I haven't got a reply from them. Does the forum have a specific contact person inside SA and if so can you give me his/her email address?

Try Terry that's who I've dealt with with very fast results, his (?) email address is:

terryb@springfield-armory.com

mcmikel61
9th September 2010, 23:52
Dear all,

Springfield informs my 1911 began life in Jan. 2005, just a bit before it became mine. Beyond that, they know not. I must say two things: my pistol is beautiful. It has few gewgaws on it. The stuff it has is all functional. There are things not right with it, and Springfield has asked me to call and discuss the problems.

I'm loathe to send the weapon to them as it is my only firearm and is here for self-defense. Don't know if I can do a week or more without my gun.

Nonetheless, I am SO impressed with Springfield's customer service. I am confident that if I send them the gun it will come back promptly and be properly dealt with. I've little experience with other manufacturers. Should I expect this same level of service from, say, Kimber, Nowlin, Wilson, Les Baer, S&W or, shudder, Colt?

The second thing has to do with the fit & finish of the gun. As I say, I am no expert. But I have read descriptions by experts of what to expect in a properly built gun. I can find no direction in which I can induce the slide or barrel to rock. The sucker requires a firm, strong grasp to rack the slide. But the slide goes back and forth in an absolutely straight fashion.

I could say much more, but let me finish with this: I have named this gun. To me, that is something not done lightly. Its name is November Mike.
The gun is mine for only a few more years. Once I check out it becomes my warrior son's weapon. He's an E-4 (promotable) in a Guard artillery unit that is scheduled to deploy in a year or so. Both of my sons consider the pistol one of the coolest things they have ever handled.

What can I say? 1911s rock. It is a privilege to own one. I lust for more.

Best wishes and God blesses to all.

Mike McN

BRWinMD
10th September 2010, 05:58
mcmikel61, PM sent

KingJames
10th September 2010, 13:54
Try Terry that's who I've dealt with with very fast results, his (?) email address is:

terryb@springfield-armory.com

BRWinMD,
Thanks - I sent Terry an email this morning. A few minutes later I received an out of office response so I went ahead and called S/A's 800 number. Talked to Vicky (very helpful lady). Info she found regarding my inquiry (#NM44xxx) is that it was manufactured in Jan 1988. When I asked her if it were a GI or Mil-spec, she replied they didn't give those designations back then. Now I'm on my next quest as to find out what Model and Series 1911-A1 it is.

lksstbls
10th September 2010, 15:11
BRWinMD,
Thanks - I sent Terry an email this morning. A few minutes later I received an out of office response so I went ahead and called S/A's 800 number. Talked to Vicky (very helpful lady). Info she found regarding my inquiry (#NM44xxx) is that it was manufactured in Jan 1988. When I asked her if it were a GI or Mil-spec, she replied they didn't give those designations back then. Now I'm on my next quest as to find out what Model and Series 1911-A1 it is.


According to my single reference, the 1911-A1 Springfield pistol of the period
(1985 to 1990) was simply that: the Model 1911-A1. It appears that it was a hybrid of the current G.I. and Mil-Spec models, with taller sights but small ejection port. It also had the Commander-style bobbed hammer (round with a hole in it). The 1990 replacement model was called the '90s Edition Model 1911-A1 and had a traditional spur hammer. The G.I. and Mil-Spec distinct models didn't come along for some time.

6bob1
30th October 2010, 16:41
I recently purchased a SA SS 1911 with a NM 158xxx serial number and I have tried to identify the model, I guess it was manufactured earlier as it does not have a loaded indicator nor is the safety ambidextrous, also the grips have nothing between the points. It does have the groves on the slide and is a very nice looking gun, I am looking forward to retuning home with my wife who is recovering from cancer, and finally getting to take this baby to the range and try it out. I will call SA this coming week and if I find out anything I will post it.

thump_rrr
30th December 2010, 20:10
I purchased a Stainless Loaded built in Jan 2004 according to the date stamped under the grip.
It has an N serial number but no Made in Brazil markings.
What gives?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Thump_rrr/Grips1.jpg

Spyros
31st December 2010, 03:25
I think that some older pistols may have a 'Brazil-Imbel' marking either underneath the dustcover or inside it - I don't remember.

sprikitik2011
28th March 2011, 05:59
I am about to buy a used Springfield 1911 A1 .45 that is chrome finished and with serial number NM 01736 with the GENESEO IL USA on top of the numbers. One thing I noticed though is that the Springfield logo is on the rear portion of the slide near the serrations and not near front. Is this normal and original?

Spyros
28th March 2011, 06:22
Does the slide have front serrations?

OD*
28th March 2011, 08:30
I am about to buy a used Springfield 1911 A1 .45 that is chrome finished and with serial number NM 01736 with the GENESEO IL USA on top of the numbers. One thing I noticed though is that the Springfield logo is on the rear portion of the slide near the serrations and not near front. Is this normal and original?Yes, it's normal, it's just an earlier version, the crossed cannons use to be near the rear of the slide, Springer just moved them forward. Unless your pistol has the custom shop logo, then the crossed cannons are moved back to the rear so the custom shop logo can be placed on the slide.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/OD1911A1/5fed488a.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae304/OD1911A1/HarrisonTrigger6.jpg