View Full Version : Remote diagnostics (if I can do it, I am sure you can too)
OK folks, this may be stupid, but I've received several questions all those years, from people who thought I was the master 1911 gunsmith. I am sure most of them were very sad to learn that I am not even a starting student of this fine art, but I've managed to solve several problems.
In any case, for those of you who are indeed masters at this, here are some pictures of the barrel of my .45 ACP 1911. The question is:
Do these look normal, or should I get my local smith to do any work?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0544.jpg
If I remember correctly, my gunsmith had to reweld the legs of this barrel, when he fitted in the pistol (don't ask why). These marks at the rear of the legs, look as if they are remnants of the tig welding, but I am not sure. What do you think?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0545.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0547.jpg
Also, why are the corners of the legs (the inside corners) so rough? Should I polish them?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0548.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0549.jpg
What about the sides of the barrel's legs? They show some scratches. I do not think they are the result of the pistol's operation, probably they were left at installation. Shall I polish them?
Below are three pictures of the frame. What do you think? Is it OK? What worries me a bit, is the small deformation in the last picture. Your ideas?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0555.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0556.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0557.jpg
Finally, a couple of pictures at the hood of the barrel, the lockup area. What's your comments?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0562.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0563.jpg
OK, here is your chance to diagnoze problems at El Commandante's pistola. Fire away!
LoL
stumbler
8th July 2004, 14:41
How is the ejection of empties? Was the barrel welded on at any time? Scratches on the side of the lugs look like machine marks and should not be a problem. How is the barrel locking lugs on top? How does the locking area of the slide look?
Ejection is fine. If memory serves me right, yes, the lower legs were welded. Upper locking lugs, I'll have to check and come back.
Hi John,
The scratches on the sides of the lower lug are machining marks, and nothing to worry about. The roughness on the rear tips of the leg feet look like welding and as long as it doesn't interfere with the barrel linkdown, shouldn't hurt anything...The work is a bit crude though...You can dress the sides of the
lug lightly with a fine mill file if you want, but as long as the barrel rises and falls smoothly, there's really no reason.
The area on trhe inside of the lower lug looks a little rough. Does the link
swing freely. or is there a tight spot? Dress the insides lightly with a smooth
file if it binds.
The two darkened areas on the backside of the lug...Are they just discolored or are they deformations in the steel? The impact surface in the frame seems to match those two areas, and could be indication of the barrel lug striking the
impact surface too early...Either the impact surface is too far forward or the lug is too far rearward. How do your locking lugs look? Sharp and square
on the front or rolled and flanged? Any burrs or sharp edges on the tops of the lugs that you can feel with a thumbnail?
Hard to tell, but it looks like there's a little peening at the front of the frame rails. Indicates a little tolerance issue with the slide and frame. The slide might be touching the rails at the front just as it stops on the recoil spring guide rod head. Dress the rails lightly, and follow the shape as closely as you can. Go slow...
Haven't seen the last 3 pictures yet due to slow download. I'll try again in a while.
What think wichaka? Maybe you can see something that I don't on these...
Okay John..I got the last three pictures. The "Slight Deformation" on the top
of the frame's impact surface could be a problem. The scratches on the hood
might be another clue. Unless I miss my guess, your locking lugs are rolled
at the front, and there may be similar signs of that on the slide's lugs.
If I'm right, the barrel is getting stopped by the frame while it's still barely locked to the slide via the locking lugs. The scratches on the hood appear
to be coming from the underside of the slide as it passes over the barrel, and
the barrel isn't linked down far enough to provide clearance.
Put the slide into battery briskly. Remove the recoil spring plug to make it easy to handle. Pull the slide rearward about a quarter inch...or about
7 millimeters...At that point, the barrel should be fully down with .015 inch
clearance between the top of the barrel and the underside of the slide.
Not sure what that is in millimeters, but it's about the thickness of four sheets of typing paper. The barrel must fall...Pushing it to get the clearance is a false reading.
Standin' by...
Tuner
wichaka
8th July 2004, 16:26
Okay......hopefully I'm viewing the pics right. But there may be something I'm missing due to the angles of the shots.......
How old is the gun? I've not seen a barrel that shiny in awhile.
Pic-1 & 2; Indents on the back side of the lugs? or bad pic? If they're indents, that's what we call in the Law Enforcement biz " a clue ".
Pic-3 Again either a bad pic, or the lugs are uneven where the slide stop pin rides.
Pic-4 Like Tuner said, the sides are not a concern as long as the barrel freely moves. Most factory barrels I see have some machining marks on them.
Pic-6, Ya I see the same thing. Need to dress some areas there, especially on the left side (right side on the pic)
Pic-7 ok
Pic-8, 9 & 10; Ugh! I'm going to take a stab at this Tuner, but a link problem coupled with the barrel lugs. The hood is not linking down far enough when unlocked especially in pic-10. Unless the pic is mis-leading, the barrel should be down at that point, but it appears that something is holding it up?
Me thinks, that the barrel lugs and/or a link has caused the problem. Yes, I'd like a view of the barrel and slide lugs John. If they show what Tuners talking about, then there's your culprit.
I don't have my 1911 manuals handy, but doing some quick measurements will solve the crime.
That's my first take on it. I'll look the pics over a few more times. Its one of those things where I may see new things everytime I look.
Okay......hopefully I'm viewing the pics right. But there may be something I'm missing due to the angles of the shots.......
How old is the gun? I've not seen a barrel that shiny in awhile. About ten years old, but the barrel is not that old, much newer.
Pic-1 & 2; Indents on the back side of the lugs? or bad pic? If they're indents, that's what we call in the Law Enforcement biz " a clue ". These are most probably spots left from the welding.
Pic-3 Again either a bad pic, or the lugs are uneven where the slide stop pin rides. You mean that the rubbing is not the same on the left and the right curves of the lugs?
Pic-4 Like Tuner said, the sides are not a concern as long as the barrel freely moves. Most factory barrels I see have some machining marks on them. Barrel moves freely, as does the link inside the lugs of the barrel.
Pic-6, Ya I see the same thing. Need to dress some areas there, especially on the left side (right side on the pic) OK, I'll do that.
Pic-7 ok
Pic-8, 9 & 10; Ugh! I'm going to take a stab at this Tuner, but a link problem coupled with the barrel lugs. The hood is not linking down far enough when unlocked especially in pic-10. Unless the pic is mis-leading, the barrel should be down at that point, but it appears that something is holding it up?
Me thinks, that the barrel lugs and/or a link has caused the problem. Yes, I'd like a view of the barrel and slide lugs John. If they show what Tuners talking about, then there's your culprit. OK, I checked the upper lugs and the slide lugs. Here are a couple of pictures:
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0566.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0567.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0568.jpg
Both the barrel lugs and the slide lug cuts seem totally unhurt. I mean they are perfectly square although from the picture above may show a bit deformed, they are not, they are perfectly square, with slight discolloration on the rear edges of the slide cuts, but no deformation, whatsoever. Am I correct in assuming that the barrel unlocks OK from the slide? Maybe it needs to fall down a bit more??
I don't have my 1911 manuals handy, but doing some quick measurements will solve the crime.
That's my first take on it. I'll look the pics over a few more times. Its one of those things where I may see new things everytime I look. The two darkened areas on the backside of the lug...Are they just discolored or are they deformations in the steel? The impact surface in the frame seems to match those two areas, and could be indication of the barrel lug striking the
impact surface too early...Either the impact surface is too far forward or the lug is too far rearward. How do your locking lugs look? Sharp and square
on the front or rolled and flanged? Any burrs or sharp edges on the tops of the lugs that you can feel with a thumbnail? Those areas are hard to describe. I think they are remnants of the welding, but I can't be sure, I do not remember 100%. They do not look like impact marks. As for the locking lugs, they are perfectly square with slight discolloration towards the rear, as shown above.
I'll have to check the clearance of the barrel when it is linked down, but that will have to wait until tomorrow.
Keep it coming guys.
A couple more pictures, just to make this thread too difficult to download. They show the rear of the barrel as it locks at the breechface.
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0572.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0574.jpg
Rgds
1911Tuner
8th July 2004, 17:45
Okay John...From the looks of your lugs, the timing seems to be okay. It
might be the lighting, but the #1 lug...the one in front of the very first slot...
looks like there's slight flanging. Scrape it with your thumbnail toward the front of the barrel to see if you can feel a snag.
The horizontal scratches on the tops of the lugs indicate that you have barely enough clearance between slide and barrel as the slide recoils.
Do a quick check on the link...Wichaka may have nailed it square on the
hittin' spot. Slide off...barrel in the frame...Slidestop pin through the
frame and link with the arm hanging down vertically... Push the barrel down and back and hold it there with medium pressure and check to see if the slidestop swings freely. If holding the barrel in the linked down position
puts the link in a bind, the link is holding the barrel up off the bed, and will
reduce the clearance between the slide and barrel.
If the barrel doesn't ride the link, and the front of the lug has the pin in a bind,
you may need to relieve it AT THAT POINT. Use paper or emery cloth and go slow. Cut and check...Cut and check...
If it's the link, elongating the TOP of the hole a bit will let the barrel fall into the bed. Go slow...No more than necessary to free the slidestop pin. You can do it with a round needle file, but be careful to keep the hole square with the sides. Deburr the sides of the link with a knife blade when it's done and finish smoothing it up with a piece of sandpaper or emery cloth wrapped around the round file.
Standin' by...
Tuner
wichaka
8th July 2004, 18:43
My My Holmes, you're rememdy is most fine 'ol chap!
The chamber lug is a bit suspect, like you said Tuner right on the forward edge. So are the marks on the slide lugs, but if they're only discoloration.........then no prob. there.
I dunno, but the barrel lugs just don't look 100% straight to me, again there's a lot of glare coming off the barrel so that may be it. But pic-4 shows the left lug a bit deeper than the right.
Whats that mark just forward of the barrel lugs?
Dress down any peening that's been done on the frame where the barrel has been hitting, see pic #8 on your first post.
Also the slide stop I just sent you, is it going on this gun? If so you're going to need to probably relieve a bit more off the lugs if it's already in a bind as the pin is @ .200 instead of the stock .196 Not alot of difference, but enough to cause more of a problem if not addressed. Check fit before you do it though.
wichaka
8th July 2004, 18:45
Actually John, after looking at all this..........I'm inclined to send you a barrel and have you lay that one to rest.
stumbler
8th July 2004, 19:28
Darn, you guys took the fun out of this.
Wichaka,
The funny thing is that this is one of the most accurate barrels I've tried. And since sending me a barrel will not do much good without fitting it to my pistol, why don't you pack yourself in a box and send it along as well??? LoL
OK, I just woke up, so I'll have to read four or five times your suggestions here, to figure out what you want me to check and measure. Give me some time until the coffee gets into my veins (I think I should start injecting it directly in the morning, instead of waiting for it to pass in my blood stream from the stomach) and I'll get back.
Rgds
Okay John...From the looks of your lugs, the timing seems to be okay. It
might be the lighting, but the #1 lug...the one in front of the very first slot...
looks like there's slight flanging. Scrape it with your thumbnail toward the front of the barrel to see if you can feel a snag. No, I can't feel any snag on any of the upper lugs. The only thing I noticed, upon very close examination, is that there is a small spot right at the front edge of the chamber (before the first groove), which is a bit shiny. No deformation, just a bit more shiny.
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/Pict0575.jpg
The horizontal scratches on the tops of the lugs indicate that you have barely enough clearance between slide and barrel as the slide recoils.
Do a quick check on the link...Wichaka may have nailed it square on the
hittin' spot. Slide off...barrel in the frame...Slidestop pin through the
frame and link with the arm hanging down vertically... Push the barrel down and back and hold it there with medium pressure and check to see if the slidestop swings freely. If holding the barrel in the linked down position
puts the link in a bind, the link is holding the barrel up off the bed, and will
reduce the clearance between the slide and barrel.
I did this test. With the barrel firmly sitted in the resting bed, the slide stop rotates freely. Since I know that the barrel does not come down parallel to the frame, I even try the test with the slide on the pistol, the barrel in the slide and the slide held back a little (enough to unlock the barrel). The slide stop swings freely. The only time it starts binding, is if I raise the front of the barrel a lot, but I guess that's expected.
If the barrel doesn't ride the link, and the front of the lug has the pin in a bind,
you may need to relieve it AT THAT POINT. Use paper or emery cloth and go slow. Cut and check...Cut and check... Please elaborate on that. I am not sure I get it.
Whats that mark just forward of the barrel lugs? You mean this?
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/pistol/pict0547b.jpg
I do not know, maybe some area which was left unpolished. What else can it be?
Also the slide stop I just sent you, is it going on this gun? If so you're going to need to probably relieve a bit more off the lugs if it's already in a bind as the pin is @ .200 instead of the stock .196 Not alot of difference, but enough to cause more of a problem if not addressed. Check fit before you do it though.
Yes, that's the gun on which the slide stop will go. Can you please elaborate on what I should check?
OK gang, conclusions. From my checking, I think there is very little clearance between the top of the barrel and the slide. Four pieces of paper will definitely not go in there. One maybe and this with difficulty. Now, how to enlarge that clearence? As far as I can see, the barrel rests OK in the frame, so I am not sure I understand how to let it go further down, to increase that clearence, unless the hood is rounded of more. But somehow, I do not think this is the way to go.
As always, looking forward to your comments.
1911Tuner
9th July 2004, 09:40
John said:
OK gang, conclusions. From my checking, I think there is very little clearance between the top of the barrel and the slide. Four pieces of paper will definitely not go in there. One maybe and this with difficulty. Now, how to enlarge that clearence? As far as I can see, the barrel rests OK in the frame, so I am not sure I understand how to let it go further down, to increase that clearence, unless the hood is rounded of more. But somehow, I do not think this is the way to go.
__________________________
Okay John...Your clearance is a little shy of the mark, but if it's not
beating your lugs up, about all it will cause is a little wear on the tops
of the lugs and hood...which will work to increase the clearance over time.
You'll need to keep the area clean to prevent harder contact, though...
especially in the barrel bed and link area.
Increasing the clearance entails removal of material in key areas, and is
fairly simple, but unless you've done it, it's my advice to take it to a smith.
You can remove a little from the bed...about .003 inch...and a little from the
area of the barrel behind the lower lug...another .003 inch...You can
take a little off the back of the lower lug...another .003 inch...but this is
the last resort. Removing material from the back of the lug can cause
other problems if it causes the link to stop the barrel instead of the impact surface in the frame.
Removal of metal in the bed will require that you follow the radius carefully.
I use a Dremel with the large sanding drum held at a slight angle and very light pressure. One pass and check...one pass and check, etc. for a maximum
of .003 inch material removal. If you use more than light pressure, the drum will grab traction and skid sideways across the frame rails. If you see more than just light sparking...you're using too much pressure.
If that's not enough, I radius file the bottom of the barrel behind the lower lug,
with a file that has a safe side so as not to remove the fillet radius at the
lug/barrel junction. Leaving a sharp corner there can lead to the lug cracking
or shearing off. This radius must be carefully followed also. .003 inch... maximum!
You can get another thousandth of an inch or so by using a strip of emery
cloth to polish the top of the barrel hood and lugs...Polishing it until the
scratches are smooth is about all you want to do there. Use the strip of cloth
in a "Shoe-Shine" technique to follow the radius of the lugs and hood.
Check this also...With the gun together and the recoil spring plug out, pull the
slide fully rearward and use a flashlight to look into the bed area. If the
barrel is in the bed with no gap under it, it's as good as it will get. If there's a
gap, you may be able to get the barrel to fall a little farther by filing the sides
of the chamber area where it contacts the inside of the slide when the barrel links down. Just a little...and don't file up to the sides of the lower lug and
destroy the fillet radius at the junction of lug and barrel. Use a felt-tip marker to color the barrel so you can find the contact points.
All these things will provide enough clearance...but again...unless you're
able to use a file to follow a radius, and maintain the bed's shape exactly,
it's best left to a smith. Don't try to get all the clearance by removing metal from one place...Better to get a little from several places than all from one
area.
Luck!
TUner
wichaka
9th July 2004, 15:44
Also the slide stop I just sent you, is it going on this gun? If so you're going to need to probably relieve a bit more off the lugs if it's already in a bind as the pin is @ .200 instead of the stock .196 Not alot of difference, but enough to cause more of a problem if not addressed. Check fit before you do it though.
Yes, that's the gun on which the slide stop will go. Can you please elaborate on what I should check?
_________________________________________________________________
Take your barrel and place the slide stop pin where it goes, thru the link. Now rotate the link around the radius of the barrel lug. There should be minimal clearance as it goes around the barrel lug. If it touches anywhere, dress it down accoringly. Like I said this will be a bit bigger than the stock pin size.
Also do the slide stop pin test with this new one, as Tuner pointed out above. Just to be sure this one won't add to your problems. On an already properly fitted barrel, I've not seen a problem yet. But always check.....
John
10th July 2004, 02:20
Will do gentlemen, I will do.
At the moment, I am trying to fight the high temps we have here, around 38 C, which is above fever level. Stupid me, I have an air con sitting outside, but I still haven't got someone to connect it for me. Darn!
Thanks again guys.
vBulletin v3.0.13, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.