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SAN JOSE
29th March 2008, 02:18
Is there such a thing as Maximum Effective Range for the 1911 Pistol? Reason I ask is I've seen a Browning HP with an adjustable sight out to 500 meters. Can the .45 ACP reach that far?

Hunter
29th March 2008, 02:27
I believe 500 meters is very optimistic with any handgun.
I have been successful with the .45 Automatic out to 100 yards but much further would require a lot of skill and some luck I believe.

Soft Walker
30th March 2008, 23:12
I think the real question is at what range can the shooter be expected to hit a reasonable sized target consistently with a hand gun. I do not know any shooters who practice shooting at 100 yards with a .45 Auto. Fifty yards would be pretty far and twenty yards is more common.

Hunter
31st March 2008, 00:02
I think the real question is at what range can the shooter be expected to hit a reasonable sized target consistently with a hand gun.
I think that depends of the shooter.
I know more than just a few who practice at a 100 yards with a handgun. That will show you flaws in your technique that closer ranges may not.
If the question is about defending oneself then the law will dictate the distance.

SAN JOSE
31st March 2008, 12:50
Hunter, that's precisely my point...if the firearm is effective at longer ranges, I guess it would be advantageous to practice making those long shots instead of handicapping ourselves at short distances....much like a good basketball player who can hit the perimeter as well as the rainbow shots. Well, I know it's easier said than done...but with practice...one may attain a level of consistency.

nunya
31st March 2008, 14:13
So what's the holdover with a .45 at 500 meters? I think you'd have to measure that in furlongs.

NE 1911
31st March 2008, 15:18
Occasionally I shoot my 1911s at 100 yards, usually when Iím sighting in a rifle and waiting for the barrel to cool. I set up a cardboard box about 12x15 filled with dirt on the berm I shoot against. Iíll get out the 1911s just to see if I can do it, its actually kind of fun although the practical considerations are probably few. (unless someone bets you that you canít do it)

Surprisingly there isnít as much hold over at 100 yards as you might think and once you figure it out you can pretty well consistently score hits. Iíve even done this with my Kimber Ultra Carry II, I figured with the 3 inch barrel that wouldnít work at all but I was wrong and trust me,,,,I'm not that good a shot.

As for being effective, I have no idea but Iím sure not going to volunteer to stand 100 yards or 500 yards away and let someone shoot at me with a 45 auto...or a 9mm, 32 auto, 22 long rifle, ect......

I did shoot at a coyote at over 500 yards one time (25 years ago) with my Colt 70 series. He was at the edge of the cattle herd during caving season and I mainly wanted him to leave (plus I didnít have a rifle with me). The hold over was substantial, as was the wait time for impact and no, I didnít hit him, it impacted about 30 feet to one side of him, but he left the area.

flyfish
31st March 2008, 17:46
I shoot at 100 yards frequently at metal gongs. I have a lot of fun but given that practice I don't think I would engage a life threatening target at that range if other options were available. By the way i score hits 80% of the time on a 12"x12" gong.

Hawkmoon
31st March 2008, 18:06
Is there such a thing as Maximum Effective Range for the 1911 Pistol? Reason I ask is I've seen a Browning HP with an adjustable sight out to 500 meters. Can the .45 ACP reach that far?
Sure. The warnings on a box of .22 shorts say the range is 1 mile "Be Careful." There's little doubt that a .45 ACP bullet can be launched 500 meters. The question is, what are you considering to be "effective"?

The Hi-Power was originally developed around the 9mm Parabellum. You don't say so, but is it safe to assume that the pistol you saw with the long-range sight was a 9mm? Even if it was a .40 S&W, that's rather "optimistic," considering that the U.S. Army generally considers the maximum effective range of the M16 to be 500 meters. (Yeah, I know, but my basis for that statement is the fact that the built-in bullet drop compensator for the original 4x scope developed for the M16 was calibrated only to 500 meters.)

Neither a .45 ACP nor a 9mm bullet is going to be carrying much energy out at 500 meters. In fact, the 5.56 M16 round isn't considered to be highly effective beyond about 150 meters due to loss of velocity. I would prefer not to be shot with a .45 ACP or a 9mm at 500 meters, but both will have lost a lot of "oomph," nonetheless.

Then there's the problem of hitting what you're shooting at. In this regard, the 9mm is a much flatter shooting round at that distance. A 230-grain .45 ACP bullet typically will be 2.6" above line-of-sight at 25 yards, 2.5" high at 50 yards, 3" low at 88 yards, and 6.9" low at 100 yards.

By contrast, a 124-grain 9mm bullet will be 2.1" high at 25 yards, 3" high at 50 yards, 1.7" low at 100 yards, and 3" low at 106 yards.

Despite the 9mm being a lot flatter out to 100 yards, it should be obvious that for both rounds, to hit anything out at 500 meters your hold-over is going to be measured in feet, not inches. I think it was 1911 pistolsmith Chuck Rogers who awhile ago wrote an article about his back yard range, and the fact that he can shoot out to 600 meters. And I believe he commented that the hold-over was rather extreme at that distance. Hitting anything with a first shot would be highly unlikely -- you'd have to start shooting, and "walk in" on the target (if you didn't run out of ammo before you got the range).

flyfish
31st March 2008, 20:28
Thanks for the comparative info 45 vs. 9mm. I was surprised at the difference in bullet drop between the two. I seem to remember the artillery Lugers had long range sights but I might be mistaken. Thanks Hawk.

OD*
31st March 2008, 23:35
I do not know any shooters who practice shooting at 100 yards with a .45 Auto......
Now you know 4 of us. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

SAN JOSE
31st March 2008, 23:56
Very enlightening Hawk...thanks.

John
1st April 2008, 02:04
Thanks for the comparative info 45 vs. 9mm. I was surprised at the difference in bullet drop between the two. I seem to remember the artillery Lugers had long range sights but I might be mistaken. Thanks Hawk.
I think the Luger (or some variation of that pistol) did come with long range sights.

SAN JOSE
1st April 2008, 02:26
The Hi-Power was originally developed around the 9mm Parabellum. You don't say so, but is it safe to assume that the pistol you saw with the long-range sight was a 9mm?...

Yeah that's right Hawk....the HP was in 9mm Parabellum, but the name isn't familiar....Inglis (?)...Canadian made?

forestranger
3rd April 2008, 10:54
A long departed friend, who put me to shame w/his shooting, had a 24" plow disk set up at 200yds outside his "reloading shack". He routinely shot at it w/1911s and hit it most of time. I did good to hit it 2-3 times per mag. I remember just holding at the top of disk most times I hit it.

IZinterrogator
3rd April 2008, 18:14
Busting out my Special Forces Weapons Sergeant Handbook (I'm not an 18B, but it's a really good reference), it lists the actual effective range as 50 meters. All hits out past that are either real good shots or just lucky. I'd assume most posters shooting farther than that and hitting fall under the skill category, otherwise they wouldn't be posting here. :D

I'm decent out to 100 meters with an M9 myself.

littledoc
3rd April 2008, 20:31
Now you know 4 of us]
Me too, that makes five ;)


I'm decent out to 100 meters with an M9 myself.
Six :D

As an aside, it's the same with the 5.56. I know a Marine who removed a threat at a measured 783 meters with an M16A2. It was real nice shootin', took 4 shots. It is definitely out of the norm, but can be done.

The Hi Power probaby had tangent sight and was fitted for a shoulder stock. The idea with that set up was the same with the old battle rifles fitted with sights out to 2000 plus yard/meter sights. A rifleman wasn't expected to hit individual targets at that range, they were used to create a beaten zone for massed fire.

But, then again, there are a surprising amount of people who have been able to shoot 1000 yard matches with the old 1903 and iron sights, putting them in the 10 ring....

John
4th April 2008, 00:14
Ahhh, do you guys mind, if I do not stand there at the 50 meters line, when you guys shoot at me with your 1911s or M9s?? I'd rather be back at the firing line with you, thans you very much!

SAN JOSE
4th April 2008, 00:37
If I have the option, I'd rather engage adversaries in a gunfight at long ranges knowing I have the skill to pot at them at a distance....of course, proficiency at close quarters comes first.

schoonie
4th April 2008, 02:08
Like it was stated earlier, when the first auto pistols were made, European weapon makers thought of the pistol as having small carbine capabilities. Hence, many of the Lugers and the FN pistols Browning developed were made with attachable shoulder stocks to shoot the smaller calibers like 9mm and 7.63. Thinking these calibers were viable at medium rifle caliber ranges, they placed adjustable tang sights on them. Not too practical since velocity and energy dropped off rapidly after 100 yards. U.S. shooters concentrated on larger calibers for more shock power at to 25 yards or less.