Colt Series 80 Info

[1911Tuner]

In light of new members comin' in who want to know what the differences are between the Series 80 Colts and the original design 1911s...

There are 4 additional parts...two in the frame and two in the slide.

Frame: Trigger bar lever and plunger lever.
Slide: Firing pin plunger and the spring that drives it.

There are also differences in some Series 80 parts. The parts that are modified are:

Grip safety...Firing pin...Firing pin stop...Extractor. All other parts are the same. The named Series 80 specific parts will work in Series 70 and pre- Series 70 pistols without modification, but not vice-versa unless the frame levers and the plunger and spring are removed from the Series 80 pistol.

The half-cock notch on the Series 80 hammer is also different, but all hammers
will physically interchange between the two designs. You can use a pre-80 hammer in a Series 80 pistol with the system intact. Likewise, a series 80 hammer will work in a pre-Series 80 pistol.

Swapping triggers between the two designs will physically work, but if the
bow is a little too short, the trigger bar lever may not move the plunger lever
upward enough to release the firing pin completely. There is a simple check
for that possibility in the event of a trigger change, and should be done
whenever a trigger is swapped.

Triggers with overtravel screws are also a potential trouble spot in a Series 80 pistol. If the trigger travel is limited to the minimum by the screw, the same
caution applies as above.

The difference in trigger pull between Series 80 and pre-Series 80 pistols is
negligible, assuming the same geometry and surface prep/finish on the related trigger group parts.

The Series 80 system does NOT make the pistol more safe to carry in Condition One, contrary to many widely-held mistaken beliefs. It's also no LESS safe. Both systems require that the trigger be pulled before the gun will fire, assuming that the thumb safety is OFF and the grip safety is depressed.
The Series 80 passive firing pin block only renders the gun more drop-safe.
All else is equal. Bottom line: It's a GUN. It's NOT safe.

[Prezzz]

I keep these handy for when this topic comes up.

http://members.cox.net/rtset/45samp6.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rtset/1911series80.jpg

[John]

Excellent info, as always.

I'll grab some of it, to update the section in the Home Page, which talks about the Series 80.

Thanks Tuner

[bladeplayer]

I have my eye on a Series 70 MKIII. I have a 1991A1. Other than your excellent description below is there anything specifically I should be aware of from a functional point of view? Thanks. Bladeplayer
Also, if anyone can help. I just received a Wilson Full Size Recoil Rod and attempted to install this on my 1991A1. It seems a bit too long. I got the rod, wrench, bushing and spring. The overall length is approx. 4 1/8". It is a 2 piece. Does anyone have any experience with this type of modification I am trying? Thanks.

[Silverslug]

The 2 piece guide rod should be even with the end of the recoil spring plug. You have to use the allen wrench each time to field strip your gun. The standard barrel lug wrench is used after you take the guide rod appart. I hope this makes sense.

[bladeplayer]

Thanks Silver. It makes more sense now. I will try it that way and see if things line up. This reminds me of the removable guide rod I use for reassembly of my Walther P22. What do you think about during reassembly of just doing the one piece then inserting the other piece after the barrel bushing has been put in place? Thanks. Bladeplayer. Appreciate your help.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy bladeplayer,

One issue that I've noticed in a few recent Colts that rarely showed up in early Series 80 pistols is the timing of the firing pin release. If your gun is
used, I'd suggest that you disassemble the slide and check the plunger for signs of this. It will show up as a roughened area on the plunger near the top,
just above the groove. The rough area is the result of the plunger failing to lift high enough to clear the firing pin spring, and it takes on a sort of splined appearance. If it's very light...right on the corner...it can be dressed smooth, and probably won't give any more problem, but it would be a good idea to re-check it after another 200 rounds or so just to be sure.

It the damage is more than what you can just barely feel with a thumbnail, it needs attention, and a plunger replacement. The plunger lever in the frame...
the one that you can see beside the hammer...is numbered. Yours will probably be a #1, but they're available as 2...I believe 3 (tough I've never seen a #3) and "N". The higher numbers indicate that the lever will lift higher in the frame, and thus lift the plunger higher in the slide in order to obtain clearance between the firing pin spring and the plunger. Installing the highest one..."N"..right off the bat is generally a bad idea, since the plunger can lift TOO high, and create a bind condition, so it usually requires getting one of each and test-ftiitng them to find the right one. Colt may require that you send the gun back to them to have the system timed if yours has this problem.

If the gun is to be strictly a shooter, the simplest thing to do is to remove the system and replace the frame levers with a 5-dollar shim, available from Brownells. I'd suggest replacing the firing pin spring with a standard spring too. If the gun is to be carried, I generally don't recommend removing the system, because if you're involved in a shooting, an issue may be made of your altering a designed-in safety system...even though the only "safety"
that the Series 80 system provides is in making the gun more drop-safe.
Other than that, the Series 80 is no more or less "safe" than pre-80 guns.
And no...The Series 80 isn't more safe to carry in Condition One than any other 1911-pattern pistol...firing pin safety or not.
____________________________

SilverSlug..I think you mean "Bushing Wrench"...Unless the barrel bushing is tightly fitted to the slide, you shouldn't need a wrench to turn it.

Luck!

Tuner

[Silverslug]

Thanks Tuner, I did mean bushing wrench, I was about half asleep when I wrote that thread.

Bladeplayer thats exactually the way I would re-assemble it. Screw the guide rod end in last after everything else is assembled. I had problems with my two piece rod, it would work lose after about 100rds, keep a check on it and keep it tight. I switched to a one piece its much easier to break down and less worries. I hope this helps.

[1911Tuner]

SilverSlug said:

Thanks Tuner, I did mean bushing wrench, I was about half asleep when I wrote that thread.
__________________

Oh..I know about THAT, believe me... :rolleyes:
Sometimes I'm up and on these things at 0300 hours , and write somethin' before I get enought coffee down my neck. When I go back and read it,
even I get confused... :D

Turbocoffee anybody?

Cheers!

[SMMAssociates]

I was wondering what the heck a "barrel lug wrench" was.... :confused:

No issues with my Commander - standard short recoil spring guide, but my Para came with some instructions covering one and two piece recoil spring guides, solid, and short too....

The first time I was going to pull it apart, I read the instructions, and realized that I had no idea what they were talking about. I'd had a couple of 1911's apart over the years, but never ran into anything but the standard short spring guide. We're talking "should have been in Urdu"....

I noticed, with great trepidation, that the plunger was oddly shaped, and appeared hollow, although I wasn't sure what was in the hole. Help.... :eek:

Well, being slightly adventurous, I grabbed the (supplied, nice touch) bushing wrench and pressed on the plunger. The bushing moved as it should have, and the plunger came up as it should have too. It definitely was hollow, and kinda sharp. (Now we know why there was a plastic wrench in the box.)

End of panic.... Full length guide rod, but otherwise quite ordinary stripdown. Toss the instructions into the drawer and begin cleaning....

I kinda like the full length guide rod idea, but I'm not religious about it.

For what I paid for that Para, though, I think it should have come with a more specific instruction book. :)

[bladeplayer]

Thank you all for your responses. I have the guide rod in and find it is easier to install second piece after barrel bushing and recoil plunger is in place. Thanks for the help. Tuner, thank you for the in depth info on the 70 vs 80. I am actually looking at it more from a collectable stand point. My 1991A1 works great, plus I have Charles Daly EMS( if I ever get it back from the factory) for carry. Plus another dozen or so. I do not think having a carry piece is the problem. It is great to jump on here and read and learn more about this stuff. Thanks again to all.
Bladeplayer

[bladeplayer]

One last question. Yeah right! Anyway, I just picked up a set of Novak low profile white outline rear and front sights. I can change the rear without difficulty, I am apprehensive about the front post. I do not want to cause any damage to the slide. Have you ever done this before? Does it pop right off my 1991 or do I need a smith to do this? Also, any type of adhesive or machining to attach the front post, not even sure how to remove the front one. I am hoping it is easier and less intimidating than it seems. Thanks. Bladeplayer

[Silverslug]

The front sight is not as hard as it looks. There are some things you need to complete the job: Front sight staking tool (Brownells $30), padded bench vise , Dremel tool, a small punch and Hammer. The 1991 should have a wide tendon front sight. Place the slide in the padded vise upside down,front of the slide facing you. using the dremel with a grinding bit and gently grind away the flared part of the bottom of the sight tendon. Next take the punch and tap the old sight out from the underside. Install new sight using using the staking tool. Place the new sight in the matching hole in the slide. Place the slide top side down on a firm surface ( I use a piece of stainless steel covered with a piece of leather) , take the staking tool and hammer, flare out the bottom of the new sight to secure it. Last take the dremel tool and smooth out the bottom where you've flared the sight so the barrel bushing will fit without any interference. The staking tool comes with some good directions. I have installed about 6 so far, I was scared on the first one but its not that bad, just take your time so you don't scar the slide with anything. I hope this helps and makes sense. :)

[bladeplayer]

Wow, thanks. I will let you know how I make out. I am glad the rear is easier. Bladeplayer

[suprchrgr]

I understand how the series 80 system works, but there is only one mystery to me. If the firing pin is locked buy the lock/plunger, why can I move the firing pin in with my finger? is it because of the inertia firing pin design?

[SMMAssociates]

Suprchrgr:

Are you seeing a lot of movement, or just a little play?

If you're getting a lot of play, you might want to check and see if the plunger is actually there.... Some people remove these things.

It's not, I think, a solid lock. It just restricts movement so it won't move very far. If it was solid, it'd be likely to screw up the trigger action (even more). It's got to have a lot of slop in it.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy,

With the plunger in place and everything working like it should, the firing pin will move just about enough to sit flush with the firing pin stop. You can check the function easily.

Remove the slide and take the barrel out of it. Lay the slide on a table and
push in on the firing pin with a suitable tool...A nail that is smaller than the
hole in the firing pin stop plate will do...Watch the breechface to see if the pin comes through. If it does, the firing pin isn't being blocked. If it doesn't come through, you're golden.

Luck!

Tuner

[howie]

i cant seem to get a wilson drop-in grips safety to work in my 10mm.
it working in all my other 1911s but not my delta elite . and put any factory
grips safety and they work right . put in the wilson in and pull the trigger with out grip safety being used and the hammer falls . help please. or should i just buy a king grip safety . thanks for the help howie :D

[swampertwo]

Although it is called a "drop-in" it needs to be fitted to the gun it is going to be used in ONLY.
Sounds like yours has been fitted to another gun and the tip of the trigger/sear block is too short/been filed off too much.
Time for a new one to fit to your Delta.
Jeff

[howie]

it was new i bought to put in the delta .wright from the bag it wont work
so i try it in some of my other 1911 gi type and it worked ? had the same problem with 1911-1 compact. i bought a king for my compact and it work wright from the bag :confused: :confused: :confused: maybe i need to send out the frame and have it fitted ???? have wilson drop-in in
about 4 other and they look and work great :confused: any body know what the problem is ? the help would be great thanks howie

[1911Tuner]

Mornin' Howie,

Swamper nailed it...even though it's a new safety. The specs stacked up against you and the lug isn't quite long enough block the trigger. You can stretch the lug and refit it with a punch and hammer.

Lay the lug flat on a block of steel or the tailstock of a bench vise and punch the lug at the point of contact to move a little metal forward. Flip it over and do the other side. Light stoning may be required to get the lug to release the trigger. Be careful not to bend the lug.

You can see the area of contact by looking into the magwell with a flashlight
and operating the safety and trigger. Study it for a few minutes and you'll
see where it sould hit. Don't overdo it. It probably won't need more than
.010 inch or so of displacement to effectively block the trigger.

A different trigger may make it unnecessary, since a different trigger may be .010 inch longer to start with...and may work perfectly. It's all in which direction the tolerances go. If your trigger is .010 shorter than spec...and your lug is .010 shorter...there's over a 64th inch working against you.

Drop-In is a relative term...Too many dimensions and tolerances involved to
guarantee that a part will drop in and work. It very well might...but it's best not to count on it.

Luck!

Tuner

[howie]

thanks guys will try it tonight when i get home from work.
will keep you posted :D :D

[howie]

hi guy it work many thanks :D :D :D you safe me many of hour and $$ try to solve that problem.

thanks again howie

[Mike Nicholas]

Hi guys,

I am thinking of carring conceled, a 70's series commander with one in the chamber ..... I am looking for some feed back ( pro or con ) as to the safty-ness of doing this.

Thanks

Mike.

[swampertwo]

Grip safety fully operational and tested-thumb safety tested operational--should be good to go.
1911's been carried in Condition 1 many a year that way.
Jeff

[Mike Nicholas]

Thanks swamper.

[SMMAssociates]

Mike:

Wearing one right now....

I alternate that with a Para Tac-Four, which is my avatar and yours too. Betcha you didn't know what it was - an LDA can have an almost non-existent hammer. The "grooved" Pearce grips and the arched mainspring housing are my add-ons. (Think "double-stack Commander", but the Para's grip frame, although about the same width as a Commander, is rather more square; the Commander's kinda oval. My Commander has a Wilson drop-in beavertail and Pachmayr grips, too. Very comfortable to shoot.)

The important thing about Condition One ("Cocked & Locked") is that the safeties all have to be in good working order, and to keep you finger out of the trigger guard unless you're really serious. The trigger shouldn't be "hair trigger", but it probably will be fairly light, and there's just about nothing between you and an AD except training. You also need to practice flipping off the safety - I don't think anybody will tell you to carry one of these with the safety off.

It also scares the sheeple.... Hammer back looks agressive. Most people don't realize that the grip and hammer safeties are there to allow that kind of carry. It takes a heap of bad luck to AD without actually pressing the trigger. Even a holster-related problem is unlikely if you don't touch the grip safety. However, be sure about your holster - try to force an AD (unloaded, of course) and see what happens. If you can do it deliberately, you probably will do it accidentally.

IMHO, the real hazard is the "startle" reaction. Normal draw, presentation, etc., and then you put your finger on the trigger. Somebody says "boo" and it's BANG.... Any firearm can do this, of course, but an SA is just a little more likely to. (This is why you should avoid "hair trigger" firearms in general.)

(The Para's an LDA, which is a whole other thread, but has a very long trigger travel compared to the Commander. A little better....)

Overall, not for the newbie, but you can train into it easily enough. Don't carry the thing until you're really practiced up on it!

(Don't trust the safeties, either.... The grip safety can be a little iffy on the range and not cause any problems. I don't know how the slide mounted hammer safety can fail, but I'm sure it can. Trying to swap in a beavertail teaches you much.... Test them while the gun is empty during cleaning. Clean it regularly, too. Crud & corruption can cause reliability problems, as can lubrication issues.)

In proper hands, and in good condition, any 1911 should be about as safe to carry as any other semi. Then there's the intimidation factor.... That thing looks like a 12ga. when it's pointed at you. You may not need to fire it.... :eek:

[swampertwo]

I'll try to make this a link--probably one of the best descriptions of the testing of safties I've run into--Bill really knows and can put it in words even I can understand........
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

As always,practice, practice, practice and on a carry gun you probably want a trigger pull at about 4# to preclude an AD.
Jeff

[SMMAssociates]

Swamper:

My Commander was about 10 pounds when I got it! :eek:

The guy who willed it to me had diabetic neuropathy, and had lost a good deal of sensation in his fingers. He set it up so he could feel it.

The funny thing was that it shot just fine. Probably 'cause I'm an old wheelgunner. However, I had a local gunsmith put it back to normal.

My old S&W M39, though, is way too light in SA, although it's DA pull is about as smooth as anything I've ever fired (and about six pounds).

Regards,

[Mike Nicholas]

Thanks for the advice Stu,

Actually I have done a lot or research on the LDA's and i'm within a half of heart beat of getting a black watch companion or the new tac-s... I have shot many a single action over the years but never carried one locked and cocked 24-7..... and was wondering how safe they really where when being carried in the "real world"

how lond did it take you to get use to your LDA? and do you have any problems in transition from your s.a to d.a.?

Thanks,

Mike.

[Mike Nicholas]

swamper,

Thanks for the link on the "safty check"

Mike.

[SMMAssociates]

Thanks for the advice Stu,

Actually I have done a lot or research on the LDA's and i'm within a half of heart beat of getting a black watch companion or the new tac-s... I have shot many a single action over the years but never carried one locked and cocked 24-7..... and was wondering how safe they really where when being carried in the "real world"Well, you do want to avoid flipping the safety lever off in a holster, but that's about the worst of it. A drop on the hammer could damage the thing, but is unlikely to AD, and the drop that makes the internal, inertial firing pin fire the gun is a one-in-a-million. Other than that, the "startle" thing is probably the only real risk, since the trigger's going to be a tad light v.s. a revolver, for example, which hasn't got any safeties at all if you don't count the various transfer-bar schemes.

how long did it take you to get use to your LDA? and do you have any problems in transition from your s.a to d.a.? Instantly, with no problems.

However, I have to explain that....

The LDA is a little strange.... It's really an SA masquerading as an DAO.... What this means is that when you pull back the slide, you compress the mainspring, and essentially cock something. Squeezing the trigger actually makes the hammer come back (you can't cock the weapon with the hammer, though), until the sear trips, and the spring is released to slam the hammer into the firing pin. Recoil re-cocks the spring & such, but the hammer stays down.

The safety lever is not a decocker - it just locks the slide and keeps the sear from releasing the spring. The hammer still comes back! The grip safety also locks the slide for some reason, as well as blocking the sear.

If you're still with me, what this boils down to is that operating the slide to chamber a round has a similar effect to cocking an SA. You just don't see anything. Then when the trigger is pressed, it's a normal SA firing, except that the hammer comes back.

The trigger pull length is quite a bit longer than "normal" for an SA, and the letoff is a little light, but it's fairly easy to get used to. I really think the pull is longer because the transfer bar that moves the hammer needs the longer pull to do it's job, which is to get the hammer to the point that the internal stuff can move it when the sear trips.

About all that means is that you can't thumb-cock the gun, and the transistion between it and an ordinary 1911 is largely the longer trigger pull.

"Light Double Action" is kind of a marketing thing :) .

In my case, because my Commander's got a slightly heavier trigger than the Para, the "feel" is almost the same - just a longer pull for the Para. Everything else is pretty much the same....

One problem I ran into - we were kicking around the need for extended slide stops here someplace, and one of the guys suggested ignoring the slide stop unless you're trying to close an empty gun. Just pull back on the slide once the new magazine is seated. My Commander almost never responds to that trick. The Para does.... No idea why except that the Commander has an aftermarket extended slide stop that may not be contoured for that trick.

It still seems to boil down to "practice, practice, practice".... IMHO, a clear and conscious decision to wipe the safety during or after the draw, plus just not putting your finger into the guard until you're almost ready to shoot (which is good range discipline anyway), should keep you out of trouble. Other than the safety, it's really not a lot different than a DA revolver; just a shorter, lighter trigger pull....

Regards,

[coltsr]

Tuner, I don't see how the firing pin spring could come in contact with the plunger. The plunger lifts well behind the spring. I checked mine and it does have a very hint of roughness just above the cutout in the plunger, but have to almost get a magnifying glass to see it. It goes all the way around the plunger. Actually its right after the cutout ends on the plunger and the bottom of where it starts to flare out again above the cutout.
Coltsr

[1911Tuner]

Tuner, I don't see how the firing pin spring could come in contact with the plunger. The plunger lifts well behind the spring. I checked mine and it does have a very hint of roughness just above the cutout in the plunger, but have to almost get a magnifying glass to see it. It goes all the way around the plunger. Actually its right after the cutout ends on the plunger and the bottom of where it starts to flare out again above the cutout.
Coltsr

You're right...Sorry. I musta had springs on the brain when I wrote that...
or maybe I was thinkin' about removing the pin and spring and how the plunger has to be depressed to let the spring get out of the tunnel.

Lordy....This gettin' old business is a pisser sometimes. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the heads up, coltsr

Happy New Year!

[Mike Nicholas]

Stu,

Thanks for the information... I didnt realise the lda was ( cocked ) when the slide was pulled back, but it does explain the light trigger pull. have you ever had one of these things apart? what are the chances of something breaking inside and causing the weapon to fire without the trigger being pulled ? (seeing how it is "cocked")

I have allready e-mailed para and they have said an extended realese will fit on the Tac-s... but it is good to hear you can send the slide home by pulling it to the rear.


all things considered...wich one do you like to carry the most?

Thanks,

Mike.

[SMMAssociates]

Thanks for the information... I didnt realise the lda was ( cocked ) when the slide was pulled back, but it does explain the light trigger pull. have you ever had one of these things apart? what are the chances of something breaking inside and causing the weapon to fire without the trigger being pulled ? (seeing how it is "cocked") Mike: I've had the mainspring housing out, and the sear spring (including that little coil spring). I don't think it's any more likely to fire itself than any 1911. There's a stripdown thread here on the board that kind of lays out how to get it apart, but I chickened out. I suppose "Cocked & Locked" is "Cocked & Locked" here, but the sear arrangement should be the same as an average SA-only weapon. The hammer-block safety should protect you there, too, unless it's actuating lever raises itself somehow. Lotsa little parts in there, but I don't think it's that bad.

I have allready e-mailed para and they have said an extended realese will fit on the Tac-s... but it is good to hear you can send the slide home by pulling it to the rear.I need to ask about the extended release, too, just to match the Commander, but pulling the slide is a great way to do it and avoid hardware changes. Not that changing a slide stop is any big deal if it doesn't require fitting.


all things considered...wich one do you like to carry the most?
I kind of switch off.... The Para's extra mag is a PITA (double stackers are HEAVY) and I haven't got a belt clip for it yet. The Commander is almost the same size & weight, but at least I have a belt clip for the extra magazine. The nice thing is that when one gives me a problem at the range, the other one's usually fine, so I'll carry it until I get 'em sorted out. I also tend to grab the Commander when I want a little more concealment 'cause the grip frame is slightly smaller. (They're both the same width, but the Para's "square", while the Commander's grip frame is an oval. Prints a little less.) It also appears that the Para doesn't like +P loads whereas the Commander doesn't mind them, but the Para will feed about anything....

Kinda fun having both! I decided that I liked the .45 and the 1911 enough to carry it, but didn't like "Condition One". The Para looks less agressive, but it actually is in "Condition One" in normal carry. Kinda why I bought it. After getting used to the Para, with lots of range time, I realized that the Commander was pretty much the same, practiced a lot more, and....

Regards,

[Mike Nicholas]

Thanks for the info Stu,

I hope you guys on the forum have a " happy new year"

Mike.

[N7CAV]

I found (And use) these handy little things for my Series-80 pistols:

Brownelles Part Number: 876-011-780

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13121&title=1911+AUTO+FRAME+SLOT+BLANK&s=31597#31597

Be sure to remove the firing pin plunger if you make this modification. I noticed on all of my 1991's that the plunger was beat to death around the inner radius, and over time, would be a false safety anyway. The levers are not 'tuned' from the factory enough to fully-engage the plunger in most cases. You would think some thicker "match grade' parts would be available to give a closer fit, and fully engage the plunger. Anyway, these work well, and are a lot easier to install than the two-piece "Lawyer Lever" when assembling the weapon.

If anyone lost their lever(s) springs or plungers, PM me and I'll gladly drop a replacement part in the mail for you.

[randyscott]

Hello everybody,

This is my first post ,but I really like the site so far. My father had his 1911 stolen a couple of years ago, and my siblings and I are going to get him one to replace it. Anyway, we arent't sure exactly which type it was and we don't want to ask him because we want to surprise him.

My mom got it brand new for him 25 years ago would it have been an 80's series model or something else?

Thank you very much
randy

[John]

25 years ago, it could be a Series 70 pistol also. I would suggest the Series 70 from Colt, even though there are others around.

Rgds

[SMMAssociates]

Randy:

El Commandante (I can't spell Caradimas) has the right idea....

The major difference between the Series 70 and Series 80 is a firing pin block in the latter. Enough people complained that Colt is now selling new guns without the block. (I forget what it's called.)

If memory serves, some 70's also have an odd barrel bushing with little fingers on it. Those should be replaced ASAP with standard bushings.

DO NOT remove the firing pin block from whatever you buy unless it's strictly a range gun. The folks suing you because "he was a good boy when he wasn't in jail" will jump on anything you did to alter the safety of the weapon. If you do remove it, there's a little spacer that you need to replace the actuating lever. Otherwise, you've got a potential disaster on your hands.

(If you buy one that's been modified, it shouldn't be a problem. About any good gunsmith and $10 worth of parts can add it back or remove it.)

The way to spot this little beastie is to latch the slide open and look at the underside of the slide almost all the way back to the rear end of the slide. If you see a little round plunger that's lightly spring loaded, that's the "new" firing pin block. Unless you know 1911's you may not spot the actuating lever for it.

The good news out there - $600 and up will buy an excellent 1911 clone. The guys here may have a recommendation. Plan on a bit more for a real Colt, although you may find something on the web (I wouldn't buy that way) that's a little cheaper.

I ran into a situation last week - a friend runs a reloading factory and sells presses & such too. A guy came in and said that he was able to buy a high-end Dillon for about $50 less than my buddy's rate. "OK - but which caliber "adapters" came with it?" "I paid $50 for that...." (My friend includes one setup with the press.... :rolleyes: )

Welcome to the group, too.

The other alternative is to head out to a decent gun shop and send us the ones that look good. We'll test 'em for a couple of years and.... :eek:

Regards,

[randyscott]

Thanks every one for your imput it is very helpfull. Just email me your address and I'll send a couple we are looking at to you to test :D .

Thanks again
Randy

[elkhunter]

Hey guys. New here, but I have been reading up and you guys really seam to know your stuff.

Do you guys know if a new ADJUSTABLE MATCH TRIGGER, 3 HOLE will work in my series 80? Mine still has the stock trigger and I wanted to put a trigger job on it.

Thanks for any help.

[wichaka]

Yes, they will work.

[swampertwo]

However, a "trigger job" is a lot more than just replacing the trigger.
In order to get lower trigger pull, it is necessary to rework/recut/reangle the mating surfaces of the hammer and sear for a better release. This is best done by a 'smith that knows what to do--else you may come up with a second or full auto 1911(and that's not really neat). :D

[1911Tuner]

Physically, any single-stack trigger will work...although most of the aftermarket triggers require a little fitting, since the fingerpieces are a bit oversized. There is one issue to be aware of when dealing with the Series 80 system whenever triggers are swapped out.

The firing pin block is deactivated via a pair of frame-mounted levers, and
they are put into play by the trigger...or more exactly...the rearward trigger travel.

The trigger bar lever rotates and cams upward on the plunger lever. The plunger lever depresses the slide-mounted plunger and allows the firing pin to reach the primer. If either of the two levers doesn't reach sufficient height,
the firing pin can remain completely or partially blocked. This can result in weak primer strikes and/or unreliable ignition...or a damaged plunger.

The issue is related to the dimensions of the trigger bow itself. If it's slightly shorter than the stock trigger, it won't provide as much lift. If it's longer,
it will provide a little more...and too much is as bad as not enough. There's a
fairly wide window of opportunity there though. More on that later.

The second issue to watch out for is in the overtravel screw that these triggers are equipped with. This screw limits the amount of trigger travel
after the sear breaks, and some guys try to get that down to the bare minumum. If the travel is limited too much, the results are the same as having an out-of-spec trigger...Not enough movement of the Series 80
parts to provide reliable or correct deactivation of the firing pin block.

The Series 80 parts can be removed entirely, and makes this a non-issue. It
requires a 5-dollar shim and removal of both levers and the plunger and spring assembly from the slide...effectively turning the gun into a pre-Series 80 or
Series 70 pistol. I recommend installing a standard firing pin spring for this,
as the Series 80 springs tend to be a little soft. Be aware that removing any
designed-in safety feature of a firearm opens you up to civil actions should the gun be involved in an accidental shooting, and possibly even if involved in a justifiable defensive shooting. If you remove the parts, you must be prepared to accept full responsibility. For what it's worth...all my Series 80 pistols are sans the Series 80 parts, but they are range-only guns and
never carried.

Luck!

Tuner

[wichaka]

Also if you get the adjustment on the trigger too short, you won't get enough clearance between the hammer and sear when the trigger is pulled, resulting in damaged sear nose and bad trigger pull in the short run ( not the long run)..........

[Jim Clark]

Gentlemen-

I've heard of a kit that will allow cocked & locked carry with the hammer down. Some how, with the hammer cocked & the thumb safety on it allows you to push the hammer forward. There is a click 7 & it stays forward. Then when the thumb safety is released the hammer goes back to the cocked position ready to fire.

Does anyone know of, or have experience with sucha thing?

jim :)

[Sabre]

Gentlemen-

I've heard of a kit that will allow cocked & locked carry with the hammer down. Some how, with the hammer cocked & the thumb safety on it allows you to push the hammer forward. There is a click 7 & it stays forward. Then when the thumb safety is released the hammer goes back to the cocked position ready to fire.

Does anyone know of, or have experience with sucha thing?

jim :)
Heard of it. It's made by Cylinder and Slide

I think most people will tell you that it's a very expensive answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

[Jim Clark]

I agree that it's not a problem to carry cocked & locked. Others, not so familiar, are put off if not frightened. When I'm pimpin' the 2nd amendment, I'd rather not have to explain why my gun is cocked. If it's expensive, that's a negative. If it affects reliability that's terrible.
THANKS
jim

[1911Tuner]

Heard of it. It's made by Cylinder and Slide

I think most people will tell you that it's a very expensive answer to a problem that doesn't exist.


Bingo. Too busy and too much "Murphy" opportunity with that thing. It was primarily developed for folks that can't get over bein' sqeamish about carryin' a cocked pistol or agencies that will okay a 1911 for duty, but not in Condition
One. An answer in search of a question.

[SMMAssociates]

I think a product of that type was reviewed here last year - around the time the "Slip 2000" stuff was posted. Can't find it.... :mad:

My choice (I wasn't comfortable with Condition One) at the time was the Para LDA.

It's still more "Politically Correct", I suppose, but I've gotten over that, and carry my Commander alternately with the Para (same size, etc.).

If memory serves (which might be a first :eek: ), the one posted here was a "drop-in", meaning that it could be removed easily.

Murphy being alive and well, the Para may be a better choice. There are plenty of DA/SA and DAO choices out there, too.

I'd like to try one of those, just for the heck of it, but not for carry. :cool:

[John]

Gentlemen-

I've heard of a kit that will allow cocked & locked carry with the hammer down. Some how, with the hammer cocked & the thumb safety on it allows you to push the hammer forward. There is a click 7 & it stays forward. Then when the thumb safety is released the hammer goes back to the cocked position ready to fire.

Does anyone know of, or have experience with sucha thing?

jim :)
I've asked Mr. C&S to send me one for testing some time ago. His answer was that his company policies didn't allow him to send me something so expensive, free, for testing. As far as I know, he is a one man show, so, who set the rules? Anyway, I also believe that it is a solution to a non-existing problem.

Rgds

[SMMAssociates]

I've asked Mr. C&S to send me one for testing some time ago. His answer was that his company policies didn't allow him to send me something so expensive, free, for testing. As far as I know, he is a one man show, so, who set the rules? Anyway, I also believe that it is a solution to a non-existing problem.Rgds John:

I think he should at least send me one, or maybe Tuner, 'cause the postage would be less. :D

I'd like to compare it to the Para just for kicks. C&S is a hotbed of quality, so only the reliability (and sanity) issues would apply. :eek:

Here's the URL for it: (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.shtml)

(I do worry a bit about them. They offer a heavily modified PPK/S - the S&W model - for about $1600 that's been dehorned and fitted with a huge beavertail and some other mods. I can see why you might want to do some of those things, but the gun is around $300US NIB, so that's one expensive upgrade. C&S Walther Upgrade. (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/walthercustom.htm) )

WTH - Para's selling a ton of LDA's, and what I remember seeing is somewhat similar. It might actually be workable. I still think buying a Para would make more sense than that conversion, but something loopy like that might be fun on the range.

Kinda like the old VW Bug where you'd park one in a driveway and then ask a friend to back it out. Unless you knew the trick, you'd never get it into Reverse.... :cool:

Regards,

[John]

Kinda like the old VW Bug where you'd park one in a driveway and then ask a friend to back it out. Unless you knew the trick, you'd never get it into Reverse.... :cool:

Regards,
LoL, let's see what was it? Press down and to the right and rear? Or left and rear? Gee, my father used to own a few of these things, funny little cars (especially when equipped with a Porsche engine!).

Rgds

[SMMAssociates]

LoL, let's see what was it? Press down and to the right and rear? Or left and rear? Gee, my father used to own a few of these things, funny little cars (especially when equipped with a Porsche engine!). Rgds John:

I'm not sure anymore. I never owned one, or, for that matter, even drove one, but I was clued in somehow. A girl I was sweet on had one, and it seemed like I picked the trick up while checking her out, just in case I had to move her car, but nothing ever came of it.

They were interesting cars, though.... (Interesting girl, too, but that's another story. My #1 assistant there bought a Pinto at about the same time. About the same price. Unfortunately, the Pinto had to be repainted twice before it was paid for. The VW had some wet-weather problems, but it looked as good the last time I saw it as it did the first time - six or seven years between the two.)

(My wife had a Pinto, too, come to think of it. It needed repainting, too.... Must be a pattern there.)

No Porsche engines in the Ford Pinto - might have been fun, but. The little bug, OTOH, was a lot more adaptable. My daughter wants one of those "new beetle" models, but she needs to make a few bucks first. I really wish she'd replace her Taurus - it was a "salesman's car", with about the biggest non-SHO engine you could get, dual exhausts, etc. Not slow.... :eek:

Regards,

[ottobon100]

I have a new Colt Combat Commander XSE (Series 80) and the trigger is loose. I mean it will move back and forth horizontally a tad more than an 1/8". Looking at Prezzz's picture it looks like it isn't touching the trigger bar lever. Is it supposed to? Is it supposed to be this loose? My Para 16-40 and two Kimbers don't have this play. Para had the Series 80 stuff, now removed, and Kimbers are both "Series 1"; e.g., no Series 80 stuff.

[SMMAssociates]

(After John and I went off topic.... :D )

Hopefully somebody will come along who really knows, but I think a 1911 trigger should have 0.020"-0.030" of light spring-loaded travel before you're up on it and about to fire squeezing through 4#+ (another 0.005"-0.010"). That's "front-to-back", while you're squeezing. There may be a stop adjustment of some kind that keeps the trigger from moving further to the rear once the sear trips. My Commander doesn't have or need one, but I wish the Para (LDA - way different trigger type) did.

I don't think it should be loose - no spring action at all, rattling around, etc.

There should be less than 0.005" side-to-side play - there's no reason for it, and it doesn't help the trigger-sear relationship at all.

You shouldn't remove the Series 80 firing pin block safety from a carry gun. What you do with range guns is entirely up to you. I think the consensus here is that there's no consensus. :) My own view is that it's not a problem if you're not building a competition gun. It shouldn't hurt the reliability of a carry gun - one more thing to break, but it's pretty simple - almost the same principle as the disconnector, and we don't talk much about removing them. :eek:

(If you buy one that somebody else has "adjusted", that may be a grey area, but IANAL. I would be tempted to fix that, or get somebody who knows how.)

(Pontification Mode OFF....)

Regards,

[ottobon100]

I mic'ed it. It has about .040"-.045" of play horizontally. There is no spring load or notable resistance of any kind. I wouldn't take the Series 80 stuff out of a carry gun either which I hope the Colt will be some day when I get the gremlins worked out of it. Here is my Para 16-40 built by Dawson Precision, not a carry gun, that I took all of the "extra" stuff out of. Used only in USPSA competition. Love it! Any other ideas on the trigger rattle? Maybe a short trigger bow put in by Colt by mistake?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/ottobon100/Para1640002a.jpg

[SMMAssociates]

A short trigger bow could definitely do that, and it'd be easy enough to drop in the wrong one or have a bad one.

A harried human QC checker might not even notice that - particularly if wearing a good glove. (Maybe even less visible in a fixture or some kind.)

Good guess!

I saw a brand-new P1445 at my dealer's yesterday. Almost.... :D Not as pretty as your pictures, but nice.

Regards,

[lincoln]

hello! i would like to ask if anyone in here knows the running price of a colt series80 38 super would cost?...blued. tnx

[low8option]

hello! i would like to ask if anyone in here knows the running price of a colt series80 38 super would cost?...blued. tnx

Picked up one back in Feb in SS for $650 from a dealer going out of business. I see them on internet auction sites for $750-900. Doesn't seem to make much difference if its bule or SS when it comes to pricing. Good luck, the 38 Super is a great cartridge in the 1911.

[KillitnGrillit]

Thanks Tuner!

[lincoln]

Picked up one back in Feb in SS for $650 from a dealer going out of business. I see them on internet auction sites for $750-900. Doesn't seem to make much difference if its bule or SS when it comes to pricing. Good luck, the 38 Super is a great cartridge in the 1911.

hello low8option!
got ur advice! i have a new 38super colt series80. even im used to 45cal. i feel weird with the ammo of 38super. tnx for the advice :D

[low8option]

hello low8option!
got ur advice! i have a new 38super colt series80. even im used to 45cal. i feel weird with the ammo of 38super. tnx for the advice :D

You'll get used to it. My wife loves to shoot my 38 Super and loves. This is the same woman who has tried the .45 three times and doesn't like it and refuses to shoot it. About the cheapest place I've fopund ammo is Cheaper than Dirt on line. Good luck and good shooting.

[texas5-0]

I am new to this forum but not new to shooting. I know that this has probably been asked a zillion times but here goes. I have a couple of Colt MK IV series 80 pistols. I was wondering what year they were made. I checked my Blue Book and my Colt Dates of mfg book and they both stop in 1978. I dont want to pay 100 dollars to Colt because I dont care about the family tree of the gun just approx what year it was made. Thanks for any help !!!

[scooter]

I am new to this forum but not new to shooting. I know that this has probably been asked a zillion times but here goes. I have a couple of Colt MK IV series 80 pistols. I was wondering what year they were made. I checked my Blue Book and my Colt Dates of mfg book and they both stop in 1978. I dont want to pay 100 dollars to Colt because I dont care about the family tree of the gun just approx what year it was made. Thanks for any help !!!

To my knowledge there is no currently printed books on dates etc. past 1978 or so..... 1 800 926 colt (I believe this is the right number).

[rickleon]

I'm brand new at this forum stuff, so please bear with me. I usually like to remove the firing pin and extractor for cleaning after every shooting session. I found that this task is considerably more "fiddley" on my just procured Series 80 than my Springfield Mil-Spec. I have two questions: (a) Am I wasting my time doing this particular cleaning operation so often? And (b), can the Series 80 be safely operated if I remove the little spring and plunger from the slide? (I wouldn't toss those pieces, but I would store them in my spares box.) Thanks.

[swampertwo]

I believe it's not necessary to clean that deep after every range session.
As for removal of the firing pin block, if you remove the spring and plunger you will also have to remove the 2 levers in the frame and install the little spacer in place of them. That is available from Brownells.
I would not use a so modified pistol for anything but target shooting, definitely not for any carry due possible legal difficulties if you should ever have cause to use.
Jeff

[SMMAssociates]

Rickleon:

Just removing the plunger and spring isn't a good idea - the lever in the frame may catch on the edges of the hole.

I'm told that the spacer Brownells sells is just for gunsmiths checking their work, and too soft to be trusted for long-term use. Probably the only way to fly is to grind the top off the original lever.

I'll also echo the "don't do this to a carry gun".... Paranoid-R-Us, but basically in the event that you actually do use the gun and end up in Civil Court (there would be very few Criminal issues) gives the BG (or his survivors) a legal leg-up on the "hair-triggered evil gun nut who removed a safety device from his gun" angle.

If you play with the plunger a little, you'll see that you can control the location of the hammer end of the firing pin with it. That's sort of the clue. You need to push the plunger in to move the firing pin so you can get the firing pin stop out of the slide, and may have to fiddle with it a bit to remove the extractor.

I pull the firing pin and extractor out of a 1911 when the area around the extractor claw gets a little dirty and my pointy q-tips don't quite cut it. Maybe a thousand rounds or so. Or, if I'm seeing any "issues" - extractor acting up, or goofy things like the firing pin stop falling out of the gun....

(A local smith managed to get some crud in the firing pin channel of my Commander while tuning the extractor. Amazing how that stuff works....)

Regards,

[rickleon]

Many thanks guys. I'll not be so anal in my cleaning regimen. I'll likely be taking both pieces to a smith for a detail strip and cleaning fairly soon anyway: the Colt having been purchased second-hand. Thanks also for your encouragement in leaving things just as they are re the FPS system. I only gave it thought, because it complicates things a bit. I also thought that the little lever was contributing to the seeming grittiness of the trigger pull, but a local smith put me straight. Heck, I haven't even fired the thing yet; I picked it up only yesterday!

Rick

[N7CAV]

Many thanks guys. I'll not be so anal in my cleaning regimen. I'll likely be taking both pieces to a smith for a detail strip and cleaning fairly soon anyway: the Colt having been purchased second-hand. Thanks also for your encouragement in leaving things just as they are re the FPS system. I only gave it thought, because it complicates things a bit. I also thought that the little lever was contributing to the seeming grittiness of the trigger pull, but a local smith put me straight. Heck, I haven't even fired the thing yet; I picked it up only yesterday!

Rick

I don't pull the FP & extractor out but maybe once in six months or even a year on "range guns" - Do a good field strip cleaning, but not that good.

If you pull the plunger and spring, may as well pull the lawer levers as well. I noticed battery around the plunger on my two series-80 weapons/ The plunger isn't pushed up enough to fully clear the firing pin travel. The thing really does work, however - I reassembeled my commander with the push lever in front of the trigger bar instead of behind it - So there was no engagement of the plunger - And click-click-click . . . The FP Plunger did its job...

I've only heard of two cases (That even sounded reasonable, but not verified), where Condition One 1911 discharged due to firing pin impact. (Something hits the firingpin with enough force to ignite a primer . . .)

Kimber's system, with the grip-safety block- That seems to make more sense than Colt's trigger-driven system.

[SMMAssociates]

Kimber's system, with the grip-safety block- That seems to make more sense than Colt's trigger-driven system.

Loren:

Wander over to the Kimber boards here....

The Swartz system sounds like it'd be better, and it doesn't impact the trigger particularly.

However, it also has some glaring deficiencies. The major problem is that if you managed to squeeze the grip safety while trying to put the slide back on, and are a little hamfisted, you may damage or destroy the actuator pin. The result is a gun that looks fine and works fine, but won't ignite a cartridge.

The grip safety's engagement of the actuator pin (timing) is also quite important because the plunger in the slide is quite small, and the pin in the frame is just a pin.... Same result - the gun will appear to work until you pencil test it.

Finally, the plunger in the slide is off-center with respect to the block it's moving. This means that more force is required to move the thing if there's crud in the slide, and Kimber requires that you remove the rear sight to get at it for cleaning.

Colt uses a long lever - plenty of time to be in the right place at the right time. It does impinge on the trigger, but it shouldn't matter for most defensive guns. Strictly IMHO, I'd go with the Colt system every time.

(I've got a Para - they pay Colt royalties to use their system. I'd rather they'd not bothered, but that's another story. My range buddy has a Kimber with the Swartz safety in it. That gun went back four times before it behaved properly. Joe wouldn't let me fix it, but I got a chance to look deep into the system. Matter of fact, I told him to avoid the Series II models.... I also have an S&W CS45 that uses the Swartz setup inside the slide, but a trigger-based actuator lever 'cause there's no grip safety. I haven't tried to clean it yet. A friend, who's a PD armorer, suggested I don't.... Another armorer has had several Kimber Series II guns fail "in the field", btw.)

Regards,

[1911Tuner]

Echo the legal advice on carrying with altered/disabled safety device.

To detail strip a Series 80 slide:

Push plunger in and hold it. Push firing pin in/release plunger. Firing pin is captive in forward position. Remove firing pin stop. rear of slide up to palm of hand, 3 inches away. Push plunger. Firing pin asnd speing will eject into hand. Lay slide upside down on table. Lever extractor rearward about .050 inch. Plunger will release., may eject...so keep thumb an inch or two over it to keep it from getting away from you. May require needle-nosed pliers if the plunger, spring and hole are fouled. Spring is lively. Don't let it hit the floor.
Bring extractor out.

To reassemble:


Extractor in, .050 or so short of installed position. Plunger and spring in.
Depress plunger and push extractor into installed position. Release plunger.
Extractor position may be required to allow plunger to snap into place.
Insert firing pin and spring. Depress plunger and hold. Firing pin will drop into place. Hold plunger in while pushing firing pin until it stops. Release plunger.
Install firing pin stop. Depress plunger again. Firing pin will snap into place.

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Can you copy that and put it in a "sticky"? I knew I'd seen it before, and wanted to quote it back, but couldn't find it. :scared:

I've had my Para apart often enough to be able to do it without too much agony, but the first time was fun. :butthead:

(Excellent description!)

Regards,

[1911Tuner]

Tuner:

Can you copy that and put it in a "sticky"? I knew I'd seen it before, and wanted to quote it back, but couldn't find it. :scared:

I've had my Para apart often enough to be able to do it without too much agony, but the first time was fun. :butthead:

(Excellent description!)

Regards,


Already there, Stu. ;)

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=13535

Worded a little different, but it's there. Guess I'd better to a follow-up on the frame parts too... :p

[John]

Well, as you know, your wishes are my commands, so as soon as I saw that you wanted that to become a sticky, I did!

Johnny, I do not think you should continue with the frame, the whole disassembly instructions are already in the Home Page.

[N7CAV]

Loren:

The Swartz system sounds like it'd be better, and it doesn't impact the trigger particularly.

However, it also has some glaring deficiencies. The major problem is that if you managed to squeeze the grip safety while trying to put the slide back on, and are a little hamfisted, you may damage or destroy the actuator pin. The result is a gun that looks fine and works fine, but won't ignite a cartridge.

. . . and Kimber requires that you remove the rear sight to get at it for cleaning.

Another armorer has had several Kimber Series II guns fail "in the field", btw.)

Regards,

Thanks for sharing this experience. I'll add the FP depression test to my Kimber maintenance. Looks like all rivers lead back to the Series-70 :-)

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner & John:

Great!

I can never seem to remember where I saw that stuff....

(At least I can sometimes remember how to do it :) .)

Loren:

All rivers definitely lead back the Series 70.... The Kimber guns not marked "Series II" are OK, too - none of that lawyer-inspired stuff. Colt and Kimber are both still making guns without those "options".

I'd avoid S&W 1911's for the same reason (Swartz safeties). I don't think Springfield's doing that.

(I'd also avoid any "internal lock" gimmickry if possible. Another one of those things you want to remove but can't.... I wasn't here, I didn't say this, but the Springfield locks are pretty easy to swap out 'cause I always seem to swap MSH's anyway. :p )

Regards,

[rickleon]

Echo the legal advice on carrying with altered/disabled safety device.

To detail strip a Series 80 slide:

Push plunger in and hold it. Push firing pin in/release plunger. Firing pin is captive in forward position. Remove firing pin stop. rear of slide up to palm of hand, 3 inches away. Push plunger. Firing pin asnd speing will eject into hand. Lay slide upside down on table. Lever extractor rearward about .050 inch. Plunger will release., may eject...so keep thumb an inch or two over it to keep it from getting away from you. May require needle-nosed pliers if the plunger, spring and hole are fouled. Spring is lively. Don't let it hit the floor.
Bring extractor out.

To reassemble:


Extractor in, .050 or so short of installed position. Plunger and spring in.
Depress plunger and push extractor into installed position. Release plunger.
Extractor position may be required to allow plunger to snap into place.
Insert firing pin and spring. Depress plunger and hold. Firing pin will drop into place. Hold plunger in while pushing firing pin until it stops. Release plunger.
Install firing pin stop. Depress plunger again. Firing pin will snap into place.

Tuner,

After reading the above and seeing the m1911/stripn 1.htm page, I couldn't resist detail stripping my Series 80 slide once more. By golly, that little hint about depressing the plunger after pushing in the fp really works! Heck, it actually makes removing the fp easier than the pre-FPS Springfield Mil-Spec.

Btw, my 80 apparently is an earlier version, as the slide stop cutout is milled through the top of the slide rail. Anyone have any receiver cracking problems in that area?

Rick

[1911Tuner]

Neat, huh? When an oversized stop is fitted...and it's really tight, the Series 80 system makes it a lot easier to remove it, since the plunger is that third hand that none of us have.

The milled-out bridge...nah. Notta problem. Most of the older pistols that have seen a lot of mileage usually crack on that thin section eventually anyway. The crack doesn't weaken the frame and removing it doesn't
either. Seems like I heard somewhere that Colt started doing that after so many of the Deltas came back for warranty repair after the bridge cracked...
even though it didn't really mean anything...but try telling that to a disgruntled customer. I actually prefer that the section be removed. Much less likely to have an issue with the slidestop not making full engagement
and having to break out the files to make it happen.

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Neat, huh? When an oversized stop is fitted...and it's really tight, the Series 80 system makes it a lot easier to remove it, since the plunger is that third hand that none of us have.

Finally a reason to like the Series 80 firing pin safety.... :D

Somebody wanted to say hi to your collie:

http://i1.tinypic.com/mrtxjq.jpg

He'd come to visit but he's not allowed to cross the street.... :)

Regards,

[OD*]

I heard somewhere that Colt started doing that after so many of the Deltas came back for warranty repair after the bridge cracked...
That's correct, it is the early Series 80s that have the full rail. The 10mm cut-out started around late 1988 early '89.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner:





Somebody wanted to say hi to your collie:

http://i1.tinypic.com/mrtxjq.jpg

He'd come to visit but he's not allowed to cross the street.... :)

Regards,

Which one? I've got five...and a Sheltie and a Pit and two Labs and a Byrnese Mountain Dog and a Yorkie-Peke and a...hard to say what Bobby is, but at least he's little...and a Bluetick. :D

[COTTON302]

I have my eye on a Series 70 MKIII. I have a 1991A1. Other than your excellent description below is there anything specifically I should be aware of from a functional point of view? Thanks. Bladeplayer
Also, if anyone can help. I just received a Wilson Full Size Recoil Rod and attempted to install this on my 1991A1. It seems a bit too long. I got the rod, wrench, bushing and spring. The overall length is approx. 4 1/8". It is a 2 piece. Does anyone have any experience with this type of modification I am trying? Thanks.
I have a 1991A1 with a two piece guide rod. It should be to long to rotate the bushing with out removing the front piece of the guide rod. Use the allen wrech to remove the front portion of the guide rod (this basically puts it back to the orig configuration) then rotate the bushing and disassemble like normal. Hope that makes sense.

[COTTON302]

I have carried my Colt with a two piece guide rod for 12 years....It doesn't give you any real advantage over the 1 peice full length guide rods. Swith to a one piece. Just my opinion after using both.

[flyhalf]

What's the difference in the FPS on a S80? Can you purchase, modify and install the one from EGW as stated in the other forums?

[flyhalf]

Oh yea, triggers with overtravel screws seem to bottom out on the S80, what is a good replacement for a S80 trigger then?

[OD*]

Series 80
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/296100001.jpg

Series 70
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/296000058.jpg

You can get them both from EGW or Brownells. ;)

[flyhalf]

Same specs on modification of that part as previously discussed?

[OD*]

Same specs on modification of that part as previously discussed?
Yes sir. ;)

[flyhalf]

Gotcha.
Any ideas about what trigger will fit in there (for a S80)?
Thanks for the previous info. This site is great! Your great. 1911's rock out.

[Stone Knife]

I use this one from DLask:
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/253102003.jpg
And it works fine; you can just leave the overtravel screw out.

A tip I'd like to pass on to new Series 80 owners: every time you re-assemble your lower frame, before putting the slide on, lower your hammer and then squeeze the trigger a couple of times to make sure your lower linkages are installed correctly.

I didn't do this once and discovered later that week that I'd been carrying a pistol that wouldn't have fired if I'd have needed it.

This was discovered while practicing with some snap-caps and it just didn't sound right. Sure enough, the lower frame link (next to the sear) was rotated incorrectly and was not pushing up on anything. It also beat the ()*&%$ out of the firing pin plunger, but the potential loss was much worse than a $6 part.

[SMMAssociates]

Stone Knife:

Excellent suggestion....

Testing that should be a non-problem for anybody who knows how to take apart a frame, but I think it underscores a need to pencil-test any Series 80 before you load it up for the street.

(I've got a Para PX745E - essentially a Series 80 clone with their Power Extractor. Haven't gotten around to tearing down the frame yet, but it's on my list. I've also got a Tac-Four - that's an LDA - that I'm not going to take down.... :nono: Definite evidence of alien abduction in that design. :scared: Both guns use the Colt-style FP safety. Don't get me started on the Kimber Swartz safety. Those need to be pencil-tested each time they're cleaned - no need to remove parts to kill one.)

I just wish the LDA had a trigger stop.

(For the one guy out there who doesn't know what a "pencil test" is, clear the weapon, and then cock the gun and drop an ordinary pencil - eraser end first - into the bore. Hold the gun muzzle-up and squeeze the trigger. The pencil should stick in the ceiling.... You can test a revolver the same way, but don't forget to cock the thing before inserting the pencil.)

The other month my range buddy and I were shooting at those "tell you what you're doing wrong" targets. We were both having a bad night. The targets suggested "find another hobby" :D .

Regards,

[Stone Knife]

Good ideas too Stu.

I was surprised at how badly the firing pin beat up the FP plunger. It's obviously not designed to do that many times or for long!

All the user needs to do with the Colt design, anyway, is watch for the upper link to pop up when the trigger is squeezed. Then you know you're good to go.

I'd forgotten about the pencil trick, that's a good one.

[BoB D]

are Wilson Combat pistols 70 or 80 series. Thanks

[Rio Vista Slim]

are Wilson Combat pistols 70 or 80 series. Thanks
Bob D,
Although the terms "Series 70" and "Series 80" do not apply to Wilson Combat products, your question is, nonetheless, valid.

Wilson pistols DO NOT use a firing pin safety system.

Hope this helps.

[slambang]

Hello;this Is The First Forum I Have Ever Res.on And Trying To Figger It Out But Have Already Got Some Good Info On My Ser.80 Thanks I Will Keep Reading
Slambang
Ps Got To Figger Out How To Use Spell Ck

[John]

Start by not typing every word with the first letter being capital. It makes reading your post difficult. Also, avoid shortcuts. This is not a cellular phone, your messages can be quite lengthy, so you do not need them. Then just hit the Spell Check button after you write your message.

[SMMAssociates]

Slambang:

Welcome!

Lots of good information here.... We hope you like the place. John's got a lot of useful technical articles hiding in plain sight on the front page, too. I found something I'd missed (in something like two years here) while mucking around killing time visiting my mom in the hospital. (WiFi link for visitors.) (She's home again - in and out of the hospital since early May.)

Regards,

Stu.

*****

(Saving a slot.)

Start by not typing every word with the first letter being capital. It makes reading your post difficult. Also, avoid shortcuts. This is not a cellular phone, your messages can be quite lengthy, so you do not need them. Then just hit the Spell Check button after you write your message.
John:

Maybe he's using a cellphone or PDA? Getting here with my PDA is fairly easy if there's a WiFi link nearby. The "keyboard", OTOH, is really bad. I've never tried to get to the forum from my cellphone, but that's even worse....

Regards,

[mmcrow]

I Just Got A Nib Goverment Model But I Don't Think It Says Whether Its A Series 80 Or Not What Else Could It Be.

[Rio Vista Slim]

I Just Got A Nib Goverment Model But I Don't Think It Says Whether Its A Series 80 Or Not What Else Could It Be.
If your pistol is a current production model, the odds would favor that it is a Series 80. However, it might not. What does the roll mark on the slide of your pistol say?

[ricky_45]

I am looking at a mid-90s colt 80 series. It is parkerized and the left side of the slide reads "Colt M1991 A1"

Anything to be concerned about with this model?

[OD*]

Colt's M1991A1 is an excellent pistol. Some folks don't like the rollmarkings, but I have never had the rollmarkings affect the function of the gun. ;)

I have two of the 91A1s an love 'em. :D

[Bud White]

nope nothing wrong with the 1991a1

[1917-1911M]

Let me see if I understand this. I have a MKIV Series 80. Except for legal concerns in an actual shooting I can remove the firing pin block and spring and the two pivot levers.

1. Do these parts in fact have any impact on trigger pull, creep, etc.? Will my trigger pull be smoother without them installed.

2. Do I need to install a spacer or cut the arm off the top one and keep the two levers in place. Why just not remove them. I don't see anything on the left side keeping the sear/disconnect from moving around. Why would I need this spacer on the right?

3. Why when I have this particular firearm, all stock parts in place, hammer half cocked, can I sometimes pull the trigger causing the hammer to drop all the way against the firing pin/stop and other times the trigger has no effect? Has there ever been a discharge concerning this drop from half cock? Thanks. M1911

[SMMAssociates]

Let me see if I understand this. I have a MKIV Series 80. Except for legal concerns in an actual shooting I can remove the firing pin block and spring and the two pivot levers.

But Mas Ayoob won't be sending you any Christmas presents if he finds out.... The potential Civil legal issues probably make this a bad idea, IMHO, but it's your choice.

1. Do these parts in fact have any impact on trigger pull, creep, etc.? Will my trigger pull be smoother without them installed.

My somewhat uninformed opinion is that you'll not feel it but the trigger definitely is doing "something else" that John Browning didn't design into it. Purists would insist on removing stuff like that. IMHO there's little reason to assume that it'd kill the trigger in a self-defense gun, but a target weapon might (MIGHT) be adversely effected. I'd expect it'd effect the trigger pull a little.

I'm a little suprised that nobody's marketing a replacement safety plunger that's machined to just fit the hole without impinging on the firing pin's movement. I'd expect the liability lawyers would have a field day. Same for a "leave it in" spacer from Brownells. Difference probably is that the spacer's a "test instrument" or some such.

2. Do I need to install a spacer or cut the arm off the top one and keep the two levers in place. Why just not remove them. I don't see anything on the left side keeping the sear/disconnect from moving around. Why would I need this spacer on the right?

The space the two levers fill has to be dealt with. Otherwise the sear is going to have some side-to-side play that's probably not desireable. Same for the hammer.... Brownells sells an "adapter" but it's really intended for testing. Just pick up another top lever (the lower one can be left alone) and cut it off. I suppose a washer with a similar thickness and ID might work, too, but there are "hardness" issues. (The Brownells adapter is apparently too soft....)

3. Why when I have this particular firearm, all stock parts in place, hammer half cocked, can I sometimes pull the trigger causing the hammer to drop all the way against the firing pin/stop and other times the trigger has no effect? Has there ever been a discharge concerning this drop from half cock? Thanks. M1911

AARGH.... I forget.... I think the pre-Series 80 hammer's got a "shelf" on the engagement surface that holds the hammer in half-cock permanently but the Series 80 design drops that feature. The hammer is not supposed to fall hard enough to hit the primer (or at least to detonate it). IAC the thing should be consistent. (I don't think it's a good idea to drop the hammer unless the gun's pointed "downrange" or somebody's firing at you....)

I don't have a Colt handy just this second (1970's Combat Commander in the office upstairs). My little Kimber could have either hammer design. It's pre-Series II but the half-cock thing has been on the Series 80 guns for a long time before Kimber built this thing. I'll stand with "find a gunsmith"....

I still stand with the "don't do it" crowd. Unless you've got good "Castle" protection. (Actually that's not the right name for it. But you get the idea.)

Regards,

[John]

Legal issues aside (I am not a lawyer, I won't go into them), here are some things to consider:

- People say that the S80 parts do affect their trigger pull. I can't verify that, my tests show negligible effect on trigger pull with or without the S80 parts.

- Removing the S80 parts is a little more complicated than just removing everything. First, the lower lever can not just be removed, as it's been said. In order to make room for those levers the right side of the frame is machined, so if you just remove the lower lever the sear will be able to move sideways which is not good. The top lever can be removed, since the hammer is well contained by the frame and will not move sideways, but it is better to either replace the top lever with a filed one or replace both levers with the shim that Brownells sells, just to be on the safe side. Of course all the parts from the slide have to be removed (plunger and plunger spring).

- Finally the Series 80 pistols have a hammer with a non-captive half-cock (or rather quarter-cock) notch. The hammer will fall from that notch if the trigger is pulled. However, since this notch is cut closer than the standard half-cock notch in older hammers, even if the hammer falls from that notch, it will not ignite the primer. Personally, I do not like this feature, so I would replace the hammer with one having a true half-cock notch, a captive one.

[SMMAssociates]

John:

Thanks....

I couldn't remember whether it was the Series 80 or prior models that had the captive "half-cock".... I don't like it either.

(I have to check my Commander. It should have the captive mode hammer, but the guy who willed it to me may have changed the innards.)

I think Tuner will take umbrage if you recommend Brownell's "adapter". Or at least he's my source for "don't use that"....

Better to cut the top lever....

I don't think it's a good idea to leave the top lever in place after cleaning the naughty bits out of the slide. I'm concerned that the lever may hit the plunger hole in an undesireable way eventually. Cut off, though, there's no problem.

From a self-defense standpoint, the effect on the trigger shouldn't matter, and there are good (if not great) legal reasons not to muck with it. For target use it may be a good idea to get rid of it - nobody seems to really know.

Regards,

[1917-1911M]

Thanks guys, I think I'm beginning to get a clearer picture. I'll post pictures of the hammer soon. I expect that concern about soft metal and for gunsmith testing only is a caveat to protect the manufacturer from liability. I'd as soon take the top lever off although I tested mine thoroughly, gun upside down, shaking it all around pulling the trigger and I couldn't get the arm with the block and spring removed to bind in anyway.

I'll try out my Lyman digital on it both ways. What I do feel quite a bit of is trigger creep in this pistol and I was wondering what part if any these pieces might play in that. I had the pistol worked on by a gunsmith to lower the trigger pull to 4.5 lb. It didn't feel like 4.5 and there was still a lot of creep. Bought a Lyman and it's 7 lb, not 4.5. My next step will be to buy my own tools and learn to do this work myself.

Can you recommend a great book on the 1911 covering all models and tuning work. The more detailed with the "why and how" the better. I'm still not clear on why this pistol will drop the hammer from the 1/4 cock position, say, three times in a row then stop......fully cock it, lower the hammer by thumb, and it's back to dropping from this position for several times before the trigger will no longer drop it. :butthead:

Of course I always keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction but this is the only pistol I've ever had drop the hammer and then stop. It is accurate and I've never had any issues with it at all until I got the bright idea to try an after-market 10 round extended mag and then all it would do is stovepipe. Threw that one away. If I can't measure any difference in trigger pull with the Lyman, I think I will just leave it in. There was no damage to the firing pin block so the timing there must be good. M1911

PS, John you mention "non captive" 1/2 cock. What is that exactly? Thanks.

[John]

You need no book, all information you need is in here.

Trigger pull: Go in the Technical Issues forum and read the article called "The Poor Man's Trigger Job". That should give you a very decent trigger pull, guaranteed.

Non-captive half-cock notch. Original 1911 hammers had a half-cock notch from which the hammer would not fall, if you pull the trigger. Somewhere in the 80s, if memory serves me right, Colt introduced the new hammer, which had a non-captive 1/4 cock notch (the notch was closer to the fully uncocked position of the hammer, than the half-cock notch was) from where the hammer would fall, if you pull the trigger.

Try cocking your hammer slowly. If the notch is around the middle of its travel, between the at rest position and the fully-cocked one, then you probably have a hammer with a warn-out half-cock notch, a bad thing. You need a new hammer. If the notch is very close to the beginning of the hammer's travel, then you probably have a non-captive hammer, but a non-captive hammer would always let the hammer fall from that notch.

Also, if you want to learn more about the 1911, go to our Home Page and spend some time reading there. The links are at the top of every page here.

[1917-1911M]

John, this hammer drops into the partial cocked position very quickly, 1/4 to 1/3 the way to full cock. It must be the non-captive style. Still not clear why the trigger will drop it, manually pull hammer back to this position, trigger drop it, pull it back again and the trigger won't move it. Will read up on information in the other sections. Thanks. M1911

[John]

It's tough to say why the hammer drops the first time and will not drop the second without having the gun in one's hands. I would definitely take it apart, clean it up well, lube it and carefully reassemble it and see what goes.

[1911Tuner]

It's tough to say why the hammer drops the first time and will not drop the second without having the gun in one's hands.


Sear reset probably. If it resets to the hammer, a captive notch will grab it. Pulling the trigger can't move the sear. If the sear only resets far enough to stand on the edge of the captive half-cock notch...pulling the trigger will move it.

[John]

Johnny, weren't Series 80 pistols equipped with the non-captive notch?

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, weren't Series 80 pistols equipped with the non-captive notch?

They were supposed to be...but given Colt's habit of never tossing out anything useful, the early ones could have been equipped with either one, since there's really no real difference in the function. I've heard of...but haven't seen any personally...early series 80s with captive hammers. I have an early 70s production Combat Commander that I bought unfired/ANIB, and it has a black anodized aluminum mainspring housing...something that was supposedly only installed on LW Commanders. When Colt runs short of a specified part, and a non-specified but useable substitute part is available...they're not gonna shut down and wait for the right part. They'll use what they've got and get it out the door.

[1917-1911M]

Pictures of hammer, sear, disconnect for this pistol. I'm not sure if this will tell you anything or not. Pistol is 11 - 12 yrs old, purchased new, has always dropped the hammer from the partial cocked position. I would say the partial cock is only 1/8" from the slide. Had a gunsmith work on it to lighten pull to 4.5 lb and install an adjustable trigger.

Looks like some work was done to the hammer and the sear and disconnect being very lightly polished. Everything appears smooth and clean, feels smooth, Lyman digital says 7 lb trigger though, clean and with good lubricants. Gun is carried everywhere and always performs perfectly. Quite a bit of trigger creep though. Crimson Trace grips work fine too. Hope the pictures tell a story. :) M1911

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/1917-1911M/IMG_0047.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/1917-1911M/IMG_0053.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/1917-1911M/IMG_0051.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/1917-1911M/IMG_0050.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/1917-1911M/IMG_0049.jpg

[John]

The hammer has a non-captive half-cock notch, that's for sure. It should fall whenever you pull the trigger from that position.

And the disconnector is inserted wrong in the second and third picture. I hope you do not assemble it in this way. Upside down.

[1917-1911M]

:D No, just laid it out in the cold and sunlight so you could see the work that had been done to the front side. It doesn't appear any polishing was done to the other side.

So what is the point of this first notch, something to keep the hammer away from the firing pin in case of a dropped pistol? I still want to eliminate much of the creep and will read up here for tips on that and I will leave the 80 series safety components in if the consensus is they don't interfere with the trigger and I will average 10 pulls with the Lyman with the parts in and out and post results. I appreciate the comments expecially from some of the top experts here. :) M1911

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Thanks for jumping in. Haven't seen you for a bit.... Looks like M1911's got the "real" Series 80 hammer, which really makes that "lockup" a little strange.

With that flipped disconnector, I was beginning to think that M1911's related to me, but I guess not :) . I was swapping an MSH on my old Commander the other night and put the little pin in the wrong way.... Cock the gun and turn it the wrong way and you get to look for the thing.... We won't even talk about the fun I had making a $12 SS housing fit. I ended up running a drill through the frame and MSH - about a zillionth of an inch larger than the original hole. That got things to line up :butthead: . The original housing had been fitted, but I stole it for a new Para last summer, and the Para's plastic housing fit regardless.... It's growing a new Kimber .22 conversion slide as soon as my dealer gets one. The frame can take that, although I don't think it's safe with .45's anymore.

Anyway, the only thing I can figure with M1911's gun is that the angles aren't quite right and/or there are some burrs or "not quite flat" flats in there. The aforementioned Commander went goofy when a local smith didn't clean up after "tuning" an extractor for me. (I don't use him anymore.)

M1911: Great pictures.... I don't see anything, but Tuner's the expert. IMHO the quarter-cock is still a sort of safety device. Half-cock's have been on guns as a safety (among other things) since forever, and however it got there, I suppose it's got some value. The quarter-cock probably is less confusing since there's no way (hah!) to not get it out of the way if the shooter manages to get there unintentionally, as I see it. A panicked shooter stuck with a gun at half-cock could break something.... Tuner will probably correct me. He does that a lot :scared: .

What bothers me about this situation is that if your gun has a damaged sear, it could be unreliable when cocked. As in "not holding the hammer back". You might actually get to test that hammer-block.... If it's just the quarter-cock then I wouldn't panic. Problem is that you and I don't know :( ....

Tuner? Halp!.... :D

Regards,

[1917-1911M]

Don't know about the angles but when in this partially cocked position the trigger has no free movement and as you pull it rearward it drags across something internally for 1/8" before releasing the hammer. It feels similar to trigger creep but worse. It breaks from this position at a little over 6 lbs according to the Lyman.

When fully cocked the trigger has appx 1/16" free movement before components get serious. The average for a very clean and just lubed trigger/hammer assembly was 5 lb 7 oz, avg. of 10. 80 series safety components removed.

The hammer cannot be forced off either the fully cocked position or the partially cocked position and the palm grip must be depressed for the trigger to drop the hammer from the partially cocked position. The hammer sits 1/8 " off the rear of the firing pin in this position. you wouldn't confuse it for cocked.

I've never had any issues with firing the pistol. All safety checks, check out. I assume these were designed this way but what always got me was why I could drop the hammer from the partial cock position 2, 3, 5 times and then not be able to until the hammer was cocked, reset in the partial cocked position where the procedure would repeat itself. :confused:

BTW I'm in Indian Springs, AL and haven't figured out how to add that kind of stuff. Perhaps I have to have a little more experience and senority here first. ;) I post quite a bit at RimFireCentral, especially the Walther section and my work there was appreciated enough on solving the little P-22s numerous problems to get a nice letter from the Walther small arms engineer complementing my work and a free pistol but that's another story. :rolleyes:

I'm also restoring one of my Dad's old 1911s but that's another thread in another department. I'm also building a "bunker" for Collyn Loper here in B'ham. She represented the U.S. in Athens last Olympics, womens single trap, one shot off medaling, but was a high school shooter, no coach, no practice range. She won Gold at the Pan Am games qualifying the women's shooting team. I think she'll do better if she has a place to practice close to home. Safe shootin to you all and thanks for the help. M1911

[SMMAssociates]

M1911:

Apparently El Commandante either told you how to hit UserCP or added your location....

The grip safety is supposed to block the trigger and thus keep the hammer from falling. If it doesn't, PANIC.... (The rest of the "action" you described is "OK".... I think.... I'd expect the "quarter-cock" feel would be fairly awful. There's little reason to clean that up. The full cock release is the one to worry about. 4-5# is OK.... Particularly for carry.)

The grip safety bears on the trigger if I understood the cutaways.... It doesn't have anything to do with the hammer. You don't need a grip safety (don't tell the lawyers). In it's "up" (or disengaged) position, the tip blocks the trigger. If you depress it the tip it moves up out of the way and the trigger can trip the sear.

Tuner will have to explain the rest. I'm concerned that the tip of the sear is damaged or one of the two "hooks" on the hammer (those little zig-zags) has been damaged or filed out of spec. The "real" Series 80 hammer should allow the hammer to drop from quarter-cock every time....

What's wrong with the P22? Mine is a little flaky when it's dirty, but otherwise fine (and fun).

Regards,

[1917-1911M]

I think the grip safety simply blocks rearward movement of the trigger bar until it is lifted out of the way when compressed. What a great system. There is no better arrangement than the 1911 in my opinion. What's with all the new pistols with the safety on backwards that are awquard to use. The P-22 for example, a terrible safety but I do like the magazine disconnect.

I'm new to this Forum and have already slightly stepped across the line. Is discussion of the P-22 allowed here. If so I'd be glad to give you an overview but you can read all about it at RFC, Walther section. Plenty of pictures of everything. Only rimfires are discussed there.

In studying the 80 series firing pin block mechanism I think I will put the Lyman to the test with the parts in vs. out. I've already tested the trigger with the parts out and the pull was over 1 lb less than a recent test with them in. Of course I just cleaned and re-lubed everything so it's not a fair test yet. If there is no discernible difference and the trigger feels the same, I will leave them in. It seems the only area that could possibly cause any extra effort would be the actual compression of the block spring. Mine seems to have no wear or scratches on it and the pistol has been fired several thousand times.

I still haven't found the detailed information at this site I would like on stoning the hammer/sear for the release I want. I've read nearly all of the information at the home page. I see Brownells sells a number of contraptions for sear work. I want to understand it first, with nice drawings and photos if possible. Somewhere in here this has been discussed and photoed in detail I expect. I've sort of taken my 1911's for granted in that I've never had any problems but now want to get a little more involved with them. M1911

[1917-1911M]

Trying to think a little more along the series 80 designer's mindset I thought about the following. The non-captive catch is ok on this pistol as the firing pin block will stop movement of the firing pin even if the hammer slips off of it. With all safeties deactivated I suppose it would be logical that pulling the trigger would release it. Apparently the hammer fall is so slight it won't move the firing pin with adequate force to discharge a round. So why have this notch at all?

Tradition? The idea of not having the hammer resting on the firing pin, even if blocked, possibly not having the hammer knocking against the firing pin in day to day movement/usage that might contribute to wear between the firing pin and the block. Was there ever an explanation put forth by Colt?

The P-22 has a half cock position although there is an internal firing pin block inside the breech block, a manual safety that blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin and an internal cam inside the manual safety that engages a notch on the rear of the firing pin to further block any movement. Three items to prevent the firing pin from moving and still a half cock. Why? Looks? Tradition? M1911

[John]

The reason behind the half-cock (or the quarter-cock) notch is to capture the hammer in case the hammer hooks break off. It is not a safety device and it shouldn't be used as such (i.e. carrying the pistol with the hammer in that position).

What you feel when you are pulling the trigger from the half-cock, and what you describe as creep in that case, is the sear dragging itself away from that notch. As you can see, that notch is quite deeper than the hammer hooks, so there is a longer distance for the sear to travel, before it releases from the notch.

From what I see in your pictures, the sear has not break-away angle and the various sear and disconnector surfaces could use some polishing. Read that article, The Poor Man's Trigger Job, and apply it, it will definitely take your trigger pull down and it will probably fix your inconsistent behaviour from the half-cock notch.

[SMMAssociates]

I think the grip safety simply blocks rearward movement of the trigger bar until it is lifted out of the way when compressed. What a great system. There is no better arrangement than the 1911 in my opinion. What's with all the new pistols with the safety on backwards that are awquard to use. The P-22 for example, a terrible safety but I do like the magazine disconnect.

M1911:

You're correct.... Browning did a good job adding that. A little tough to swap one unless you know what you're doing, but just beautiful simplicity. I can't say anything good about the P-22's safety, except that while it goes the wrong direction :) , it's consistent with all of S&W's M39-based designs, and the Walthers too. It also makes a fairly good decocker (except on the P-22!), and that's how I treat it on my M39 or PPK/S.

I'm new to this Forum and have already slightly stepped across the line. Is discussion of the P-22 allowed here. If so I'd be glad to give you an overview but you can read all about it at RFC, Walther section. Plenty of pictures of everything. Only rimfires are discussed there.

John will yell at you if you step over the line. DO use the "Preview" feature when posting. The "bot" that enforces language rules will tell you if you err, and I do once in a while.... Nothing really wrong with going a little off-topic, though. I'll check RFC....

In studying the 80 series firing pin block mechanism I think I will put the Lyman to the test with the parts in vs. out. I've already tested the trigger with the parts out and the pull was over 1 lb less than a recent test with them in. Of course I just cleaned and re-lubed everything so it's not a fair test yet. If there is no discernible difference and the trigger feels the same, I will leave them in.

You shouldn't see any real difference in trigger pull either way. The little plunger spring isn't stiff enough to keep a ballpoint pen happy.

It seems the only area that could possibly cause any extra effort would be the actual compression of the block spring. Mine seems to have no wear or scratches on it and the pistol has been fired several thousand times.

I'd worry more about the plunger being undersized or rough, or just plain dirty. The latter's tough - pretty much a self-wiping setup. An undersized plunger could cant a bit and rub on the slide or firing pin. A rough one, well....

I still haven't found the detailed information at this site I would like on stoning the hammer/sear for the release I want. I've read nearly all of the information at the home page. I see Brownells sells a number of contraptions for sear work. I want to understand it first, with nice drawings and photos if possible. Somewhere in here this has been discussed and photoed in detail I expect. I've sort of taken my 1911's for granted in that I've never had any problems but now want to get a little more involved with them.

John pointed to an article on trigger jobs that may be of use. I've avoided trying that with mine. The whole trigger/sear/hammer design is about as simple as such a thing could be. If you put it back together right.... I've had my little Kimber (pre-Series II) and the Commander down to bare metal, just for fun. Nothing much too it. There's a set of pictures on here someplace that show how the thumb and grip safeties work, too.

Trying to think a little more along the series 80 designer's mindset I thought about the following. The non-captive catch is ok on this pistol as the firing pin block will stop movement of the firing pin even if the hammer slips off of it.

Not quite.... The firing pin block may be disengaged by the trigger action. I don't think it's supposed to, though. The levers shouldn't make it far enough into the slide to move it. But you got the right idea. It just doesn't have to be "as safe" as the original, and moving it helps keep the drop safety's levers out of the "fire" position.

With all safeties deactivated I suppose it would be logical that pulling the trigger would release it. Apparently the hammer fall is so slight it won't move the firing pin with adequate force to discharge a round. So why have this notch at all?

Tradition? The idea of not having the hammer resting on the firing pin, even if blocked, possibly not having the hammer knocking against the firing pin in day to day movement/usage that might contribute to wear between the firing pin and the block. Was there ever an explanation put forth by Colt?

I never heard an explanation. Tuner ought to know.... The preferred "carry" modes generally either put the hammer fully rearward ("Cocked & Locked") or hammer down on an empty chamber. Down on a loaded chamber is reasonably safe (much more so on the Series 80, IMHO), but I don't consider it a good idea. I think "Tradition" may be most of it. I don't think mechanical protection to the hammer or firing pin and block were involved.

My bet is that it was done to keep "in line" with Military requirements. They don't always reflect current technology or even current thinking. (Usually, when the Military goes to "current thinking", they mess it up. Like the .38 revolvers that didn't work in the Philippines....

The P-22 has a half cock position although there is an internal firing pin block inside the breech block, a manual safety that blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin and an internal cam inside the manual safety that engages a notch on the rear of the firing pin to further block any movement. Three items to prevent the firing pin from moving and still a half cock. Why? Looks? Tradition?

Tradition.... I guess a lot of people carry S&W/Walther style safeties (in the DA/SA or TDA guns) with the safety considered just a decocker. That's the way I do it.... (M39 and PPK/S. The P-22's not a carry gun, IMHO, but rather a "trainer" for the older polymer guns, as well as a nice plinker.) Since you can't carry it with the hammer back and the safety off, the half-cock may have some minimal utility. Flicking the safety on allows you to squeeze the trigger and drop the hammer, IF you put a magazine in the gun. All of that makes me wonder what they were thinking....

John's probably correct on the "hammer hooks" - ("hooks"?! Guess that's as good a name as anything) - again, I'd like to hear what Tuner has to say. He's the expert. (John's not exactly a newbie either!) I've had a 1911 for about eight years, but really didn't do much of anything with it until 2004. I inherited that gun - a 70's Combat Commander - and it had enough problems that I ended up learning a lot more than I wanted to. That actually turned into fun.

I've always been a "Mr. Fixit" (sometimes with interesting results :scared: ), so reasonable amateur gunsmithing only starts to become a challenge when reading Kuhnhausen. He like to refer to tools of his own design, or assume that I've got some really obscure goodies. Good reading, though. That's where I found the explanation for my Commander blowing two barrels.... (Somewhat over-the-top reloads and a defect in the frame.)

(It's growing a Kimber .22 conversion if the fool thing ever gets to my dealer. The frame can take the reduced loads. I still may put a new frame under the slide, but my gunsmith ducked under the counter when I suggested he help out....)

Regards,

[John]

Here is a post where Tuner explains the reasons behind the half-cock (or the quarter-cock) notch.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?p=224949

Last post in that page.

[1917-1911M]

Thanks John and Stu, Tuner, that makes perfect sense. I knew that, just never put 2 and 2 together. Yes the partial cock notch is huge compared to the full cock notch. I expect dragging the carefully polished sear off this shelf regularly could actually damage the sear.

One of the problems the P-22 has is that the hammer tip, old style and new, will hang in the little valley that is between the safety roll bar and breech block. I proposed re-profiling the hammer tip by flattening it when cocked so that the flattened tip is parallel with the bottom of the breech, then slightly round it front and rear for smooth sailing over the notch.

It works fine but done a little too aggressively ( or if there is slide wear allowing the hammer to lift the slide) the slide will no longer cock the reduced height hammer. The solution is simple, remove a little material from the hammers cock notch. Appropriate warnings issued regarding the importance of sear/hammer interface and to see a gunsmith if you don't understand it.

In any event what I had noticed, although I don't tell anyone, is that the half cock notch will catch a hammer that isn't fully cocked by the slide and follows it back forward, every time. So the purpose of the partial cock notch makes perfect sense. I've never seen a broken sear as Tuner uses for an illustration but there is no doubt that could happen especially in combat where you are not always sitting at a nice clean bench taking aim and instead could be banging you weapon off of who knows what.

It may take a while but we always seem to get to the bottom of these things on these Forums. Aren't they great, word-wide body of knowledge, and I enjoy fooling with mechanical stuff, always have. I'll re-read the poor man trigger section again. Have a great weekend everyone. :) M1911

[azreloader]

Hi all. I'm new to the 1911 Board (known better at the AK47 Boards over at Gunsnet), and fairly new at collecting 1911's.

I have a 1st gen Kimber Custom Classic (ser#002xxx), a WW2 GI Springfield, a Loaded Stainless Springfield, and my newest, a Colt Commander, which bring me to my inquiry....this is no ordinary Commander.

It's a NIB Series 80, Commander, Model 0 in matte blue, except both sides of the slide are polished to a mirror shine and there is Gold Filigree Embossing around the text and it has factory sim Ivory grip panels.

Short of requesting the Letter from COLT, does anyone have any idea what I am looking at? I can't find this combination of features in any publication.

The ser# is CP33xxx

Thanks for helping out a newbie and I look forward to becoming a regular hereabouts!

AZ

[lastchancebaby]

Hello,
I own a Colt Officers ACP .45. I bought the gun ~15 years age. The finish is parkarized. However, the internals have amazed some friends. The mainspring is actually 2 springs (narrow inside larger). Also the plunger is short ~1 inch. Would you worry aboiut short plunger-replace? Is it customized. Shots like it was Heaven made.

[SMMAssociates]

lastchancebaby:

Dunno if "Expert" fits, but....

I'm sure you mean "recoil spring", not "mainspring". The "mainspring" is in the (sorry) "mainspring housing", which is the rear portion of the grip frame.... :D

A double recoil spring is quite common now in shorter guns. I'm not sure about fifteen years ago, though. The short plunger is related to the length of the barrel - I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't know whether somebody put a custom spring setup into that gun or not - somebody here should know. 'Bout the only issue is when to replace the springs. Recoil spring replacement varies by barrel length and spring setup. My 4" Kimber wants 800 rounds, give or take. A buddy's 5" Springfield will shoot until the spring gets unreliable, and my Kimber (ain't good for it) can do the same....

In some cases the double spring setups are now packaged with a guide rod and plunger in one unit. Kinda expensive, but I'm guessing a reasonable tradeoff with respect to swapping a spring. The little Kimber requires a vise or special tool, and lots of prayer, but doesn't justify it. Some Paras do.... A buddy's got a double-spring setup in a 4" Llama Minimax .40. No problem to swap springs in there - it's a "standard" setup other than a very skinny guide rod, but he's having fun trying to find the springs....

If it shoots well, enjoy it :D ....

Regards,

[OD*]

Yours has 2 mainsprings?
Colt used two recoil springs on the OACP, but mine has only one mainspring.

[SMMAssociates]

Yours has 2 mainsprings?
Colt used two recoil springs on the OACP, bit mine has only one mainspring.
OD*:

Pretty sure we're talking about two recoil springs.... The OP seemed confused....

(Dunno what's in that Llama MSH - we couldn't get the little pin out....)

IAC, I nominate you to explain this mess :D ....

Regards,

[OD*]

You're probably right, Stu. ;)

[Autoloader]

Need some info. on a Colt Target Combat and a reasonable price for a NIB piece. Was told by dealer that it was discontined. Appears to be all stainless. Trigger pull was crisp and light. Slide action was very nice.

[joebob]

Is there any trick to removing the firing pin and extractor on the series 80 as opposed to the 70?

[Rio Vista Slim]

Is there any trick to removing the firing pin and extractor on the series 80 as opposed to the 70?
joebob,
It is quite simple.
On the underside of the slide, you'll find the firing pin safety plunger. Press this in, and using a punch, push the firing pin into it's channel. Release the firing pin safety plunger, and the firing pin is captured. Removed the firing pin stop, reapply the punch to the firing pin, and press in on the firing pin safety plunger again. The firing pin and its spring can then be removed from the slide.

Be careful to not lose the spring that is under the firing pin safety plunger.

Using a suitable punch, remove the extractor.

[texagun]

joebob,

Be careful to not lose the spring that is under the firing pin safety plunger.





Will the spring under the firing pin safety plunger fall out when you remove the firing pin?

[Rio Vista Slim]

Will the spring under the firing pin safety plunger fall out when you remove the firing pin?
The plunger and spring will both come out, especially if you turn the slide right-side-up. I always remove both whenever I clean my Series 80 pistols. After cleaning, both pieces fit back in with no difficulty.

[OD*]

The plunger and spring will both come out, especially if you turn the slide right-side-up. I always remove both whenever I clean my Series 80 pistols. After cleaning, both pieces fit back in with no difficulty.
Good advice Slim.


Series 80 system
http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/series80safety.jpg

[ybrik]

how could one know if the firing pin safety plunger and its spring is properly installed. Is there a notch on the firing pin that it would lock in place?

[Rio Vista Slim]

how could one know if the firing pin safety plunger and its spring is properly installed. Is there a notch on the firing pin that it would lock in place?
The firing pin DOES have a notch that prevents the forward movement of the firing pin unless the trigger is pressed. After re-installation of all the slide components, and reassembly of the pistol, the "famous" pencil test insures that all parts are functioning as intended.

A pencil is dropped into the muzzle (eraser end toward the breech) of an unloaded weapon. The hammer is cocked, and the trigger is squeezed. When the hammer drops, the pencil will fly out of the bore, if the weapon has been reassembled properly.

[ybrik]

well said Steve. Thanks!

[BIBITYbob]

"The Series 80 passive firing pin block only renders the gun more drop-safe. "

Would a brand new 1991A1 have this?

[Shorts]

"The Series 80 passive firing pin block only renders the gun more drop-safe. "

Would a brand new 1991A1 have this?


Yes. Remove the slide and take a look.

[edcm]

will u pls enlighten me on this. I saw colt mark 4 series 80 gold cup 45cal and colt officer mark 4 series 80 with out firing pin block and no plunger in the slide (w/c is the chracteristic of the series 80). What is this??tnx much