What could cause????

[CAG]

So I have a friend of mine that I built a pistol for had nearly 6000 rounds downrange with no issues. He recently did a two day shooting class which he fired around 1200 rounds. Prior to the class he cleaned gun, cleaned and stretched magazines. He is a very good shooter and knows how to handle a 1911. He experienced several FTF, and stove pipe live round. He brought the gun by and I went back over it and noted nothing seemed wrong. I went to the range and fired over 100 rounds weak and, strong hand, both hands lose grips tight grips anything I could do to make it have a failure. Any thoughts as to what may have happened?

[Bridgeport Guy]

Two thoughts come to mind...

1. Ammo....If he had no previous issues in 6000 rounds...one guess (if it's an ammo problem) was that he had been using "decent" ammo up until the 2 day class. Maybe he decided load up on cheap ammo for the two day session. Shooting 1200 rounds of decent ammo these days is getting to be very, very expensive.

When you fired your 100 rounds after he got back, did you fire the same ammo he was using during his class?

2. Class Stress / Fatigue....This is a long shot, but a possibility.
You mentioned that he only had a couple of FTF's and a stovepipe. At what point during the two days did that stuff happen? Depending on when those failures occurred and what kind of drills he was going through, you can draw some conclusions.

It could be that at times during the two days, he was stressed and tired, causing him to lose his normal focus on grip, for example. Hard to say.

I know that during some classes I attended, I had gotten tired and during a couple of drills found that I wasn't slamming the mag home hard enough. Kind of embarrassing, to say the least.

One other thing....did he clean the gun after Day 1? If the problems occurred late in the two days without cleaning, maybe some built up gunk caused his problem.

Anyway, those are some things that might have caused the failures. :)

[pa_guns]

Hi

I sure would put ammo high on the list. That goes double if the course used something odd to be compatible with a short indoor range. When you are 10 feet from the backstop you really can't use normal loads and bullets.

Dirt / lube would be the next guess. If they were running around in the dust and crud that requires a lightly lubed pistol. Most of us "range shooters" put way to much lube on a pistol for it to work reliably in a dusty environment.

What to do? The usual - swap out the recoil spring and mainspring. After 6,000 rounds they are ready for a change :D I'd do the mag springs as well. Next stop would be to try to duplicate the conditions of the class as closely as you can and see what really is going on.

Bob

[CAG]

Thank you for the reply's so far. After speaking with my buddy on this some more I got a little bit more detail. First day 600 rounds and roughly 12 FTF. The FTF he described was that it was if it was pushed straight into the feed ramp and then locked up. Nothing a Tap, Rack didn't fix. He said it would be so sporadic he could go 200 rounds then have one another 300 and have three in a row. Any other thoughts? He is doing another class today so it will be interesting to see how it runs today.

[John]

Stretched mags? Is that some new maintenance procedure?

[CAG]

LOL, that is what a new baby does to ya. Stretched his magazine springs. :D

[niemi24s]

The FTF he described was that it was if it was pushed straight into the feed ramp and then locked up.
If he meant the nose of the bullet hit the frame feed ramp and stopped there without glancing upward into the chamber, the cartidge being fed is nosediving when being stripped from the magazine. It hits the feed ramp too low to have a good chance of glancing upward.

Nosediving's caused by weak magazine springs and/or magazine feed lips which are rough. The effect of stretching the magazine springs will last only a very short time.

Tell your friend to invest in some decent magazines.

[ambidextrous1]

I imagine that the magazine bodies are okay; but the mag springs have sent more that 6000 rounds down range. It's time to swap them out.

He must have had a reason for stretching the mag springs: Was he (at some level) vaguely aware that the springs were weakening?

[toolman]

and stove pipe live round.

If the stove pipe live round occured on the last round or the next to last round, that's a pretty good sign of a weak mag spring. Mine did that awhile back with my oldest most reliable mag and a new Wolff extra power mag spring solved the problem.

[Canuck-IL]

Strange economic decisions - pay for a 2 day, 1200 round class and use stretched mag springs.
/Bryan

[CAG]

Class was paid for by the company. He and myself leave mags loaded all the time. So part of our maintenance is to break down the mag clean it and stretch the spring a little. I personal have never had any issues doing this other than if you stretch to much the first round of a fully load mag usually does not want to load. Unfortunately this class was a SDH class and stress level is high. It is very possible that it was one mag that was the problem.

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you buy them in "bulk" (10 packs) mag springs aren't all that expensive. Swapping them out once a year is probably a good idea.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Stretching magazine springs is a one or two cycles fix...IF you fire the gun quickly... and the spring collapses quickly...and it's weaker then it was before the stretch. Stretching a spring takes it past its elastic limit, and pretty much destroys the spring.

Leaving a magazine loaded for long periods doesn't cause good springs to weaken. Repeated compression and release cycles is what does that.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I wonder if you can "restore" mag springs by heat treating?

Bob

[1911Tuner]

I wonder if you can "restore" mag springs by heat treating?

I doubt it. Even if you could, you'd have to know exactly what alloy you're working with, and you'd need not only the equipment to do it...but you'd have to know and follow the exact process to harden and draw the steel to the correct temper. So, it wouldn't be worth the effort. With my still active after all these years smif's discount from Brownells, I can get Wolff mag springs for about $3.75 a copy.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I guess my assumption is that if you had enough of the same springs, you could play with it until you got it right. Might take a while :D

My pet theory about the bad springs we see is that the alloy is off a bit for the heat treat they used. I agree 100% about needing to hit the correct process.

Bob

[ranburr]

As others have said, don't stretch springs. It is at best a temporary fix. New springs are cheap. If he had that many malfunctions and it is possible that one mag was to blame, he doesn't have enough mags. You should take 15-25 mags to any class.

ranburr

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you shoot 2,000 rounds in a year, you will spend $200 on cheap relaods. You will spend a lot more than that on factory ammo. Replacing a mag spring or five will be less than 10% of your ammo costs.

Bob

[sevenL4]

I use magazines that are 20+ years old. A couple of them are GI mags with Devel followers. When I clean them, I clean one at a time so as not to mix parts. I have not changed springs since the original tuneup for each magazine. I don't know how many rounds have been thru the mags. How many rounds in a 5 gal. bucket? I've shot a couple of buckets full every year for years. Who decided recoil springs only last 6000 rounds? Doesn't it depend on the spring rate and the power of the load? I change recoil springs when the spring gauge tells me to. Any other method is inaccurate, to say the least. Mainsprings never die, IMO. But if they do, at what resistance are they pronounced dead? Tune your mags and check your ammo.

[1911Tuner]

Mainsprings never die, IMO. But if they do, at what resistance are they pronounced dead?

All springs die if they're used. The mainspring is an important part of the slide's recoil cycle. A good rule of thumb is to change it every 10,000 rounds. I change mine more often.

[ranburr]

How many rounds in a 5 gal. bucket?


In .45, roughly 5,000 rounds.

ranburr

[ambidextrous1]

Who said magazine springs last only 6000 rounds?

That depends: Whose springs?

Some will last 6000 rounds, some will last a lot longer, and some will fail to perform much earlier - perhaps when new.

We don't know what brand magazines were used here - or maybe I missed that information.

The failures described suggest weak magazine springs; whether 600, 6000, or 600,000 rounds have been fired with those 'presumed good' magazines. a new set of springs seems both reasonable and inexpensive.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I believe that spring wire was more tightly specified "back in the good old days" than it is today. Modern springs seem to fail far more often than the old ones ever did.

Bob

[Jim D]

Stretching magazine springs is foolish....it tells us that you already know that the spring isn't up to par...yet you're going to roll the dice and use them anyway.

http://www.vickerstactical.com/Tips/magazines.htm
*Replace as needed*

I've put a good 5k rounds through 3 Glock mags in the past 8 months. When they weren't being shot on the range, they were left loaded with carry ammo. I've yet to experience a failure. The second I do...I'll buy a new mag, and toss the old one in the parts bin....if a new spring/ follower brings it back to live, so be it...if not, I'm not gonna worry about it.