Mini welding torch for steel search...

[David Rose]

Current welding apparatus(i?) in the shop is: tig without HF converter, arc, oxy acetylene in a professional size and quality, and a junky little jewelers torch that is also oxy acetylene.

For adding bits of metal here and there and repairing small parts, I end up using the jeweler's torch more often than not. On small parts 1/8" or thinner, the control is great. The flexible hoses are nice as is the finger tip sized torch body.

But the regulators are scary. You start opening them and they may run into the red before you can shut them down! And they are all plastic on the adjusting knobs with damaged threads. I want to get rid of this and get something of a reasonable quality. And I don't trust much about the torch itself.

Is it feasible to hook up a tiny torch to the large torch reglators and use the larger tanks? Or are they sensitive enough to the finer adjustments required? Can this be done with "Y" connectors? I don't have to meet anyone's specs with this, but I do want to be as safe as feasible.

Also, will anyone recommend a quality torch and hoses? I've not seen anything in our area in this small size. And I've not seen much info online that helps. The jewelers that I've asked have something similar to mine. Ugh!

Thanks!

David

[Hill]

I have a small setup by Smith for little bitty O/A like so:http://www.weldsafe.com/Items/SMT23-1001D?&caSKU=SMT23-1001D&caTitle=Smith%20Little%20Torch%20Set%20w/Torch%2c%20Tips%2c%20Hose%3b%20P/N%3a%20SMT23-1001D

It works good with the Victor regulators that came on the tote kit, the kind with a plastic carrier and small bottles. I had to buy a couple of down converters to attach the small Smith hoses to the bigger Victor stuff. The local welding supply had them in stock. The Smith kit came with five tips three of which are too small for my setup. I can't get the regulators to flow so little gas. I passed on buying the small Smith regulators at the time, probably five years ago, because they were plasticy and seemed junky. I think that they've made improvements in them since then.

Can you control your Tig from 5 amps up? A foot control and a welder with a low minimum current will do most any small job, maybe short of jewelry work.

[David Rose]

Thanks Hill,

I've seen the Little Torch listed, but had missed this much of a description. It sounds good.

Did you "Y" in the large and small torch together? I've left my regs on the bottles for about 30 years, so I don't know how it was originally contained. But the setup was not a small one by any means, so I suspect that I need finer adjustments. It would be nice to have one set of bottles... other than propane and the acety air torch etc.

I'd have to look at my tig setup. It is a basic unit with no foot control (which could be purchased) nor high frequency converter. I do believe it goes down to 5 amp settings. I had the feeling that someone with more experience might chime in on the tig. I know these are suppose to be really versatile. To be honest, I've never become proficient with it, though I've reground quite a few electrodes. :) But when I've got really small parts all in clamps, it can be tough getting the tip in there. I've not played with extending the electrode beyond recommended settings. That would make things more managable, but I figured that beyond recommendations would likely lose the protection of the gas. I'm wide open to suggestions on this, as mine is way underused. Oh, and remember my tired old eyes on getting the tip close to the work.

David

I have a small setup by Smith for little bitty O/A like so:http://www.weldsafe.com/Items/SMT23-1001D?&caSKU=SMT23-1001D&caTitle=Smith%20Little%20Torch%20Set%20w/Torch%2c%20Tips%2c%20Hose%3b%20P/N%3a%20SMT23-1001D

It works good with the Victor regulators that came on the tote kit, the kind with a plastic carrier and small bottles. I had to buy a couple of down converters to attach the small Smith hoses to the bigger Victor stuff. The local welding supply had them in stock. The Smith kit came with five tips three of which are too small for my setup. I can't get the regulators to flow so little gas. I passed on buying the small Smith regulators at the time, probably five years ago, because they were plasticy and seemed junky. I think that they've made improvements in them since then.

Can you control your Tig from 5 amps up? A foot control and a welder with a low minimum current will do most any small job, maybe short of jewelry work.

[flyfish]

Miller and Lincoln both make very good low amp tig setups but be prepared to shell out some money. The small Smith torch is the best and there should be no reason that the large regulators will not work. When you say that the regs go into the red are you referring to the acetylene only? Above 15psi acetylene is unstable hence the red line. Shouldn't need to run above 7psi or so for most jobs.

[David Rose]

Hey Flyfish (my bag also),

I think my old electric unit is a Miller. It's a relatively inexpensive (I don't honestly remember what I paid for it) blue AC/DC with the top crank. It's a little cracker box from 25 years ago. I don't have HF, foot control or water cooling for it.

I don't remember which regulator gauge went into the red. It has done that about threee times and it startled me while I tried to shut it down/off. Also the adjusting knob is made of plastic with nearly stripped threads. So it all made me nervous. I don't like anything going "into the red". It could have been only the acetylene. I just get a bit antsy when that happens. I think it runs well at around 5# or a bit less.

David

Miller and Lincoln both make very good low amp tig setups but be prepared to shell out some money. The small Smith torch is the best and there should be no reason that the large regulators will not work. When you say that the regs go into the red are you referring to the acetylene only? Above 15psi acetylene is unstable hence the red line. Shouldn't need to run above 7psi or so for most jobs.

[Hill]

I use the small bottles that came with the tote set for the little Smith and have a separate full sized setup for bigger stuff. On that though, have you tried a 000 sized tip on your existing torch set? I used to use one for welding up barrel hoods and lugs many years ago.

I guess a tee-in could be figured out - I can't think of a reason it couldn't. You'd probably want a set of anti-flash valves in each set but unless your setup is VERY old you like;y already have valves in line. They're just one way check valves, welding specific.

I'd probably want to take my existing regulators along to a welding supply outlet as well as the brand new Little Torch, or whichever type you decide to use. That way he can figure it out for you and sell you exactly what's needed or tell you why not.

There are specialized tig guns and techniques to solve most any problem. Again, the welding shop people will help a lot as equipment issues are their bread and butter. You're right about overreaching the gas but there are several types of guns made to solve specialized needs.

[David Rose]

When I bought my gas setup, around 1973, I got the tips that were available downward. I'd have to check, but I think the smallest is a "00" or "0", can't remember offhand. But the handle/torch is about 7" long and the tips are longer, so it is awkward to do fine work. Remember also that I have no training in welding, so technique could be part of the problem.

I don't know if it has anti-flash valves. I just bought what they sold me. I think the regs are Victors. They were the best quality units that a local welding supply had back then. Are the valves an obvious separate part?

The last time I went to our local welding supplier, AirGas, they didn't seem to know much more than I did about my specific question. I think I was looking for a heat treatable rod. At any rate, they did not inspire confidence in my search, so... I do rent my bottles from them, so there is a connection. It has been a few years since I went in personally, so they may have more knowledgable people. I think that is where I got the larger torch and cracker box also.

Our area is not heavily industrialized and I think that AirGas is still our only supplier of welding supplies. My last yellow pages here in the house is sort of old, so I don't know if competition has grown.

Thanks,

David



I use the small bottles that came with the tote set for the little Smith and have a separate full sized setup for bigger stuff. On that though, have you tried a 000 sized tip on your existing torch set? I used to use one for welding up barrel hoods and lugs many years ago.

I guess a tee-in could be figured out - I can't think of a reason it couldn't. You'd probably want a set of anti-flash valves in each set but unless your setup is VERY old you like;y already have valves in line. They're just one way check valves, welding specific.

I'd probably want to take my existing regulators along to a welding supply outlet as well as the brand new Little Torch, or whichever type you decide to use. That way he can figure it out for you and sell you exactly what's needed or tell you why not.

There are specialized tig guns and techniques to solve most any problem. Again, the welding shop people will help a lot as equipment issues are their bread and butter. You're right about overreaching the gas but there are several types of guns made to solve specialized needs.

[Hill]

Although the world of welding with gasses can be confusing there is a progressive logic to the nomenclature. That's why I suggested taking relevant bits of your equipment with you, so that the vendor could identify what you're starting with.

If, for example, you have one of the larger Victor torch series it may be that no 000 tip exists that will attach or work. Victor makes, I think, five separate torch size ranges (with welding capability of up to 12" steel, can you imagine the heat and flame needed to weld steel that thick?) and it sounds like yours is in the higher/larger arena. The 000 tip (which is just 4" overall with a welding orifice of .027") is available only for their MT200 series if I have it right and that is a size that is generally sold to small shops, home users, and the like. Not the type usually seen at equipment auctions or sales because the capabilities are too small for most industrial uses. I think I might still have that tip but I graduated myself out of the torch size where I could use it. The tips are not cross range interchangable.

Yeah, some welding outlets are snobbish to those they perceive as hobbyists. They don't even think about using O/A for welding anymore since the majority is done electrically and is the source of most if not all of their income. They'll accept that you might braze or cut, but WELD?? The world of welding has become much more precise than it was and welding with the usually sold single stage regulators doesn't give near the precise control of welding heat that professional level tig welding does.

As to a hardenable welding rod? I think I'd have given you a puzzled look if you asked me that one. :) Most, if not all, welding rods produce a weld that is quite a bit harder than the parent or welded metal. It's sorta' the nature of the process and it's not unusual to have weld material of 60-65 r holding together pieces of no harder than 20 or 25 rockwell hard.

[Hill]

David,

I've just found an old Victor catalog. It may not be old enough but if you can get the numbers from your torch handle (usually stamped around the handle just above the gas knobs) I might be able to identify it so that you can figure out if it's even possible to use the torch for the tiny applications you've described. Numbers from the regulators might help too.

[David Rose]

Hill,

I appreciate all your help on this. I will try to get the numbers off the torch and regs later today.

For the weld to come out 60 to 65 r indicates high carbon, doesn't it? So that should be heat treatable? It would be ideal if most weld filler material was the same as the parent metal (without losing the properties, which is probably the fly in the ointment), but that is usually not practical on small parts of unknown origin. So... we hope that the filler will be effected by heat treating similarly to the parent metal. Awfully unscientific by today's standards.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with shotguns, but the part that started this "torch quest" was an ejector sear in an over and under shotgun. It is under both considerable stress and impact. I built up a worn edge, neglecting heat treatment, and it failed (broke) on the first cycling. I got it way too brittle. Then I noticed the hardness test spot. Duh! So when I reattach these two pieces, I need to be able to reheattreat it. I don't have a hardness tester, so I'll be shooting a bit in the dark anyway testing with files and may simply (not too "simply" :( ) have to cut out another part from a steel that I know. If I can get the hardness close to original, it will just be much simpler to repair than remanufacture. The shotgun is a Stoeger import with no parts available that we or Benelli can find.

Tig may be the better way to go on such. The working space is just tiny and has to have a couple of small clamps for positioning. I need to lay in material on a part that is about 0.100" thick and for a length of about 3/16" on either side of a small hole. I'll have to redrill the hole, but you see what I'm dealing with. And this isn't uncommon with what I encounter.

David

[Iron bottom]

Don't let that acetylene get above 15 psi. Above 15 psi acetylene is unstable like nitro glycerine. Get you some check valves and flame arresters if you don't have them. Under certain conditions the higher pressure oxygen can be pushed into the acetylene tank and when the torch is lit, you go through the roof.

Have you thought about looking into flow meters? They might work for a small amount of flow. I've used them for nitrogen purging and tig welding, but don't know if flow meters are made for fuel gases.

[Hill]

The brittle broken piece was too hard and needed to be annealed.

A real master (not me though I've pulled it off a couple of times) at heat treating metals could achieve good surface hardness with underlying elasticity to prevent that overall brittleness that broke your piece. It's to do with the quenching, reheating, and requenching differently and there's tons of info that is instructive on the net. Try "annealing", heat treatment", and like that to see what comes up. Wikipedia probably has a lot of information about it all too.

One thing is sure: reworking small parts is more difficult than working bigger ones. Sometimes the only solution is replacement. On that, have you tried this place for your part: http://www.e-gunparts.com/

[flyfish]

I used to be a sales manager at a local welding supply shop so if you can get some info off your equipment I might be able to help. Sounds like your electric welder is a 225 amp Thunderbolt Miller. They are really not good for TIG welding. You might be able to buy a Syncrowave 250 used and have something you can use. Lower amp setting can be done with an aircooled torch which is much cheaper than a water cooled. The tungsten electrode can be puchased in different sizes and types (2% Thoriated for steel for instance). You will also need argon for shielding gas. Flash arrestors can be bought and attached to either the torch or regs or both. They are not required but are definitely safer. I almost forgot the Syncrowave will require 208V single phase power if that's not an option 120v inverter units are available but cost a good amount. Hope this helps.

[David Rose]

IB, I've always seen redlines as REDLINES. Whether reloading, running and engine or about anything I consider them the limit. Some folks consider them as temptation points, but not me. Thanks for the warning.

David

[David Rose]

Hill, you are correct. Well actually it needed annealing first then reheat treatment. Annealed state would be way too soft for this purpose. I was just making a confession about "neglecting" that. The whole point was about the heat treatable filler rod. It needs to be treatable with the parent metal. I'm no expert in heat treatment, but I've done a ton of it with success and a failure here and there.

David

The brittle broken piece was too hard and needed to be annealed.

A real master (not me though I've pulled it off a couple of times) at heat treating metals could achieve good surface hardness with underlying elasticity to prevent that overall brittleness that broke your piece. It's to do with the quenching, reheating, and requenching differently and there's tons of info that is instructive on the net. Try "annealing", heat treatment", and like that to see what comes up. Wikipedia probably has a lot of information about it all too.

One thing is sure: reworking small parts is more difficult than working bigger ones. Sometimes the only solution is replacement. On that, have you tried this place for your part: http://www.e-gunparts.com/

[David Rose]

I got some info off my equipment.

The Victor torch is a model 100FC. My smallest tip is 00. It is just really awkward in tight spots. The O2 reg is a model CSR 250C with 2# increments on the line gauge. The acet reg is a model CSR 260A with 1# increments on the line gauge.

The Miller is the Thunderbolt AC/DC 150/230 amp. Drat it, Flyfisher. You tell me now. :o The lowest DC setting is 20 amp. I have three sizes of 2% thoriated rods with collets and ceramic gas nozzles (incorrect term) and the shield gas is argon with the air cooled torch that I have. I've welded with it some, but not really anything that had any consequence.

I did find something in the junk that is of possible interest if this Miller will work at all. A few years ago an old machinist friend had health problems and had to give up his shop. I bought a bunch of his small tools and general junk. In it was a Miller foot control. I had no instructions and had no idea what it is for, so it sat in the junk box. The model of the foot control is RFC-23A. The "23-A" part put me off from trying it. I think the welder is a 43 amp, but I didn't write that down and can't remember. Is there a possibility this might work??? :rolleyes: I'll get online and see if I can find anything on it.

Thanks much.

David

[log man]

David, Flyfish makes a good point. Tig really is the best way to go, although I would always have a good torch on hand for heating and soldering. Saving money by buying an inexpensive tig machine is not the way to go as they will not hold low amperage. A good machine will hold 5 amps or less, I often find myself setting my machine at 15 or 20 amps,thats max as with foot control will give you max to the setting but drop down as you ease off. The little inverters are really cool 120v for up to 95 amp then plug into 240v for 180 amps of welding power. Down side is you'll have 2K in the set up,but hey thats just two guns. :D

[flyfish]

I think the regs and torch are Fine to use. The flexability of the torch hose can be an issue and overcome with a smaller "whip" extension 3/16" instead of 1/4". The RFC or remote foot control looks like a gas pedal and controls output but only works with welders that have the DIN style plug connection. Look at renting a welder to try out some possibilities. Most good welding houses have machines setup for demonstrations too. Good luck.

[flyfish]

I forgot to address the regulator settings. Back out the adjusting handles before opening the cylinders and then adjust to the proper settings. Single stage regs increase delivery pressure as cylinder pressure drops.

[David Rose]

You guys are making me think of the old tool buying statement: Buy quality once and cry once, buy less and cry twice. <sigh>

So is there any point in playing with the existing Miller? Flyfish sounds like a footcontrol would let me use the lower amperage that is needed. I don't mind cutting connectors and such, if there is hope in that. The budget is relatively tight right now. But I won't use the minitorch any longer with its hazzard.

So, from what you guys are saying, I need to either fork over big bucks for a proper tig, get an extension and tip to use my existing torch with more flexibility or go for a whole smaller gas torch with regs.? Or can I "Y/T" off the current regulators for a smaller torch?

I plan to get my welding supply involved, but don't know what they have or can get and it will take a couple of weeks for me to get there.

David

[flyfish]

Your most economical way to go would probably use your oxy/act equipment. They sell reducing couplings and "Y" connections to get the large regs to connect to the smaller torch. Consider silver solder as it is very strong (50k tensile) but requires 1100F to hit its liquidus state. ESAB or Allstate 430 is strong and melts around 600F. I would definitely practice a bit before working on a firearm part as the consequences of failure are high.

[David Rose]

There is way too much stress on this part for silver solder on an edge joint to hold it. It was a fairly poor design, with severe machanical disadvantage.

I think I'll see what I can find out about fittings and a small torch from Airgas before I do anything else. This much can be budgeted if they carry anything.
And I may start looking for that used tig for the future.

Thanks again for all the help and ideas.

David

[David Rose]

The Victor 100FC is medium duty, and there is suppose to be a "000" tip for it. I think I'll see if my supplier has the flexible extension and the tip and give what I've got another shot. It will be an inexpensive attempt anyway.

And yes, I did try GPC, Bob's, Jack First and a couple of other obsolete part suppliers. And we are still trying to recontact Benelli after sending them photos of what is needed. There is a same exact model that they carry(ied?) that is a totally different internal configuration. They faxed me parts lists and diagrams for that one. Oh well...

David

[Hill]

David,
Your 100FC will have built in flashback arrestors and reverse flow check valves. The smallest tip is a Model W-1, size 000, Victor pn 0324-0068