First Time 1911 Build; Need Advice on Kits

[AK Gator]

I've spent the last 8 months or so honing my garage gunsmithing skills on Kalashnikovs and I'd really like to try a 1911. On the AK's, I always went with a 100% receiver from a reputable manufacturer rather than build my own from a flat or 80% version. I'm kind of inclined to go the same direction on the 1911 rather than build from complete scratch with piece meal parts.

Can anyone tell me where the best places are to buy a complete (with frame) match grade kit? What is the typical price range? I saw what looked like a nice kit from Fusion Firearms. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Welcome !!!!

Fusion is not a bad place to start, it's certainly one I would like to try. I agree with avoiding the 80% stuff.

With 1911's there are a *lot* of parts sources out there. Simple way to do it without a kit:

1) Get a frame and slide from the same outfit. Caspian is a very popular source. Getting them from the same source improves your chance of things fitting easily.

2) Pick a barrel source. It's a you get what you pay for kind of thing. Let them know what you are doing and they can recommend an appropriate version for your project.

3) Get a hammer and sear from the same guy. They will be closer to each other if you do.

The rest of the parts are fairly small stuff. That's not to say it's unimportant. Sights, triggers, and grips are very much personal preference stuff. Matching the sight mount type up with your slide is the only tough part.

I just sent you off into a *much* more complex deal than a simple kit.

Remember that there are a number of specialized tools for working on a 1911. Keep enough money in the cookie jar after you buy the parts to send a few orders off to Brownells.

Bob

[AK Gator]

Thanks for the guidance, Bob. I'll continue to look around at various kit/parts suppliers and watch the boards. This looks like a great project and I'm excited about the multitude of options available.

[DanR]

SARCO sells a build kit that has everything, less the frame. They will also sell you a frame, but you will need a BATFE licence for it. While I did start with an 80% frame, the SARCO build kit worked with only minor fitting. Once you have the gun up and working, then will be the time for you to look at custom parts to put in you gun to make it uniquely yours. Also, with the "cheap" parts you can use them to learn on instead of trial and error on the more expensive parts. I love my personalized gun, because it is unique, and because I can truly say that I build it myself. I hope this info gives you a good place to start.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Another way to go about this is to find a gun show beater of a pistol and rebuild it. The last batch like that were from Argentina and they went for around $250 or so. Occasionally you can find police trade in's down around that price, but $400 is a lot more likely ...

Bob

[Hawkmoon]

Sarco's kit is anything BUT "match grade." The parts are all generic. They work, but they're not match grade.

There are VERY few sources for a complete kit of "match grade" parts. Fusion seems to have a following, but IMHO the company has not been in existence long enough to get my $$$. Caspian's parts could be considered "match grade," but I don't know if they offer a complete kit including all small parts. And I don't like their grip safety (aesthetically and ergonomically -- nothing wrong with the quality). Wilson Combat can supply you with all match grade parts, but I don't know if they actually have a "kit." Ditto Ed Brown and Nighthawk Custom.

[bmanoftheyear]

Buy a frame,and slide from foster ind.They are cheaper then caspian and the same quality.Go to midwayusa or brownells and get parts.You can also go to egw or caspian for parts.I wouldn't build a 1911 from junk parts to just switch them out later.
For the hard stuff have a smith do it(aka the barrel fitting)You should be able to do everything else.I wouldn't attempt to fit a barrel.I"d build it up send it to a smith to fit the barrel and bushing and get it finished at the same time unless you bought SS instead of CS which would make sense.

[pa_guns]

Hi

My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that you are interested in doing a fairly high end build. Considering the amount of time and the cost of tools, this is not a bad idea.

If that's correct, I would not go with anything less than Caspian as a source for a frame and slide. They have a *long* track record for making good parts. Other than the major semi-custom guys, there just isn't anybody else selling frames and slides who that's true of.

I happen to like Nighthawk and Wilson parts, but I can't say that I like *everything* either one makes. I do indeed like the parts I have bought from Fusion, but I have never seen one of their slides or frames. My ideal pistol would be a mix of stuff from a number of places.

If I want a stock set of stuff all from one place, it's going to be cheaper to buy a finished pistol from them rather than build one up. On a stock pistol I'm confident that I can find a dealer who will knock a good chunk off of the list price from just about any of the semi-custom builders.

If you are indeed going for a nice build, spend some time looking at various pistols and what goes into them. Decide what you do and don't like. Build up one that does what you want it to do. If you do it right, with a name brand slide and frame, it will have resale value. If you do it poorly, or do in on an "unknown" slide and frame it's not going to be worth a lot when you are done.

So many choices ....

Bob

[AK Gator]

Pretty sure I want to start with the foundation of a higher end ("match grade")frame and slide. I do like the idea of building a "one of a kind", so maybe I will work from there by assembling the various other parts from different sources. I plan on taking it slow and enjoying the learning process as I go. At the same time, I probably will keep my eye open for a "beater" that I can use to learn the mechanics of the weapon and experiment around with while I work on my custom gun. Any good deals ever pop up on gunbroker? Any recommendations on good books that cover building the 1911? I think I saw some online, but would like the opinion of the board.

As far as the stainless versus carbon decision, I like the flexibility carbon offers as far as finish goes for the frame and slide. Probably looking to go darker with more of a tactical look and have stainless for the barrel and some of the smaller exterior parts. At least that's the current thinking.....

[pa_guns]

Hi

I would watch for a Systema(sp?) Argentine Colt to show up for about $200 to 300 and grab it as a "trial" pistol. Another option would be to buy a $350 RIA and do work on it. Either way you have a working (more or less in the case of the Systema) pistol to look at and learn from.

Bob

[USMCJG]

AK Gator,
I'm in the same boat as you. I'm also considering building my first 1911. Just FYI, STI sells prefitted forged slide/frame combos. The are available in several configurations, but they're pretty expensive. They also sell individual frames and slides at prices similar to Caspian. I have no experience with their parts, but I do have an STI Lawman with forged frame and slide and am pleased with the quality. I'm considering using an STI frame/slide when I get around to building my 1911. Perhaps one of the resident experts can chime in on the STI parts?

Les Baer also sells frames and slides. They are quite expensive(more than many complete pistols), but I'm sure they're of the highest quality. Just throwing a couple more choices in there, along with Caspian, to muddy the waters if you're going to be building a high end 1911. I'm very interested in the advice you get from the people here who are in the know. Good luck with your project and keep us updated on your progress. :cool:

Cliff

[pa_guns]

Hi

You can easily spend *any* amount of money on a custom pistol. If you have $10,000 you can indeed spend that building up a 1911. I suspect that $20,000 would be a bit of a stretch, but I can see how it could be done.

Most people start with a budget and then take a look at what they can get for the money. That makes the process a *lot* easier. If you are looking at Sarco 80% frames on one hand and Les Baer hand built frames on the other, you aren't even close to closing in on a decision.

What kind of budget do you have for the project, $5,000, less , more? :D

No matter how much you spend, spending more will *always* get you a better pistol.

Bob

[DanR]

AK Gator and USMCJG, you should consider buying the "Building the Reliable Combat or Limited Class .45 Auto 1911" produced by AGI, the American Gunsmithing Institute. I also recommend their "Colt-1911 .45 Auto Armorer's Course". These are well produced videos that helped me when I was building my 80% frame gun. To be able to re-watch a section is a valuable asset. I enjoyed my build up and I know you will also. Happy building.

[af22raptor]

If you are looking for a 1911 kit you may want to check out Fusionfirearms.com they have several kits available like these:
Full Size 45 ACP Frame Kit with fitted slide with Novak sight cuts

+++INTRODUCTION PRICING++++

This is a Fusion Firearms FORGED carbon steel 1911 Full Size frame and 5 inch slide 1911 Kit. The frames are our Extremely High Quality Pro-Series combat 1911 frame with front-strap checkering(30LPI) and undercut trigger guard. The rear of the frame is already cut for a .25 radius to accept a high-ride beavertail grip safety. The magwell is also beveled. The slide is a standard 5 inch length Forged Carbon steel with front and rear cocking serrations, Lowered and relieved ejection port, serrated target top and Novak sight cuts. Both with all machining and heat treatments complete. Kit comes with fitted slide and frame. 416 match grade barrel in 45 acp with link and pin, Recoil spring kit, Barrel bushing and slide stop. All Ready to build a super fine custom 1911.

If you would like us to do other services such as finishing, black oxide, Parkerizing, adding the plunger tube or ejector, sights …etc . Email us for a quote rserva@stny.rr.com

These are Top Quality Professional Series Parts; Made from the best materials and processes available in today's market. FUSION is a company formed by past Dan Wesson Firearms President, Bob Serva. Bob Has been working in the industry and with the 1911 for over 20 years and understands the quality of parts needed to build a great 1911 pistol. He has created Fusion to offer the gunsmith "Professional grade parts". These parts are the same parts the Pro's use to build their products.

FFL IS REQUIRED to ship to.....
++If you would like to order one of these frames, Please email us for payment arrangements. Regular retail price $795.00
Introductory Price: $595.00

or the Upgraded one:
1911 Colt Style, by FUSION 5 inch 45 ACP Tactical HUNTER-5 ELITE

The Fusion Firearms Hunter is a 5 inch 45 acp 1911 style pistol Kit. This is a good choice for those that want a Tactical 1911 Sport pistol with all of the modern and desirable options included. Chambered in the 45 ACP cartridge, the Hunter-5 is ready for action games, tactical defense and target shooting. The Hunter-5 tactical Elite, has a tactical frame accessory rail to aid in adding optics and scope mounting systems.

This Kit Comes complete with:

Fitted frame with .250 radius cut for high ride beavertail grip safety, Plunger tube and ejector already installed.
Undercut trigger guard
Checkered front-strap on Tactical model
Beveled mag well
Tactical accessory rail on Hunter Tactical Elite.
Ejector installed
Plunger tube installed
Fitted Slide with serrations, lowered and relieved ejection port, and sight cuts
Head-spaced barrel and slide
Fitted stainless steel match grade ramped barrel, link and pin
Fitted barrel bushing
Fitted Slide stop
Novak sight cuts
Recoil system, Guide rod, plug and spring
Fusion Tech support, and -
15% off all additional parts purchased from Fusion for your 1911 Easy Fit kit build.
15% off all finishing services such as bluing and Parkerizing
$795.00 (plus shipping)

Check it out hope it helps!

[pa_guns]

Hi

Before we get buried in ads - does anybody have a rough idea of how much they think they can spend on this adventure? :D

Bob

[af22raptor]

Bob,
Im going thru some issues with a 700 dollar SA Loaded that is going to end up costing me as much as another 300 dollars. I been doing my research and contacting people that know about the ins and outs of 1911s and they are telling me what to get for my perticular application. Right now the choices are between the Fusion Tac hunter elite and the Foster Industries inc Special with added customs features. I got burned with SA but I now know what to get and where to get it. Price looks to be in the 1000 to 1200 dollar price point for something that will go off everytime. That total includes Wilson Combat, Ed Brown and Nowlin parts, Novak Nite Sights and Wolffs' springs.

[pa_guns]

Hi

You probably should figure that tools will run you another $300 or so. $1500 gets you up into Les Baer and RRA territory.

Bob

[AK Gator]

I was hoping to keep costs to around $1K. I'd like to spend a good chunk of it on frame, slide, barrel. Building from a kit will let me spend this (and probably more) over a period of time. From the AK adventure, I've discovered that the cheaper route is to just go ahead and spend the $1,200 or so and get a finished gun, but where is the adventure in that?

you should consider buying the "Building the Reliable Combat or Limited Class .45 Auto 1911" produced by AGI,

I have used AGI (videos) for the AKs and they were very helpful. I will definitely check them out for the 1911 stuff.

I do have my eye on the Fusion kit. So far, the worst I've heard is that they havn't been around long enough. Not sure if that disqualifies them in my book. They certainly seem to have quality stuff and I like the 5" Hunter Elite for its tactical applications. Is the balance of this pistol significantly altered with tactical accessories mounted to the underside of the barrel? What is the purpose of an undercut trigger guard?

[af22raptor]

Gator,
You may want to take a look at Caspian/Foster Ind Inc. They offer Caspian Frames and Slides from Caspian that are OVerruns or didnt make it thru inspeciton for COSMETIC reasons. All there frames are fully warrantied for defects. I was introduced to them by a Navy buddy that has there Frame and Slide and commisioned a NRA Match pistol to be build for him. Most of the Frames and Slides are all ready been setup with the popular options and you should be able to find what you are looking for very easily.
www.fosterind.com
Check it out!

[af22raptor]

Bob,
Im not sure what part of the country you live in but as far as I know you cannot get into a Rock River or a Les Baer for less than 1800. The Caspian package that I was looking at was Frame/Slide fitting was 98% done, the frame was cut to except a Nowlin/Wilson or Clark/Para Ramped supported barrel, the firing pin was caspian but everything else is Wilson Combat and the sights are Original Tritium Novak Low Profile. The rest of the parts are WC. The 200 dollar difference is choosing between parkerizing or Roguarding the pistol.
Its hard to beat a 1000 dollars for this type of package. If you know of anyone that can beat it please let me know.
thank you

[pa_guns]

Hi

As you run through this keep in mind that often defective castings show up early as cosmetic issues and later as cracks. There often is very little way to tell a non-issue cosmetic from a "will be a problem" one.

If you set up properly to do the work on a 1911, you will put real money into custom tools. There is a lot of fitting done on 1911 parts. Unlike a "modern" design the parts do not simply fit together. People may get lucky, but they also have things blow up. Cutting corners is not a good idea with a firearm.

We have had a number of threads by people who have done AK's and are now looking at 1911's. They are not anywhere near the same thing. The AK was designed to have an enormous amount of "give" in it's design. It took them ten to fifteen years to get it to that point. The 1911 is *very* different, it is not at all forgiving in it's design.

I'm by no means suggesting you don't go down this road. I think it's a fun thing to do. I'm only trying to point out that this is a very different beast.

Bob

[USMCJG]

Thanks for the info DanR. I had seen those videos before and thought they might be a good idea. Good to know from someone who has actually watched them that they are worthwhile.

pa_guns, Regarding the budget for a build. I'm still early in the pricing/planning stage at the moment. Lately, I've been changing parts here and there on my Lawman and am becoming more confident that I may actually be able to successfully build a functional/reliable 1911. I'm still not sure which direction I'm going to go. It'll either be a tactical pistol with a rail(probably Caspian), or a target pistol(maybe STI). I've been pricing parts for a while, and it looks like I'll have to spend in the neighborhood of $1,500(including finishing) plus tools to get what I really want. Or, for ~$1,800 I could just buy a LB, Rock River, etc. and be done with it. But where's the fun in that? For me it's as much about the journey as the destination. I just hope when I get to the destination it's not a dump.

Sorry for hijacking your (excellent)thread AK.

Cliff

[pa_guns]

Hi

My location is right there under the rest of my details - Carlisle PA.

My Rock River cost me $1500 new. The Les Baer's at the last show were priced at $1400 (used), $1550 (new), and $1710 (new). All were from authorized dealers listed on the manufacturer's web site.

It's my understanding that you can knock a bit more off of those numbers if you shop the net.

Bob

[jwenum]

JG--I went thru the same thing as you are thinking about.Probably spent 2-300 more than just buying a 1911 outright.But,I had fun & it shoots good.Well,other than the hammer following the slide to battery because I must have filed the hammer hooks a little too far--honestly I did it the right way-just didn't work.Went with a matched set hammer&sear from Jim Clark & everything was fine.I am almost ready to do another one.Your way;if you're short on cash you just stop for awhile...Teenagers!!Love 'em;hate 'em.....I am still threatening to go see 'Tuner' and see what he thinks of mine..Semper Fi!

[pa_guns]

Hi

There's my problem right there.

Without the proper tools to set things up, you are rolling dice on safety. I'm glad that everybody was safe through the hammer follow.

There are a number of things that can be out of spec on a built up pistol. The right tools and gauges let you spot and correct them before there's a problem.

I am by no means trying to talk anybody out of building a pistol. Actually I think it's a great thing to do. Doing it on the cheap can be more of a gamble than I would suggest you take.

Bob

[af22raptor]

Bob,
I was under the impression when top parts are used like Wilson Combat, Ed Brown etc. and the Frame and Slide come from the same manufacturer like Caspian for example minimal fitting is required is that correct? I contacted Caspian concerning getting a fitted frame/slide combo and they told me they can send it to me at 98% fitted and the final fitting is a minor polishing to ease cycling. I asked about the Nowlin ramped barrel that I was looking and I was told that the frame will accepeted with minimal fitting. I have rebuild a few glocks and a couple of M9 Berettas and a few AR15 with different parts some factory some aftermarket.
here is my question: Are 1911s NOT standarized no matter the manufacturing?
The person I contacted at Caspian was a contact person for Military sales so I am not sure if that would make a difference.
If I have been missed informed about the standarization of 1911s then I will just redirect my build up money toward a HK45.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The 1911 platform, especially a custom build is *not* set up to drop in parts and have them fit. The idea is to have them not fit, and "tweak" them so they fit tightly. That's where the performance comes from.

On a 1911 trigger, the thing that makes them so much better than any other trigger out there is that they are custom fit. Very small differences in angles are what it's all about.

May things work right out of the box? - they might. On a high grade build I would be *very* disappointed if they did. Are things safe without a lot of checking and measuring? - maybe. I sure wouldn't trust my body parts to that assumption.

Bob

[af22raptor]

Bob,
Thank you very much about the explanation about the fitting aspect of a 1911. I guess I will have to make some sort of deal with one of the Pistol Team armorers to put everything together for me since they have the tools and experience putting together pistols of high quality, maybe have them call in a favor or two and have them send it out to Quantico and let the Custom Shop up there do the work.

Thank you for probably saving me lots of money and grief dont need to do that again already going thru some issues with my SA Loaded.

[pa_guns]

Hi

There is nothing on a 1911 that you can't do yourself if you have the tools and the time. You may do better on the second attempt. :D

If you are going to have help putting things together, talk to the guy ahead of time. He may have strong preferences in terms of what he likes and does not like to work with.

Bob

[af22raptor]

Bob,
I have talked to a couple of the armorers and they have told me to go Caspian all the way. Since I am looking for a Tactical Pistol its been suggested that I go with the Race Frame with the Tactical option. I am trying to be involved hands on the assembly of my pistol if at all possible so I learn how to do it myself. I have been looking in the Brownells Catalog at the tools kits that they offer for 1911s I am seriously considering getting one. I have gotten great experience working on my own firearms and gotten good enough to have friends bring me there firearms to get them fixed. I was able to build a Match grade 24 inch AR15 sniper system that hits quater coins from 315 yards out. That is my pride and joy.
Would you suggest getting a cheaper pistol like a RIA and rebuilding it with all the nice accessories as a first attept of building a pistol?

[pa_guns]

Hi

The second pistol you build will always be a better one than the first one. The same is true of the third versus the second. At some point you will start to get impatient / bored and the level of improvement will drop off.

Regardless of how many you have built up, it's always good to have a pro available for a consult.

Bob

[af22raptor]

AMEN! Bob. :)

[jwenum]

Concerning the hammer follow-thru...I listened to Kuhnhausen and tried it unloaded--Thank god..Raptor(here we go again)IF Quantico can do it, go for it!!!!!!!YOU'RE only in the Navy;Quantico is?well,years ahead of you!!Ok;time for pa-guns ,hawkmoon to chime in.I'm sorry,the 'Corps' just seems to get ingrained into the DNA..Jeff

[pa_guns]

Hi

Keep in mind that builds can take awhile and most gun smiths can drink a *lot* of beer.

Buying a Les Baer may be cheaper ...

I had a friend who shot 1911's competitively in the Navy. He told a wonderful story about the Marines "lending" the Navy a couple of 1911's at a match. They had modified grip safeties. If you didn't hold them just right, you got bit. Somehow they "neglected" to pass that tidbit of information on to the Navy shooters.

Bob