Cross Pin Question

[jn316]

Friend of mind just got a 1969 commerical Colt 1911 Gov. in like new condition, I'd say maybe a box of ammo has been fired though it and then put away for the last 39 years.At the range today with Slide locked back on the slide pin he slammed home a loaded mag when the slide dropped and chamber a cartridge.So I had him clear the weapon, didn't see anything wrong with it so he locked the slide back again this time without a mag and bump the gun on the range table with about the same force as before(with the mag in it) and the same thing happened.Heres the question:Can it be fix and or is this normal?
Thanks

[Joni Lynn]

It sounds like the slide stop maybe isn't moving far enough up into the locking notch.
A reason for the slide to drop when a mag is slammed in could also be the bullet nose contacting the slide stop. Since it did the same thing without a mag, I'd think it's the stop not going up far enough. If the gun had a lot of use I'd suggest that maybe the locking notch in the slide was worn or peened.
I'd suggest a disassembly, clean it up real good make certain no old dried oil remains, then lube it up well and try that again.

[jn316]

Thanks Joni
Ya I clean this gun with a fine tooth brush :)
No peening what so ever like I said this gun is petty much like new .
Thanks again :(

[Bud White]

Sure sounds like a bad Slide stop to me maybe the catch on the stop has worn down or sheared off

[Joni Lynn]

If you press up on the slide stop so that it has traveled up as far as possible and then repeat the action that caused it to malfunction does it still do it or does it begin to ehave itself.

[jn316]

Oh I forgot to mention when we got back the range I tried a S S out of a Kimber with less than a 1000 rds though it (which was replaces for no other reason than to have a E G W pin installed) Did I mention it did the same thing :o

[robot1911]

Quite often this situation calls for a small dimple being cut into the face of the slide stop lug where it contacts the plunger. Doesn't take much.

Bob

[Bud White]

Quite often this situation calls for a small dimple being cut into the face of the slide stop lug where it contacts the plunger. Doesn't take much.

Bob

For sure Much needed on a 10mm not as much on a 45 but would fix it

[niemi24s]

Could be that the SS plunger is not pushing on the aft end of the SS with enough force because of gummed-up oil. Remove both plungers and the spring and clean the tube, plungers and spring. Pipe cleaners work good on the plunger tube.

When it's all back together, make sure the SS plunger extends far enough forward to get compressed when the SS is installed.

[jn316]

Quite often this situation calls for a small dimple being cut into the face of the slide stop lug where it contacts the plunger. Doesn't take much.

Bob Was thinking of that but wasn't sure if it would be masking another issue.


Joni:If you press up on the slide stop so that it has traveled up as far as possible and then repeat the action that caused it to malfunction does it still do it or does it begin to ehave itself.
Yes Its All the way home and still misbehaves :nono:

[gfavaron]

If it was set actually aside for nearly 40 years, I would start by removing the plunger tube innards and cleaning everything thoroughly - especially the inside of the tube - before reshaping anything. Could be a cheap, harmless fix. Niemi said it first, but it bears repeating.

[jn316]

If it was set actually aside for nearly 40 years, I would start by removing the plunger tube innards and cleaning everything thoroughly - especially the inside of the tube - before reshaping anything. Could be a cheap, harmless fix. Niemi said it first, but it bears repeating.


Sounds like some great advise, I'll give it a try as soon as I get my hands back on it.
Thanks again

[toolman]

If a good cleaning of the plunger tube and its innards doesn't help could you post a few pictures, including close-ups of the slide stop and the notch in the slide?

[jn316]

If a good cleaning of the plunger tube and its innards doesn't help could you post a few pictures, including close-ups of the slide stop and the notch in the slide?

Great idea ToolMan
I'am working on getting the gun back,when I do we will get some fresh pics of it.
Thanks again ;)

[John]

Clarifications please:

Lock the slide back with the slide stop, and check to make sure the slide stop is all the way up. Slam an empty mag in it. Will the slide be released? If so there is something wrong with the slide stop or with the notch of the slide stop on the slide.

If the slide stop doesn't go all the way up in the slide stop notch, then you have to figure out what prevents it. Maybe the top of the slide stop reaches the cut on the frame and can't move all the way up. Maybe the notch is not aligning properly with the slide.

Come back to us.

Oh and the dimple is drilled on the slide stop face to stop it from moving up before the follower pushes it. It's not done to help the slide stop move up.

[Jolly Rogers]

Oh and the dimple is drilled on the slide stop face to stop it from moving up before the follower pushes it. It's not done to help the slide stop move up.

John excellent point and one that is not widely known I bet.

Thanks for adding this!
Joe

[John]

Most welcome Sir.

[niemi24s]

When you do get your hands on the gun, make sure the groove in the aft end of the slide stop cannot contact the bottom of the slide. The bottom of this groove should be well below the frame groove, as shown here:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p232/niemi24s/P083200004b.jpg
If for some reason it can contact the slide, the jarring from hard magazine insertion might cause the slide to hop up & down on the frame and maybe jar the SS downward.

Because the gun's done it with 2 different SS's, if this condition is present the arched cut in the frame may be too high. The top of the arch should not be into the bottom of the frame rail.

This is just my zebra for today - still think the SS plunger's gummed up! Cheers

[robot1911]

Niemi, I think your Zebra was trying to take a nap this time. I have to disagree with a little bit of this post...just a little because for the most part I agree.
For the past few years, I've found it necessary to raise that arch quite a bit so the slide stop lug can fit well into the slide notch and therefore have more contact surface to reduce battering of the notch.
BTW, considering that recent production Colt's have removed that arch entirely and left an open in the rails, I feel it really isn't that important. How's that grab ya??

Bob

[niemi24s]

. . . considering that recent production Colt's have removed that arch entirely and left an open in the rails, I feel it really isn't that important.

Thanx - wasn't aware of that fact.

Another way to get the SS to go up farther might be to dress down its upper rounded portion that bumps up against the arch in the frame.

Seems like either method would do the same thing, except leaving the frame rail alone might be better if the rails were later beaten down. Maybe less chance of cracking it in this weaker area of the magazine well. Maybe.

Regards

[robot1911]

Dressing down the top rounded portion doesn't work too well. If you go a bit too far, the slide stop can work itself out from being captive of the slide. That little takedown notch on the slide is quite small and it doesn't take much metal removal from the slide stop tab to negate it. I've seen it many times, done by kitchen table 'smiths, and I'm sure Johnny has as well. Actually, it's a very common mistake, and understandable.

Bob

[niemi24s]

Dressing down the top rounded portion doesn't work too well. If you go a bit too far, the slide stop can work itself out from being captive of the slide.

Oops! Thanks for the correction..<back to the kitchen table> :o Cheers.

[jn316]

Clarifications please:

Lock the slide back with the slide stop, and check to make sure the slide stop is all the way up. Slam an empty mag in it. Will the slide be released? If so there is something wrong with the slide stop or with the notch of the slide stop on the slide.

If the slide stop doesn't go all the way up in the slide stop notch, then you have to figure out what prevents it. Maybe the top of the slide stop reaches the cut on the frame and can't move all the way up. Maybe the notch is not aligning properly with the slide.

Come back to us.

Oh and the dimple is drilled on the slide stop face to stop it from moving up before the follower pushes it. It's not done to help the slide stop move up.


Thanks John for the great info. Talked to my friend today seems like its going to be a couple of days till I can get pics on board
Thanks Bob and Niemi
I'll do some figuring when I get it back
Sal

[pdoppenheim]

BTW, considering that recent production Colt's have removed that arch entirely and left an open in the rails, I feel it really isn't that important. How's that grab ya??
Bob

Apparently Bill Wilson doesn't think so either as he cuts the arch completely out of the frame also.

[niemi24s]

Apparently Bill Wilson doesn't think so either as he cuts the arch completely out of the frame also.
Does the Wilson cut extend up into the frame rail?

[jn316]

So does Kimber
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/jn316/P3190010.jpg

[niemi24s]

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! Thanx for the pic. Cheers

[pdoppenheim]

Does the Wilson cut extend up into the frame rail?
The Wilson cut extends straight up and eliminates the frame rail the same as in the picture of the Kimber in this thread.

[niemi24s]

IMHO, Wilson & Kimber have created a sort of "scupper" for the left side which may do a fairly good job of channeling lubricant away from the upper bearing surfaces of the slide & frame. It would have the added benefit of creating a path for the introduction of crud from firing into those bearing surfaces.

And I bet it saves almost US$2 in machining costs per frame.

Funny that JMB didn't think of that!

Yours truly, Niemi24s - the eternal pessimist. <grin>

[robot1911]

$in machining costs? Hmmm. I doubt the machine even knows there's been a change. I'd really like to know why they started this doggone cut anyhow. It just makes no sense to me.

Bob

[jn316]

For the past few years, I've found it necessary to raise that arch quite a bit so the slide stop lug can fit well into the slide notch and therefore have more contact surface to reduce battering of the notch.

Bob
Could the reason be as you mention in your post

[robot1911]

Could the reason be as you mention in your post


I don't think so. If the rest of the pistol is built to the proper specs, there's no reason for that cut. Unfortunately, such is rarely the case these days.

Bob

[niemi24s]

$in machining costs? Hmmm. I doubt the machine even knows there's been a change. I'd really like to know why they started this doggone cut anyhow. It just makes no sense to me.

Makes no sense to me either. I can't think of a single advantage for the gun in removing the entire section of frame rail. And if there was some advantage for the gun, why don't they whack a piece off the right hand side? I can, however, think of several disadvantages.

Thus my conclusion the advantage was a monetary one for the gun's manufacturer. I'm no machinist, but there may be some difference in how the two cuts are made - different machine, different bit, different setup, etc - maybe just a reduction in time.

And time = $ [bottom line, bottom line]

Sure would be a little apprehensive lowering the rails on one of these things.

Regards

[Sniper350]

Colt started "relieving" that section of the frame in response to frame cracks caused by the mighty 10 mm Delta Elite.

That is exactly where the frame would crack under the stress of the full power 10mm rounds. The "Cut-out" seemed to eliminate the cracked frames and reduced the number of returns to the factory. IMHO it never really solved the problem, only masked it. But since it was sucessful ........Colt started using this technique as SOP.

JF.

[niemi24s]

Colt started "relieving" that section of the frame in response to frame cracks caused by the mighty 10 mm Delta Elite.
Interesting. Ve-e-ery interesting! My "save two bucks a frame" theory just went down in flames.

And I suppose as long as the 10mm frames didn't crack somewhere else, the procedure could be considered successful.

Thanks for the history, JF. Cheers

[Sniper350]

Niemi24s ........ your welcome !

Well, the Delta Elite had many problems with cracks, that some will say was the reason for the production being halted ??

But I am only aware of the one frame weakness, which was solved by the cut-out.
It, of course, suffered multiple weak points when it came to its SLIDE. I think because Colt was not able to solve the Slide problems, it decided to let the production stop.
This is just a guess that you will hear repeated over and over ......hard to tell how much of it is real or not? If cracks [in the slide ] can be formed from shooting a 45 acp, you can imagine the frequency increasing with hand loaded 10mm to the MAX limits and beyond !

JF.

[Iron bottom]

I've always owned a Delta of some configuration since they were introduced. The biggest problem I saw was QC. They were also shipped with a plastic guide rod and double spring. Gossip says this was Colt's attempt to create a shock buffer. Most of these plastic guide rods were chewed up fairly quickly, and were replaced with steel guide rods and various springs which transferred the shock to the frame and slide. I would say that parts swapping had a lot to do with the demise of the Delta. That and the fact that many people found out that they only really wanted to fire the Delta once. :D To me, the blued Delta was the best looking firearm Colt ever made. I am glad to see the Delta back.

[jn316]

Finally, I got my hands back on that COLT. Here is that picture I had promised and I hope it tells a thousand stories.
Thanks again

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/jn316/Colt1911001.jpg


And that is pushed up as far as it will go

[John]

Since this is locked manually back, that is not telling us the whole story, but still it shows that there is not enough engagement, the slide stop doesn't go all the way up. And also, if my eyes are not tricking me, the notch is not cut properly at the rear end. Show us a picture of how the slide stop works when the gun is fired.

[jn316]

We fix it!!!!!Cleaned the Plunger tube as per suggestions then replaced the spring, and all is well. Thanks to all who posted .
Sal :appld: