Springfield Loaded MC Operator Malfunctions - Advice Appreciated

[sk8n3rd]

I have a Springfield Loaded MC Operator with about 1200 rounds through it. I am getting pretty consistent failures to return to battery (1 in 100 or 150). I'm wondering if I should send it back to Springfield or if it's something that I or a local gunsmith can easily correct.

From searching the forums I've found there are details that are always helpful in diagnosis. Here the particulars from the notes I started taking:

Ammo: Primarily Blazer Brass FMJ 230 Hardball, but some Winchester Whitebox 230 FMJ

Magazines: 7 Round Mec-Gar (not sure) style that came with the pistol. Less than 100 rounds each. (see picture below)

Position of Round to Extractor: Just above it. (see picture below)

Position of Round on Breechface: Mostly up against breechface. (see picture below)

Position of Round in Magazine: Frequently last round but not predictably. Very often on round 4, 5, 6, etc.

Cleanliness of Pistol: Starts happening sometime after 50 rounds or so. Before that, after a cleaning, no problem.

Lube: Happens when pistol is well-lubed with CLP (drops on slide rails, channels, etc) If I add Brian Enos Slide Glide, I can run 200+ rounds dirty and have no malfunctions. Can the Slide Glide mask problems? This pistol should run more than 50 rounds without fancy lube right?

Will the round chamber if pressure is applied to the slide: Yes, light pressure on the slide and the round chambers without issue.

Extractor tension: Live round is held in place but the nose droops slightly. Several bursts of vigorous shaking of the slide moves the round slightly but it does not fall out. (I shook it hard enough I was worried the primer might contact something with more force than I would want).

Dings or dents on case: Not sure but there are small brass shaving around the frame rails etc when disassembled.

Here are some pictures. The extractor is hard to see but the case is pretty much sitting on it:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3103/2331808593_9d761d3c1d.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2336/2332635098_8cd67294b9.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2089/2331808521_94145fc7b3.jpg

Any input is greatly appreciated. I'm not opposed to sending the pistol back to Springfield but if there's something that I can tweak on my own that would be even better.

[Hunter]

How does the breech face look especially around the firing pin hole? What weight recoil spring are you running?
When is the last time you cleaned the extractor tunnel?
I would clean the extractor tunnel and take a little extractor tension out (just a cat hair) and be sure the breech face has no burrs.

[usmc_dd214_1990]

Ditto on what hunter wrote. When you say it does not battery, is what you are describing that the slide goes almost back but the last 1/4" it just sits there and that you have to push it to battery back? Does this make sense? What I found out is that where the link is, in the lower receiver, is a channel, if that channel is filthy dirty it will drag on the link. If I remember correctly, I also asked about the magazines. Did you use any non factory magazines such as Wilson 47D?

Darren
Semper Fi

[tenx]

When it fails to go into battery, I am guessing that you need to pull the slide back just slightly and then release it. It then goes into battery. The brass shavings are another strong clue.

It is almost certain that there is too much extractor tension.

If less extractor tension cures the problem, great. If more help is needed, I would suggest Checkmate Industries magazines with hybrid feed lips. You have probably read about these. They position the round higher and release the round at the proper time. Hybrids have really a gun or two of mine.

The pictures of the mags you show have wadcutter feed lips. These won't work well in every gun.

[Tom]

Are you having this RTB issues during normal firing conditions, or when loading a new magazine and chambering the first round?

I agree on cleaning the extractor tunnel and lightening up on the tension some. Check our home page on how to test and adjust the extractor tension.

[niemi24s]

. . .on the wealth of details in your post. A superb job of providing the necessary info.
. . . there are small brass shaving around the frame rails etc when disassembled.
These shavings may be coming from the edge of the case rim during feeding if the bottom inside corners of the breech face guide blocks (BFGB) have sharp edges. If so, not only will the case head be slowed in its journey up the breech face by the scraping action, but the scrapings themselves will get between the slide and frame.

If careful examination of the case rims shows scraped areas and the BFGB's have sharp bottom edges, dressing down those sharp edges a little may do the trick.

I too think the extractor tension's too high. And don't worry about the round going off when the slide is vigorously shaken.

Regards

[John]

Your extractor is a bit on the tight side. Loosen it up a little.

[berkbw]

I might have missed this - do you reload?
b-

[toolman]

Like Tenx said above, those magazines have the semi-wadcutter feed lips. Use those for semi-wadcutter ammo and get your self some Checkmate hybrid feed lip mags or GI feed lip mags for the FMJ's.

+1 on that extractor tension, just a touch to heavy.

[berkbw]

Maybe you need to send it back, eh?...

If you sent the whole gun - go for it.

b-

[sk8n3rd]

Thanks for all the replies!! Please bear with my answers. :)

Front what everyone's saying, I think I'm going to tweak the extractor a teeny bit lose, and not change anything else with the setup and go see what that does. Then move onto magazines.

Hunter,

I would say the breechface looks "brassy." :) That was just my observation off the top of my head. When I look at it closer, it looks a bit rough but doesn't seem to be rough from any kind of machining. I think I probably need to clean it (which I have been avoiding while troubleshooting) and look at it then. Right now it's probably rough from crud. (see pic).

I've never cleaned the extractor tunnel since buying it 1200 rounds ago. I have been good about everything else (100 rounds per cleaning) though.

As for the recoil spring, I'll have to look around for that. It's the one that shipped with the pistol.

usmc_dd214 and tenx,

Yeah, when it malfunctions, I have to is just press the rear of the slide - near the rear sights - forward with one finger and it chambers and fires like nothing ever went wrong.

I have a single Wilson Elite 8 Rounder that I bought. I haven't used it for a little while because I sorta remember (I wish I took better notes when I first got the pistol) that it had an FRTB or two with the Wilson. That will be a good test to run that Wilson through it right now while it's in malfunction mode.

Tom,

I don't remember ever having one of the malfunctions during the first, hand racked rounds. All the ones I can remember were middle to last of the magazine.

berkbw,

No reloads through this pistol, yet. They sell reloads at the range but as of now I've always just used factory ammo (mostly Blazer Brass FMJ).

Here's a pic of the breechface (dirty from 150 rounds):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2031/2333471971_04ff2e3130.jpg

Thanks again everyone.

[niemi24s]

Here's something else to consider.

Most the ammo you've been shooting is CCI Blazer Brass; of all the commercial ammo I've tested, this stuff suffers the most bullet setback in the case during feeding; the vast majority of bullet setback occurs when the bullet strikes the frame's feed ramp; this setback action detracts from the cartidges nose's (bullet's) upward glance off of the feed ramp; not glancing up quickly enough can cause the bullet to contact the barrel's feed ramp down low and lift up the back of the barrel, causing a FTRB.

The Winchester White Box (WWB) I've tested suffered only only about half as much setback as CCI BB.

Have you had any FTRB's when shooting WWB?

[niemi24s]

Just looked at the breech face pic again. Don't see anything unusual on the breech face, but . . .

. . . is that a little pile of brass shavings against the bottom of the ejector?

[log man]

Find the brass shaver and you found the problem! I've never seen so much brass,I'd suspect the extractor first.I would suggest a detail clean, remove all signs of brass, after which I'd hand cycle a few rounds and inspect, you'll see a little brass smear from where it's originating, I hope! It'll be an AH-HA for sure!

[Tom]

Well, he did say he purposely hasn't cleaned the gun, and hasn't touched the extractor tunnel in over 1200 rounds. So this pile of brass shavings could be the accumulation over hundreds of rounds. Now if this accumulated after, say, 50 or 100 rounds, then I'd be more suspicious of something scraping the brass.

Still, if you can find some of the spent brass and check for scratches or nicks, that would be helpful.

I think a good extractor tunnel cleaning and slight adjustment of the extractor itself will yield positive results.

[log man]

Tom, He says the pic is 150 rds. :scared:In addition to my previous post, there should not be any brass shavings what so ever,ever! A light brass smear on breach face and on points of hard contact okay, but no chips, did I say that already. :D

[Tom]

I sit corrected. I missed that, focusing only on the earlier comments about "I think I probably need to clean it (which I have been avoiding while troubleshooting)" and "I've never cleaned the extractor tunnel since buying it 1200 rounds ago".

[sk8n3rd]

niemi24s,

I did try the WWB a few times and, ironically, initially believed it was the culprit of the malfunctions. Turned out it was just timing cause the blazer brass does it too.

About the brass shavings, yeah, that's brass every where. When I've been cleaning it I've always been like "man, brass chips everywhere!" but never knew it was that abnormal.

The little pile near the ejector is actually some kind of glue that holds the ejector in place but that is indeed brass lying all over it and the rest of the frame. So it looks worse than it is but there's definitely a brass mess inside my pistol.

And, yep, that's 150 rounds and there's more brass shavings to be found if I strip it and look around near the disconnector etc.

It almost makes me want to go shoot the pistol in malfunction mode before extractor tuning and collect some of the brass just to see how crazy it is. :) :) It might cost me a bit of time but I'm almost thinking it will be worth it for the fun of diagnosis.

[Jigballs]

looks like brass chips in the firing pin hole also.

[John]

The fact that you can push the slide forward (and the round is chambered OK, if you do that) indicates a slight stem bind, most probably from an over-tight extractor. The brass shaving is definitely not very normal, but until you can figure out where they come from I can't suggest you do something about them. Check your fired cases.

[sk8n3rd]

I went to the range in the name of science.

I had one malfunction out of 50 rounds. This one was a bit different. The extractor was "around" the rim instead of below it and the rim was against the breachface. This time, I could not chamber the round by pressing on the rear of the slide. Is this a 3 point jam?

I looked at all of the fired cases and they all pretty much looked the same. On the angled part of the case there's a ding or scrape. I also noticed that up the case from the ding there's small scratch you can hardly notice, but it's there pretty much every time too.

I'm attaching a photo. It's safe to say every case looks like this one, except the one that malfunctioned. That one has the same but also had a line running around it near the bullet (3 point?).

Thoughts? I'm still planning on adjusting the extractor like everyone suggested. I just wanted to throw more evidence into the pile. Maybe someone else will run into the same issue down the road and this will help them too.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2336435774_e3d69891ee.jpg

[log man]

sk8n3rd,Good pic, for one thing the dent in the case bevel shows the extractor is long, as it is being forced into the case at battery.Dress it down at the same or near angle as the case . Remove as little as possible to retain hook strength,but it must not touch the case bevel. ;)

[sk8n3rd]

So adjust the extractor tension and remove a bit of material on the extractor itself until it no longer contacts the bevel when the rim is seated?

[log man]

sk8n3rd, Yep! That would be the drill, then a trip to the range and a report back. :D

[sk8n3rd]

I cleaned the tunnel, filed a little bit off the extractor claw and loosened the tension on the extractor. A live round falls free with a hard shaking but still stays put. It feels snug when sliding the rim under the extractor but not like a vice like it was.

Range report to come.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Lazarus]

Referring to the closeup of the breech face...notice the machining flaw on the breech near the left side breech block. That could be a source of shavings, especially the little pile near the ejector. Having the breech full of brass shavings won't help the cycling, but it is likely not the real problem. For that, we need to see where the bullet is striking as it comes out of the magazine. The last half dozen SA jammers had the bullet striking the barrel ramp, so the same thing is probably happening here. To see if the extractor is a contributor to the jamming, simply remove it and note if the rounds still hang up when feeding.

The closeup of the fired case shows a mark from the extractor nose that is typical of 99% of 1911's unless they happen to be manufactured before 1940. You will usually run out of hook before you can file enough clearance for no bevel contact, depending upon the individual extractor and gun of course. Why are hooks on most aftermarket extractors placed so far forward? My guess is that this practice developed concurrently with the wadcutter craze to increase the chances of feeding non-standard ammo.

Lazarus

[Tom]

A live round falls free with a hard shaking but still stays put. It feels snug when sliding the rim under the extractor but not like a vice like it was.
I think you're on the right road now.

[log man]

Lazarus, In my experience, only two of the last 12 1911's hit the bevel with the extractor nose that I tuned. One was easy to file back and the other, a Detonics from the 80's which measured 0.020" short from firing pin stop to breech face was more trouble! With it' I welded a shim in the extractor slot and filed the slot forward to fit the stop, that fixed the problem nicely.I have noticed that extractor length can and does vary even within the same manufacture. I guess that's why they always say fitting required. :D

[Lazarus]

I welded a shim in the extractor slot and filed the slot forward to fit the stop, that fixed the problem nicely.:D

My hat is off to you log man. That's the only way I can figure to actually get the dimension you want. But the work involved to do it! Wow! You won't see that job offered by many smiths in their reliability package!

Now, a couple of questions. What kind of guns are you tuning? You say you have had 10 out of 12 guns whose extractors do not hit the case bevel, and yet I have barely seen 1 out of hundreds that did not hit. Specifically, I'm referring to the extractor nose touching or climbing the case bevel when the case is slammed hard against the breech.

There are lots of extactors out there to try, and all of them have different dimensions. Even a batch of the same type will all have different dimensions sometimes. If there is a part out there that puts the hook close to the breech face, I'd like to know about it. I've tried the new EGW part and found that once again I'm removing lots of material on the hook in the attempt to achieve a no-hit situation. Using your method of brazing in a shim at the rear of the extractor is admirable, but what about losing the proper heat treatment in the process? Since you have experiemented with re-orienting the extractor towards the rear, how close to the breech should the hook actually be before feeding problems crop up?

At this time, I'm not going to worry about extractor hooks climbing the bevel, simply because it seems nearly impossible to achieve with modern parts. Recently, I have realized the role of the forward profile of the extractor hook in proper ejection. As the case is being ejected, the rim and bevel roll accoss the hook face on their way out of the gun. The shape and position of that hook face obviously will affect ejection angle and reliability. In that sense, the hook forward profile is most important to case ejection.

Perhaps extractors that bang the case bevel lose their tension over time - makes sense, but I've never had a real problem with it. Maybe case banging can even snap the hook off the extractor as some have suggested. Also possible, but none of my guns has ever broken an extractor hook. In fact, I'd like to see a thread where people post photos of their broken extractors and the particulars of how they broke. It seems to me that too much has been made of this one possibility.

Lazarus

[log man]

Lazarus, The pistols in question were Springfields, Colts, Sig GSR, Kimbers, Para, and the Detonics that I mentioned. To be fair, I have the habit of tuning an extractor before shooting as I discovered they come as they are, no tension to 4#, I've found for me 16-24 .oz with the Weigand gauge to be about right. So in this process I polish the face of the extractor to make riding over the rim, if it should ever happen easier on the part.Others may have been a bit long before I do this. Back to the Detonics, I used TIG which allows precise heat control.After trimming the shim to a moon shape and wedging it in place with a piece of wire I fuse welded it on the radius, quick and easy(some times).It doesn't really get too hot past this point.The target between breech face and hook is 0.075",on the .45. The Colt Gold Cup was the one that needed more dressing.BEST, Richard

[sk8n3rd]

I took Old Jammer to the range last night. Excellent results!

I shot 150 rounds and only had one malfunction, which was magazine related (my guess) and none of the "bound up by the extractor" variety.

I still haven't cleaned the pistol (save for the extractor tunnel) and I would have expected an malfunction rate of 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 in the past.

If the extractor adjustments didn't get rid of the problem 100%, they sure helped it.

About the magazine induced malfunction:

The round was sitting cockeyed in the breech with the rim sorta stuck up against the wall opposite the ejection port. It just looked like the round must have been way out of control when it tried to feed. And it was the last round. I had marked my magazines a while back and this was one that I've had a few malfunctions with before (all of the "last round in mag" variety"). Does this fit the bill for magazine caused or is there not enough information? (see pic)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3216/2344151317_cf8d8e7309.jpg

I'm going to keep testing (and get some better magazines) but so far so good!

Thanks for all the help!

[John]

Somehow I believe that this magazine needs a new spring. Also what recoil spring are you using in this gun and when was it last changed?

[sk8n3rd]

:) That craziness in the picture is a sign of a bad mag spring I take it?

The recoil spring is the one that came with the Springfield. I think those are 16 pounds.

As a side note, it's interesting that the malfunctions never occured with Brian Eno's Slide Glide applied. Is the stuff THAT good?

[John]

Most probably yes, the mag spring is one of the things that affect feeding. So if the round in the picture is a loaded round, and the gun stopped at the condition you are showing, it probably means your magazine spring was not strong enough to push the round in position in time. A very tight extractor could do that too, but I've never seen it before.

As for Slide Glide, I've never tried it, so I can't say.

[Coastie Doc]

Recently, I've become interested in the MC Operator. It looks like a decent gun.

It appears that most of the extractors do not fit flush to the rear of the slide. I see the extractor tension and hook-area angle have been brought up by others. Additionally, you are using MeGar magazines, the "From the Factory" spring set up on your gun and you have only cleaned the extractor and it's channel.

It looks like a timing issue were the last round pops up abruptly and the slide is catching the round between cycles. So it could be as simple as trying a different magazine or replacing the recoil spring with a Wolff factory 16lb. doing both may be the answer.

The extractor, because it may not be fitted properly is "clocking"...when this malfunction occurs look to see how the hook is positioned, or turned. The claw marks on your brass maybe a reflection of this. Or the angle and the amount that protrudes from the tunnel are out of spec causing the round to bumped out of position. However, if this was the case, then I would think you would see this happen throughout firing not only on the last round.

Or, the simplest solution is the best answer. The gun is dirty, has some burrs on the breach face and from firing this burr has become more pronounced or has been smoothed out from firing. Thus, cleaning the gun will clear all debris and function will return to normal.

Either way, I would clean the gun, look for unusual marks, and then go out and shoot. If all else fails SEND IT BACK TO S.A. It does have a Lifetime Warranty. Best of luck and please keep us posted.

[sk8n3rd]

I took the pistol to the range yesterday and put 150 rounds through it. The lone malfunction I had was when I chambered a round from slide lock by using the slide release - which I don't normally do, I usually run it with my hand. The malfunction looked like same old story - 3 point style with the rim under the extractor.

All in all though, I did not have a single malfunction while shooting, which I was having every 50 - 100 rounds. And the pistol has not been cleaned in 500 rounds now. So without a doubt, tuning the extractor and polishing the edges of it a bit made a world of difference. I'm guessing if I tweak the extractor a bit more (it was still a hard shake to get a round to fall out when testing) it might even be more tolerant. And then lose the suspect wadcutter magazines.

I'm not sure why using the slide release would generate a FRTB when no other ones ever showed up. I was able to champer it with a light tap on the rear and went about my business.

Thanks for all the help with this issue! I think I've saved myself a shipment to Springfield and learned lot about the feeding of the 1911 in the process.