Defensive loads for apartment dwellers

[Panos]

I live in an apartment and am next to others on 4 sides. It's an older building with pretty substantial plaster walls. I have two 1911s (full and Comdr) and two Sig 9mm (P239 and P228). I am using the Sig 239 loaded with the Federal Expanding Full Metal jacket (EFMJ) 105 gr. as my primary apartment gun and have my Colt Comdr loaded with Win. Silvertip 185 gr. as backup.

My primary concern is with over-penetration. I like my neighbors;-) What do other use in similar apartment situations?

Thanks,
Panos

[Captain Crunch]

Panos,

I think your choice of the Winchester Silvertip 185 grainer is an excellent one. That's the same load I use in my GI 1911A1 nightstand pistol. I live in a mobile home in a court with neighbors all around.

[horse 91-A1]

I'd go with 147 JHP on the 9 and 225/230 Gold Dot on the ACP. With handguns more mass is better and since you reload you can load for velocities that are within safe chamber pressures. :)

Bob

[Th0r]

I too live in an apartment, and I also use the 1911 as the defence gun. I top my mags with three rounds of "Blue" 145gr Glasser safety slugs. They 're expensive, but I'd don't want a stray or pass-through to kill anyone.

I just top the mags off cause I figure if the first three rounds don't to the job I may need somthing a bit heavier...like 10 HydraShocks. :D

By then I'm sure the neighbors have already hit the dirt.

[Panos]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a few more options now.
Panos

[Joni Lynn]

Thor, I liked that response. When I lived in an apartment, I kept a shotgun loaded with number 7 1/2 shot. The walls were so thin I figured anything with more energy than the plates the neighbors wife would throw might go right through the wall. Now I'm in a house and that worry is gone, as is the sounds of breaking plates at all hours. (not to mention the yelling and all)

[Hawkmoon]

I also like Thor's suggestion. I was going to suggest looking into "frangible" ammo, but I have no first-hand experience with any of the various types available so I would not know which to recommend. As to the "substantial" plaster walls -- I doubt they would do much more than slow down a hollow point, unless you got lucky and happened to hit one of the 2x4s in the cavity. Some apartment buildings have a masonry wall between units, and that would be more effective in stopping a real bullet, but unless you know that's what your building has, don't count on it.

A couple of months ago one of the magazines ran an article on penetration by a guy who set up some dummy partitions at his private range. He called it "the box of truth." If you can figure out how your walls are built, it might be a useful experiment to construct a small section the same way and shoot at it with a few different JHP rounds to see what happens.

As for a mobile home -- I don't think the walls of one of those would even slow down a JHP round out of a .45.

[wichaka]

Here's a pic of a 45 230gr Gold Dot that went thru a motel wall (2 pieces of sheet-rock) and clipped a wood stud;


http://w3.gorge.net/scshields/golddot.jpg


Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

[Jeffrey]

I use a Remington 1100, 20 gauge loaded with #6. I live in one of the highest crime rate areas in Indy and hear gunshots every night. I have also seen what pistol calibers can do in apartment walls. Get yourself a shotty and be safe! :)

[Sabre]

Here's a pic of a 45 230gr Gold Dot that went thru a motel wall (2 pieces of sheet-rock) and clipped a wood stud...
Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

I understand from your post on another forum that, unfortunatly, somebody was

[wichaka]

Yes sir you are correct..........

[usajeep1]

Over penetration can be a nasty thing, especially when you are the innocent victim that the errant round hits!! Glasers are proven and effective, but you never know with JHP's. I saw a 1911 go off, unexpectedly in the rear of a mobile home. It was loaded w/ 230 gr. winchester jhp's. The round went through 3 walls (length-wise) and exited the mobile home and struck the bed of a truck parked out front. The length of travel was about 85-100 feet. If the truck wasn't there , it would have entered the mobile home across the road. Could have been a deadly accident. Just food for thought....jeep...

[Hawkmoon]

Right.

Except in the case of special materials, like Kevlar and the newer ballistic vest materials, in general it is mass that stops a bullet. And while a sheetrock wall doesn't have a lot of mass to it unless you happen to hit a stud, the typical walls in a mobile home have even LESS mass. There's just nothing there to cause a bullet to slow down.

I wish I could remember which magazine I saw that article in. If anyone knows, or has a link to it on-line, please post the info so other people can read it. If I lived in an area where I could shoot outdoors on my own property I would make my own "box of truth" and post the results here for us. Unfortunately, I live in a relatively densely-built suburb, in a "blue" state.

'Nuff said!

[wichaka]

The pic of the bullet I posted was from a case a few Counties from me. It was taken from a victim, where a subject in the adjacent motel room had an AD with his .45

There's not much that will positively stop a bullet anymore. Like Hawkmoon said, there has to be mass, and a lot of it to be effective.

Car doors are thin, interior house doors are hollowcore, even the metal ones are hollow filled with insulation..........they sail right on thru those.
They are making bullets for .38's, when fired out of snubbies will penetrate car windshields. The list goes on and on.

The job rests with the shooter..........no AD's, and be able to place your shots.

[Panos]

What I keep coming to is that I'll be using my 9mm Kel-Tec P11 for defense in my apartment and not my .45. I kind of like the Glazer suggestion, top off the mag with 3 Glazer slugs and the rest with your favorite load. (Thanks for the tip Th0r)

I'm leaning towards either the Cor-Bon 115 +P Win. Silvertip 115gr as my favorite "backup" load under the Glazers, with the logic that light-and-fast will allow the hollow tip to expand more effectively from the 3 inch P11 barrel and therefore not over-penetrate a body . . . but not a wall.

So, the first 3 rounds of Glazer will at least give me a margin of comfort that if I miss then they wont go through the wall. If I miss, or not, and the perp keeps coming he/she will be close enough that I can't miss with the "backup" rounds under the Glazers;-)

[LFN]

Right.


I wish I could remember which magazine I saw that article in. If anyone knows, or has a link to it on-line, please post the info so other people can read it.

Don't know if its the same one but this sight is pretty interesting
http://www.theboxotruth.com

[McMike]

I too live in an apartment, and I also use the 1911 as the defence gun. I top my mags with three rounds of "Blue" 145gr Glasser safety slugs. They 're expensive, but I'd don't want a stray or pass-through to kill anyone.



I have 8 round mags for my 1911. Top 3 in each mag are Glazers, the bottom 5 are hollow point. As pointed out, they're expensive, but the Glazers are a measure of security you can't put a price on. They DON'T go into a wall (or soft tissue, for that matter) and come out the other side.

Glad to see another person using his head and thinking of others' safety. Good on ya.

[McMike]

The job rests with the shooter..........no AD's, and be able to place your shots.

can I get an "AMEN!"?

[Hawkmoon]

Don't know if its the same one but this sight is pretty interesting
http://www.theboxotruth.com
Some of the photos look the same, so I'm sure this is the same guy. Yes, the information is very interesting, and in some instances surprising.

[Elliot]

THE TRUTH BOX

Great link LFN, thanks, spent an hour checking it out.

"The truth, you can't handle the truth"

Thanks, E

[1911Tuner]

Apartment? 12 gauge shotgun...Short barrel...High-brass #2s or BB shot
if you can find it. No larger than #4 buckshot. Work out a drill with other family members, so that they'll respond to voice/command signals to stay put and get to cover, or come to a common room...depending on the situtation. Don't be a hero. Leave the house search/clearing to the police that you call on your cell or cordless phone. Get everyone into the same room if possible and cover the door.

Warn the intruder that you're armed and will shoot if the an attempt to breech the door is made. Racking a pumpgun loudly makes it clear that you're not bluffing. When the police get there, warn them of your situation and ask for a show of shields before allowing them to enter the barricaded room.

Get a dog if your lease agreement allows. Dogs are quick to alert and always on watch.. Even a small one is an excellent early-warning system, and a good deterrent. Yorkies are good, and make excellent and entertaining companion dogs to boot. Most housebreakers want to enter without being discovered. 98% of'em won't knowingly enter an occupied dwelling, even if only by a mouthy Yorkshire Terrier. The 2% that will are the most deliberate and dangerous.

[McMike]

Don't know if its the same one but this sight is pretty interesting
http://www.theboxotruth.com

pretty good stuff! thanks for the taking the time to find it. took us an hour to go through it!

[usajeep1]

I agree with 1911tuner, a dog is the best protection. I worked for many years as a LEO, and then in the private security industry. There is no better protection/prevention than a dog. Big or small, most criminals would rather find an easier, quieter target. Dogs do not let up, dont stop when you cry "uncle", and will defend their territory viciously. Even if your dog is a sweety pie, if he/she is confronted with an intruder, their "6th sense" tells them that something is wrong and they will change into an unrelenting defender. As for the shotgun, I also agree. A mossberg defender with a pistol grip and short barrel can be easily concealed, or even slept with in bed. No aiming is necessary, just point and shoot. Dove shot is a great load. But please, beware of the position of your dog, dove shot is not discriminatory.

[LLamaOmni]

Hey there everyone, I'm a newbie to the forum :)

I just recently bought a box of 200 Grain Hornady TAP FPD ammo....anyone have any experience with those?

Thanks for any insight!

[usajeep1]

I reload with Hornady 185 gr. XTP/JHP's. It is probably the most accurate bullet I have shot to date. Hornady makes some great rounds, but you'll have to shoot them to find what is most accurate in your 1911. Loads vary from gun to gun, so trial and error is the best way to find out what works best for you. Shoot paper, and if you can, try to shoot some fruit (pineapple works real good), this will give you some ideas of expansion/penetration. Also, if you can afford it, shoot some thick cuts of meat (boston butt, rump roasts, etc.., this will tell you of performance in "meaty areas". I actually hunt with my 1911, and have tested bullet performance on a number of wild pigs. Just a thought...jeep...

[rpelfrey]

Another option are those new frangible bullets. I'm just not sure how effective they would be on the perp though.