Anyone used Wilson Combat's "drop in" beavertail safety?

[Anopsis]

I have a very early Combat Commander that I wouldn't chop up for the world, but the bobbed safety lets me get bitten too often. I see that Wilson Combat sells a beavertail that is radiused to fit factory Colt frames... anyone try it?

TIA!

[John]

I haven't actually tried one, but I've seen pictures of one in a thread here, and it looks quite well fitting. Years ago, these beavetails were so ill-fitting that you'd better not try them, it looks as if they've come a long way, since then.

Rgds

[wichaka]

I've tried 3 of them on Commanders in the last month, not one of them has fit the frame right. At the bottom of the BT where there's a radius, it doesn't match the radius in the frame. I've been working with a couple guys in the Wilson shop the last 2 weeks to get it corrected.

I'll be calling them today, as I've got another that won't fit.

But when they do, they are very good, almost as good as a custom job.

[BigSlick]

I recently put one on my XSE Lightweight Commander.

Piece of cake to fit and it blended very well. Looks almost custom fitted,none of the slop or gaps some report.

Fitting entailed a bit of filing the tang that touches the trigger bar only. Everywhere else, it fit great. Of course, no mods to the gun or frame, simply the drop in part. Total time from out of the package to installed and passing safety check was about 15 minutes.

The instructions Wilson includes are a bit sparse to say the least, but a bit of careful attention with a small file and some patience it goes without a hitch.

Just my experience

BigSlick

[SMMAssociates]

Well, I think it's a Wilson.... Brownells, about six months back....

I screwed up the first one - took too much metal off the thing, but it still looked good. Gave it to a gunsmith buddy who did it right, after ordering a new drop-in.

Looks good, works well.

Bless Brownell's order history. It is a Wilson, Brownell's number: 965-429-110.

(Out of stock right now, of course.) They've got blue and stainless for both the Commander and GM.

The instructions were adequate, barely. What's not mentioned is that when you take off much more than the thickness of the paint, you may go too far. My problem, besides being a tad too agressive, was in not really knowing what I was doing - I couldn't see what was going on, nor the relationship I was trying to get with the bow & sear. In the down position, the tip of the thing contacts the bow or sear (can't remember which and I'm too lazy to look it up) and prevents rearward movement. Squeeze the grip and the tip moves up - a relieved area allows room for the parts to travel and trip the sear.

I think (ask somebody who knows :eek: ) that you want to take more metal out of the relieved area and leave the tip alone once you're anywhere near a good fit. In short, no matter how badly it fits in the "at rest" position, don't start screwing with that until you can get the gun to fire when the grip is squeezed. Then start shaving the tip area.

(I also got to curse my choice of grips - actually, the choice of the guy who willed the gun to me - Pachmayr's that cover the mainspring housing retention pin. Had to take the grips off to screw around with this way too many times.... The thing also behaves a bit oddly when fitted together but not locked down, but that was probably my unfamiliarity with what I was trying to do.)

After paying for a new part, and a gunsmith to install it, I found out that you can peen the tip of the thing a bit and get some of the missing metal back and try again. When I get a couple of free hours I may try that for the heck of it. Kuhnhausen endorses this technique, oddly enough. I think there's enough metal there that peening it - which makes the tip thinner - isn't going to make it any less capable as long as you don't do too much of it. I wasn't here, I didn't say this....

Safety-related modifications are probably best left to competent gunsmiths, but this one's probably not going to get you into too much trouble. IANAL....

YMMV may vary, of course, but a friend's got a 1911 (Springfield, I think) where a custom (i.e., machine the frame) grip safety was installed, and I think my drop-in fits better. There are some who say that the drop-ins don't shoot the same - higher hand position? I don't see any difference there, but what do I know....

Regards,

[mitchjoe]

1911Dude:

King's also makes a drop-in grip safety for Colt Commander's. Yes, you can tell it's a drop-in, but I've never had one fail to fit or function. The most I've ever had to do is hit the engagement-arm w/ a few file strokes.

mitchjoe

[eddailey]

THIS (http://blindhogg.com/gunsmith/wilsonbt.html)should help.

[RickB]

I have a Wilson drop-in on my Delta Elite; while the fit in the tang area isn't perfect - the shortcoming of any drop-in beavertail - the fit in the area that fills the backstrap is perfect. It looks so much better than Colt's own safety, that I don't know why they don't just buy from Wilson.

[John]

THIS (http://blindhogg.com/gunsmith/wilsonbt.html)should help.

This article does not refer to a drop-in beavertail.

Here is a thread (http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=3019) with some pictures of a drop-in Wilson BT in a Colt pistol. As far as I am concerned, that's very good fit, for a drop-in beavertail.

Rgds


Rgds

[SMMAssociates]

John:

This article does not refer to a drop-in beavertail. I'm confused.... It could indeed be describing how to fit the tip, or fit the beavertail itself into the frame, although you don't need to pull the grip bushings for that....

Guess it's worth a read. He doesn't actually mention machining the frame radius that's needed to install some of these beavertails. Or at least I didn't see it - the mutt may have been pestering me again....

Regards,

[wichaka]

Look down a few lines, and you'll see where he talks about putting the jig on the frame and taking off the excess material.

I just got off the phone with Wilsons, they said that there's some variations in frames where the bottom of the BT may have to be fitted.

I must be cursed with off spec frames, as I've had to fit 3 now in that area. Still not as much work as fitting a regular BT, and they still look very good.

[Anopsis]

John:

He doesn't actually mention machining the frame radius that's needed to install some of these beavertails. Or at least I didn't see it - the mutt may have been pestering me again....

Regards,

I took a look, and he mentions removing the grip bushings in order to install the Wilson jig, Like this one:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=16454

It's used to simplify the process of grinding the frame to the .220(?) radius for the standard BT.

Thanks to everyone for your responses and advice... I ordered the drop-in today! :)

[XMP]

I've installed a Wilson drop-in on my SS Commander. The fit is good and installation was fairly simple (I'm not a smith, nor do I play one on the internet :D ). My only complaint is that the stainless is a lot brighter than the Colt frame. I buffed/scuffed it with a green scotch pad and that helped tone it down so it does'nt stand out as much now.

[John]

Take it to the .... beach with you one day, and spend the entire day pushing it inside the sand. Not exactly sand-blasting, but ... close! LoL

Seriously though, try one of those metallic sponges that your better half is using in the kithen, they might have a better effect than the green scotch pad.

[Todesengel]

I put one on the 1991 Commander I had, here is a pic;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/1911-A1/aftercc.jpg

It felt a lot better then the original safety and it looked ok. Installation wasn't a problem - good instructions included also...

[Anopsis]

It arrived today, and I stripped my Commander down and started the fitment process. I have the same problem that someone else mentioned; the radius of the bottom is not the same as the frame. I have been trying to relieve the frame slightly on the inside edge where it is making contact, but it looks like I'd have to use my Dremel rather than a file to remove enough material. Suggestions?

[Todesengel]

It arrived today, and I stripped my Commander down and started the fitment process. I have the same problem that someone else mentioned; the radius of the bottom is not the same as the frame. I have been trying to relieve the frame slightly on the inside edge where it is making contact, but it looks like I'd have to use my Dremel rather than a file to remove enough material. Suggestions?

Do it right or not at all! Have somebody who knows how install a non-drop in beavertail. What's the use of the drop-in part if you still have to mess with the frame tangs - I also would send the part back to Wilson Combat and ask for a refund...in the end they guarantee that you are satisfied...

[wichaka]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU THERE WITH THE DREMEL NEXT TO THE FRAME...........PUT THE DREMEL DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!

If something needs to be modified, modify the part not the frame. If you happen to mess something up, the part is cheaper to replace than the frame.

Like I posted before, I've run into a few drop in BT's that needed to have the lower radius modified to match the frame. Then just touch up the radius job with some cold blue.

I'm sitting here in a cold sweat waiting to hear your reply on how things went.

[Anopsis]

heh ... no worries. I'm going to grind on the BT tomorrow! You can relax (for) now. ;)

[SMMAssociates]

What Todesengel said....

My Combat Commander's of about 1975 vintage, and two Wilson drop-ins dropped right in. No fitting at all except for the actual safety lever thing. (Highly technical term that I'm too lazy to look up the real name for.)

I suppose you could have an odd frame, but if I read things right, the Commanders of that date were all "commercial", and more likely to be well made v.s. tossed-out-the-door-as-fast-as-possible wartime GM's.

Which makes me wonder if you got the right part, or if it's defective.

I would understand (I'm not much of an expert) if you had to relieve a little here or there for a perfect fit, but not a heck of a lot more than the thickness of the paint.

(I can't speak for Wilson's QC - we've heard it both ways in this thread. My first one was a perfect fit out of the bag if I'd not have screwed up the internal part. The guy who installed the second one would have said something, and it sure looks like he didn't cut any frame metal. Guess I could ask him.)

You could still run into "tolerance" issues of up to 0.020", I'd guess, back there where nothing much matters, but I think the frames were machined, which leads only to tool-wear issues, and you'd have to be a the wrong end of a tool change or two.

First step would probably be a good smith. He should be able to tell you where to go next.

Regards,

[wichaka]

Do it right or not at all! Have somebody who knows how install a non-drop in beavertail. What's the use of the drop-in part if you still have to mess with the frame tangs - I also would send the part back to Wilson Combat and ask for a refund...in the end they guarantee that you are satisfied...

Tod'.......its the bottom side of the BT where it meets the main spring housing. The radius on the bottom edge doesn't match up with the radius on the frame.
If you look at the frame in the area of the main spring housing, you'll see that its narrow, then it widens out where the grip safety starts. Its that point of widening out that doesn't match the drop-in from Wilson.

I agree with you, if they say drop-in..........it should be. I called Wilson, and they blame the tolerance difference in the frame. I disagree with them, but that's the way it goes.

[Anopsis]

hmmm. When you spoke to Wilson, did you get them to send you another BT? After thinking about it for a while, I might call them and try that route. There's no 'smith within a few hours' drive around here.

[wichaka]

I had them send me another, it had the same problem.

They blame it on the frame...........I give up.

I still think they have the best looking drop-in I've ever seen, but their QC blows!

[SMMAssociates]

Wichaka:

Do you still have the BT or the frame? Want to mic 'em? I've got a 70's Combat Commander here I can do the same with.

(I can send you that dead BT, too, if you want to see it. Wilson may be right, although the idea of having to take enough off enough to grab for the Dremel makes me wonder.)

Chad:

Can you point me to the dimensions that don't fit? I can mic my Commander. IAC, I would see if Wilson can send you another one, but at about $30 (not counting all the fun dealing with UPS or the Post Office) there's not a lot of hazard in slicing & dicing the BT. If I'm getting Wichaka's information right, I'm not sure why he didn't do that (if he didn't).

You might be able to use that fitting trick posted for the frame machine work to fit the thing.

Guess I'm lucky - there are a couple of good smith's within a few minutes of my house. I'm not sure I'd use one of them again (long story), but he's better than I am :) , and another guy's great, too. A third candidate might be too busy, but.... He was a competition shooter, and liked to work on his own gear, as well as building some interesting stuff. A now deceased buddy of mine (he gave me the Commander) used to reload for him.

Regards,

[Anopsis]

Stu,
The Commander and said BT is at my store (I'm actually a dealer; just not a 'smith). I'll take some photos in the morning and post up.

Thanks for everyone's help, as well as being so nice to a new poster. ;)

[Anopsis]

I left the pics large so you can get a close view (~5.5MB ea)

http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0815.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0817.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0818.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0819.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0820.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0822.jpg

[wichaka]

SMM', actually I'll putting one in today...........tell me what exactly you want mic'd and I'll get to it.

[wichaka]

1911Dude, the last pic shows exactly the problem. The original grip safety narrows more than the Wilson part.

You may want to call Wilson, let them know you have the pic that shows the grip safetys side by side, then email it to them. Once they see that we're not nuts..........maybe they'll get off their hind end and fix the problem.

[Anopsis]

I realized the same thing when I took a second look.
Here's a couple photos of how much I had to take off the sides of the BT to get it to fit:

http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0824.jpg
http://www.thegunvault.net/images/bt/IMG_0825.jpg

Now to smooth the grind, prep and blue.

[SMMAssociates]

Chad:

You might want to talk to the folks at Wilson, but there'd be no harm in cutting the beavertail to make that thing fit. Wichaka's prior experience says that they're likely to claim "tolerances", but they might send you another one. I'm not an expert here, but I think these things are castings, and there's a bit of slop in the process. Your Commander's frame ought to be machined, but there are tolerance issues there too.

The next-to-last picture (820) seems to show that it almost fits - let's see what our other experts have to say, but I don't see anything wrong with a little cutting on the BT, but NOT the frame.

I looked at mine, and I can see where some of the finish has worn on the sides in the same area and up around the Frame Safety.

Regards,

[SMMAssociates]

SMM', actually I'll putting one in today...........tell me what exactly you want mic'd and I'll get to it.Just for the heck of it, I was looking to compare the width of the BT slot (the stuff Chad took the pictures of) between your Commander and mine. Just to see if it was "tolerances" in the Colt or at Wilson.

Just above the radius at the bottom, I guess....

I'll post mine, too if I can find the fool micrometer.

Although I was relatively incompetent with this stuff, I was at the former day job for about 32 years, and had access to a very well equipped machine shop. If I needed something (I did QC for a few years before I got involved with computers, Security, and Telcom), I tended to try to make it myself. So, I learned how to work most of the hardware (except the lathes, for some reason).

I could use 'em for personal stuff, too, off-shift, if I wanted to, but about the only thing I ever did besides using the drill press or table saw (custom shelves) was to use a die filer to take the serial numbers of a junk gun to test some goodies purported to be capable of raising the serial numbers. Didn't work - the pot metal frame was so soft that I took too much metal off without even trying....

The plastic stuff, of course, was made to some degree of precision, and practically everybody who ever met a customer had a dial micrometer and a good caliper-style mic. I did some design work somewhere along the line (somebody told 'em I could work a T-Square :) ) and had to check the final parts there, too. Not exactly rocket science until I got involved with the Wire EDM. (Which, oddly, came from Fujitsu-Fanon, with Colt involved some way too.)

All kinds of insane stuff happened there over the decades, but the funniest probably happened in the 70's. I was on vacation with a buddy, and we ended up visiting a sales rep in Philadelphia. We'd become friends over the years - he and his brother would come up at least once a month. While I was sitting in his office, an irate customer called, and he said that "my brother will be right over with a 'factory man'".... Me....

About all I could do was grab some samples (weatherstripping) and take 'em back to our Sales Manager, but it impressed the customer. My QC work was largely in the materials rather than the actual shapes, so about all I could do was guess, which I did very quietly: "Hm.... That doesn't look quite right. We'll get back to you...." It wasn't....

Regards,