Half Cock Notch Test Fail

[DEE DEE DEE]

Hi All,
I just come in to possession of a 9mm SA 1911. It fails the half cock notch test but not with out noticablely more pull than from full cock. What is the problem? How serious is this? It is not a carry gun it is just for fun I bought it from a friend and have played with it since he bought it used in 2005. Please shed some insight. I have searched and all I got was confused with this post http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=8294&highlight=half+cock+notch+test

[John]

DDD, Springfield has been using some strange hammers in their pistols lately. Their hammers have three notches instead of two a standard 1911 hammer has. The first is of course the full-cock notch. The second is what we used to call a half-cock notch, which (if memory serves me right) is captive. In other words, if the trigger is pulled with the hammer in that position, then hammer will NOT fall. And there is a third notch (you can call it a quarter-cock notch), which is supposed to be non-captive, in other words the trigger will release the hammer from that position.

To find out if your pistol has such a hammer, cock the hammer slowly and count the clicks you will hear. If you hear three, then your hammer is the one described above. If you hear only two clicks and the hammer releases from the half-cock notch, then you have a problem.

[SgtGarand]

If it takes alot of force to get it to release from the half-cock notch, wouldn't that damage the sear by forcing it over the half-cock notch? :confused:

[Rich-D]

If it takes alot of force to get it to release from the half-cock notch, wouldn't that damage the sear by forcing it over the half-cock notch? :confused:

The Springfields have a quarter cock notch, wherein the hammer is released when the trigger is pulled. However the strike is so light that the gun will not or I should say should not fire. The EMP I have has the quarter cock notch.


ich

[CryingWolf]

It is a Springfield pistol and it may not have the half-cock "notch". It is more like a shelf. My Hi-Cap will drop from half-cock (really more like less then quarter-cock) It will not or "should not" fire though. There was some range nut running around fixing peoples pistols in his classes, in the process probably making the pistol very unsafe. Reason is if you notice the SA's half cock is very close to the firing pin. Notching the hammer will cause it to come even closer to the FP.

Next time I have my SA apart I will take some micro pictures of the hammer and sear with this half-cock shelf.

I am not sure what other manufactures use a half-cock shelf in their hammer. I keep wanting to think colt series80's do. I have yet to see a third party hammer with a shelf, only a true notch.

[DEE DEE DEE]

John
It is only a 2 click hammer

Sgt
It is noticeably different but not a huge amount of force maybe 10lbs but I am no gauge

Cry
It is very close to the FP but then again I don't know where it is suppose to be


All
lets assume this is not normal. What is the problem and how can it be resolved?

[John]

Most probably damaged hammer half-cock notch. New hammer or ...

Wait a sec, did older SA pistols had a captive half-cock notch?

[br6ppc]

I'm going to check the original SA hammer in my pistol when I get off work. I currently have the Cyl & Slide Tactical II kit installed, but you have me curious about the old one.

Thanks for the heads up.

Roy

[DEE DEE DEE]

Most probably damaged hammer half-cock notch. New hammer or ...

Wait a sec, did older SA pistols had a captive half-cock notch?
It was manufactured in December of 2003. I was starting to think that also I have herd of other SA owners with this issue I think it came up in the thread I originally posted

Roy please let me know what you find out


All the input and help is much appreciated!

I am no noob mechanically is there a good guide to a complete disassembly of this bad boy? I am planing on "rebuilding it" but that is for another thread and another time :)

[DEE DEE DEE]

Most probably damaged hammer half-cock notch. New hammer or ...

Wait a sec, did older SA pistols had a captive half-cock notch?
It was manufactured in December of 2003. I was starting to think that also I have herd of other SA owners with this issue I think it came up in the thread I originally posted

Roy please let me know what you find out


All the input and help is much appreciated!

I am no noob mechanically is there a good guide to a complete disassembly of this bad boy? maybe I can yank it out and take some pics. I am planing on "rebuilding it" but that is for another thread and another time :)

[CryingWolf]

John, no it's not an issue!!!! SA made the hammer this way especially in 2003, my hi-cap is around a 2002. My hammer and sear are pretty good with a good crisp break. My half-cock is exactly like DEE DEE DEE's, oh heck, I'll look at taking mine apart and take a micro.

DEE DEE DEE,

Here are a couple of good videos on YouTube

YouTube 1911 Disassembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEBrkF0sMgI)

YouTube 1911 Reassembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bh6K5rNenc)

[DEE DEE DEE]

Great vids
Got her apart here is the hammer
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/Apdluu/STH73768.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=430691
comparing the two I see what you mean and it does not appear that the SA will lock up at half cock

[CryingWolf]

yep pretty well the same as mine.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2111/2250205634_035e5d5560_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2098/2249409675_6e9eab54bb_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2084/2250225526_8622e4a6ac_o.jpg

[Panama1911]

Many aftermarket and OEM hammers do not have a captive notch. It shouldn't have enough force to discharge, especially with SA's high power firing pin spring. I have also been told that this can prolong sear life, since there isn't a chance of the sear nose contacting a sharp, captive half cock hook. Not sure if it makes a difference though.

[DEE DEE DEE]

Many aftermarket and OEM hammers do not have a captive notch. It shouldn't have enough force to discharge, especially with SA's high power firing pin spring. I have also been told that this can prolong sear life, since there isn't a chance of the sear nose contacting a sharp, captive half cock hook. Not sure if it makes a difference though.
So the whole Half Cock Notch test is really hit or miss?

[Panama1911]

So the whole Half Cock Notch test is really hit or miss?

Not if you care/know enough to pull your pistol apart and look at the hammer, as you did. A hammer with a captive half cock should pass, and a hammer with a notch may or may not but does not need to. So I guess yeah, it can be hit or miss to an extent. Mainly, if you have an original (captive) hammer that does not pass, you need to find out why. Your pistol should not be a worry.

[DEE DEE DEE]

Awesome!
Thanks again for all you help!

[br6ppc]

I dug the original hammer out of the ole parts tray. Sure enough, it has all three. The 3rd one is about 3/32 above the half cock hook.

Odly enough, it has an overlap for about 95 percent of it's lenght. Almost like the feather you get when you sharpen a knife. It also may be from use.

I'll charge my camera batteries and post a photo, I hope.

Roy

[CryingWolf]

I dug the original hammer out of the ole parts tray. Sure enough, it has all three. The 3rd one is about 3/32 above the half cock hook.

Odly enough, it has an overlap for about 95 percent of it's lenght. Almost like the feather you get when you sharpen a knife. It also may be from use.

I'll charge my camera batteries and post a photo, I hope.

Roy

Funny thing is, I don't see the point of having two half-cock notches? It would be interesting to see though.

[mbuzha]

If it helps, I have two springfields, one a Loaded about 3 years old, the other a brand-new mil-spec, both with factory springfield hammers. they both will fall from half-cock, but takes more force. and no, there apparently isn't enough force to fire a round. (i tried it several times...very carefully and safely of course!)

[john.day]

If weapon fails half cock test, take it to a qualified gunsmith for repair period. Better safe than..........
John Day
Tank-Automotive-Armament Command Rep
DoD-Army
Retired.
Pray for the troops!

[CryingWolf]

If weapon fails half cock test, take it to a qualified gunsmith for repair period. Better safe than..........
John Day
Tank-Automotive-Armament Command Rep
DoD-Army
Retired.
Pray for the troops!

Not if it is by design!!! Please see the pictures on page 2

[john.day]

IF it fails "1/2 cock" for any reason the weapon is unsafe.

[jimster]

I get confused sometimes reading about the "half cock" thing, I've never owned a 1911 with a half cock, or three clicks, although I know they are out there.
My Colt's and Springfiels all have quarter cocks...or that first click is really close to the firing pin, the next click is all the way back to full cock.
All my 1911's will drop the hammer when the trigger is pulled when it is at "quarter cock", since this is not a safety of any kind, I figure all my 1911's are normal.
The quarter cock on my 1911's will however catch and stop the hammer cold if I let the hammer slip while lowering it, providing I am not still pulling on the trigger.
In other words, with my had wrapped aound the pistol depressing the grip safety, hammer at full cock, if I pull the trigger and release the hammer, then let up on the trigger...then just let the hammer fall...the quarter cock will catch the hammer every time. Still with the hammer at quarter cock, pull the trigger and it will fall.
There is not much force of course because my hammer is already very close to the firing pin...so I'll call it quarter cock. I do think in the event that there was a failure and the hammer followed the slide forward while shooting...the quarter cock would also catch the hammer...providing you were not holding the trigger back.
My Colts and SA's are all like this...
I do NOT know how a "half cock"...or a "three click" pistol works as I have never owned one and do not know why they even make them...unless they are making the newer "half cock" hammers as a captive...where the hammer would not fall while the trigger is pulled. Ya...well...maybe they figured we needed one more safety to go with that ILS thing I finally got rid of...I suppose if I get a newer SA with the three click, or half cock...I'll have to buy another hammer. I'm kinda of getting sick of all these extra saftey features over the years they keep adding....I always figured the basic 1911 had enough safety built into them already.
Guess I feel the same way about lever action rifles...now they got cross bolts, bolt buttons, sliding tang safeties...sheesh. Next thing ya know we'll have to buy 1911's and rifles with combinations locks on them...for every shot.

[john.day]

Here is function test from 1911 site. Follow this and you can't go wrong.

The following steps are necessary when evaluating any M1911-type pistol that you plan on purchasing, in order to verify that the pistol is in safe working condition. Even if you have no plans to ever shoot the pistol, by verifying the working condition of the gun you will get an idea as to its true condition, and also feel assured that you are buying a real working firearm and not just an expensive paperweight. If the pistol fails these safety checks and you plan on purchasing it anyway, you MUST either have it repaired by a competent pistolsmith or else make sure that live ammunition is never fired in the pistol. Either find a tasteful way to mark it as being "not safe to fire", or else disable the firing mechanism completely.
It should also be understood that merely passing these safety checks does NOT guarantee that the pistol in question is safe to fire. Due to other factors such as improper headspace, metallurgical flaws, etc. it is still necessary to have a pistolsmith check the firearm over before firing live ammunition in it. These safety checks are merely for your use at the time of sale, in order to do a quick verification that there is nothing seriously wrong with the pistol. Once again, have a pistolsmith check over ANY used gun you buy before taking it to the range!
SAFETY WARNING: Performing these checks involves actuating the pistol's firing mechanism. DO NOT attempt any of these checks if you are not completely familiar with the operation of a 1911-type handgun. These checks are also only applicable to U.S. military-issue M1911/M1911A1 pistols, NOT any other types or models of firearms even if they may appear similar in appearance or operation. DO NOT ATTEMPT THESE CHECKS UNTIL AFTER YOU HAVE MADE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THE GUN IS UNLOADED. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE HOW PROPERLY UNLOAD THIS TYPE OF PISTOL YOU MUST FIRST SEEK THE ADVICE OF A QUALIFIED INDIVIDUAL. THE AUTHOR OF THIS WEBSITE HAS NO CONTROL OVER YOUR USE OF COMMON SENSE AND KNOWLEDGE OF FIREARMS, AND AS A RESULT NO LIABILITY IS EXPRESSED NOR IMPLIED. Safety involving the following procedures is SOLELY the responsibility of, and can be controlled only by the person actually handling the firearm.
SAFETY FIRST : DO NOT attempt any of the following safety checks until you have made ABSOLUTELY certain that the gun is unloaded! Point the gun is a safe direction, then: 1. FIRST completely remove the magazine.2. Lock the slide back, engaging the slide stop.3. LOOK into the chamber to ensure that no live round is present. Feel into the chamber with the tip of your little finger if you have to.Even after verifying that you are holding an unloaded gun, always keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction while performing the following tests.
BASIC TEST: Slide forward, hammer cocked, thumb safety off, holding pistol normally with firing hand. Pull trigger- hammer should fall.
FUNCTIONING TEST: Still holding gun in the firing hand, leave trigger pressed and pull slide back.
Release slide, keeping trigger pressed. Hammer should now be fully cocked. Release trigger, then pull it again. Hammer should fall.
HALF-COCK TEST: Using thumb, pull hammer back until the first audible click. Hammer should be at half-cock notch. Grip gun normally, attempt to pull trigger. Hammer should NOT fall for any reason, unless the gun is a Series 80 commercial. These guns have a re-designed half-cock notch that engages near the at-rest position, thus the hammer cannot fall hard enough to strike the firing pin with force. MILITARY GUNS WILL ALWAYS USE THE OLDER HALF-COCK NOTCH, WHICH SHOULD NEVER ALLOW THE HAMMER TO FALL.
SEAR ENGAGEMENT TEST: Lock the slide back, grip gun normally, then release the slide stop, allowing slide to slam home with force. The hammer should NOT fall for any reason. If it does then the hammer/sear engagement is too weak. Repeat test once again to be sure. Note: The gun's current owner may not appreciate seeing the slide being slammed home on an empty chamber in this fashion, even though it is a critical safety check. Tell the owner what you intend to do beforehand and why, and limit it to one or two attempts.
THUMB SAFETY CHECK: Holding gun normally with firing hand, slide forward, hammer cocked, thumb safety ON. Attempt to pull trigger. The hammer should not fall, nor should you feel any perceptible movement of internal parts. If you squeezed the trigger and it didn't come to a quick, hard stop (i.e. the trigger felt mushy) then there may have been some sear movement. Release trigger, disengage thumb safety. Hammer still should not fall. If it does the thumb safety and/or sear is faulty.
GRIP SAFETY TEST: Hammer cocked, slide forward, thumb safety OFF. Hold the gun so as to not depress the grip safety. Attempt to pull trigger. Hammer should not fall. If it does the grip safety is worn or has been deactivated.
DISCONNECTOR TEST: Slide forward, hammer back, thumb safety OFF. Grip gun normally with firing hand, while pulling slide back 1/4" with support hand. Pull trigger. Hammer should not fall. Repeat test by pulling slide all the way back, then releasing it slowly, pulling trigger every 1/2" of slide movement. The hammer should NOT fall until the slide has returned to the full forward position. If it does then the disconnector is worn. DO NOT fire the pistol until it is repaired, or else it may possibly go into firing uncontrollable bursts or go completely "full-auto".

[jimster]

My mil-spec's first click is like my series 80 Colt, first click is VERY near the firing pin, and if you pull the trigger with some force, it drops...but like the series 80, there is not nearly enough force to fire because the hammer is so close to the firing pin already, like my Colt. I tried it many times, it will not fire, neither will my series 80 Combat/Target. (At the range I tried this with both pistols)
Interesting...the mil-spec is not a series 80 type pistol, but the first click is almost right on top the firing pin like my Colt.
Hammer/sear engagement seems just fine.
My Milspec is a bit older, maybe they are building them different, well, they must be if people have half cocks and three clicks I guess.
I guess I'm not going to worrry much about it, It's not a saftey, don't ever use the
first click for anything...it was like this new, and after several thousand rounds, it's still like this...and after sending it in to Springfield for something and asking them to check it over while they had it...it came back to me like this.
I really don't like pulling the trigger hard enough to drop the hammer when it's at the first click anyways...did this at the range with both the Colt and the SA to see
if it would fire...and a few times here at home after reading where everybody's elses does this too. I think it's time to stop playing with that first click before I break something...LOL!
Thanks for the function test info...I passed them all except the first click.

[john.day]

if weapon fails first click test, hammer will not strike firing pin hard enough to fire weapon.
The weapon should be taken in and serviced by a qualified gunsmith.

Pray for the Troops.

[jimster]

Well, I sent it in to SA's smith's already...had that all over check up done while it was there. I figured since they have a custom shop there...?
At any rate, I might call them and ask them about it...but I'm not worried about either my Colt or the SA...I've never had a problem with either after gobs of shooting.
We'll see what they say when I call them.
Seems to me though, all the post I've read on all the guns that do this, there must be
thousands and thousands of them out there that fail the click test...from what I'm reading anyway. Can't be any more unsafe than my series 80's....and how unsafe can it be if I never use a quarter cock or half cock anyways?
I'll give them a call anyway to see what they say.

[jimster]

I just found out...my SA does not have a captive half cock notch in there, was not designed that way. Mine is a non captive notch...not even a quarter cock...but at any rate...they have different hammers out there on SA's.
My series 80 does not have the captive hammer notch either...dug out my old 1911 governtment model...it is captive, but that is not a series 80.

Appears as if the hammer is either designed with a "captive" half cock, or it's not.
Many of the springfields do not have the captive half cock. Mine does not.
No need to get worried....unless you have the hammer that is designed to be held
captive at half cock...and it drops.
Even more interesting.....SA has both kind of hammer out there, depening on what model you have....so I can see where this could get confusing for all of us wondering if the hammer is supposed to be captive or not.

[john.day]

It's only unsafe if you drop it or if you're a bad guy :)

[br6ppc]

Funny thing is, I don't see the point of having two half-cock notches? It would be interesting to see though.

I can think of several anologies, but I'll get censored if I write them. :nono:

The SA's don't have 2 half cock notches, only one, but some have a (for lack of a better description) a quarter cock notch.

The first cock ledge (not a captured notch) is about the same depth as the full cock notch. Then about 1/16 in. further is the normal half captured half cock notch. Finally, there is the full cock notch.

I replaced the fire control parts with the Cyl. & Slide Tactical II kit (hammer, sear, disconector, sear spring and main spring). This has the normal half cock & full cock ledges only.

Until I started reading this thread, I never noticed the 3rd notch. Never used it, never felt it, etc. It's like (uh oh, I can't say that one either) :D

I'm trying to find out how to take macro photos with my camera so I can show photos of the SA hammer and the Cyl & Slide hammer.

Roy

[CryingWolf]

I just found out...my SA does not have a captive half cock notch in there, was not designed that way. Mine is a non captive notch...not even a quarter cock...but at any rate...they have different hammers out there on SA's.
My series 80 does not have the captive hammer notch either...dug out my old 1911 governtment model...it is captive, but that is not a series 80.

Appears as if the hammer is either designed with a "captive" half cock, or it's not.
Many of the springfields do not have the captive half cock. Mine does not.
No need to get worried....unless you have the hammer that is designed to be held
captive at half cock...and it drops.
Even more interesting.....SA has both kind of hammer out there, depening on what model you have....so I can see where this could get confusing for all of us wondering if the hammer is supposed to be captive or not.

Really the only thing to do is to check if you have a failing captive half-cock notch or a flat half-cock shelf. The last picture of mine on page two post #13 shows my hammer at half-cock. I don't know if the space is different when it is a captive half-cock notch?

In any case this same discussion has been going on for along time. When I did the safety function test on my SA I was worried that it had failed the half cock test. I then did a little research and found out that SA's shelf is by design, along with series 80 colts. I even read a forum thread where a range safety officer was not allowing people on the range when their SA or colt failed that test. The scary thing is he was "fixing" the problem. You can sort of guess how. He would file the shelf into a captive notch. This has the effect of lowering the hammer closer to the FP, which I am sure was making the pistol unsafe.

I broke out the manual for my Springfield, page 11;
Safety Stop on Hammer
The Safety Stop is a flat, shelf-like surface on the
hammer which functions automatically. It will engage the
sear in the unlikely event of primary sear notch failure.
This will prevent the hammer from falling fully forward
unintentionally and will insure against uncontrolled
automatic fire. It also prevents the hammer from striking the
firing pin should your hand slip from the slide or hammer
while cocking the pistol, provided the hammer is rotated
past the Safety Stop. It is located such that when the sear
engages the Safety Stop, the sear can be disengaged by
squeezing the trigger. It falls because the sear slides over
the flat part of the safety stop to release the hammer. This
is intentional but will not allow the pistol to fire. It will not
fire because the hammer is almost fully forward when it is
released from the sear. The Safety Stop is not a manual
safety and should not be engaged by hand. Do not carry
the gun while Safety Stop is engaged.

[jimster]

Thank you very much for this information CryingWolf, very much appreciated.
Now that explains even more why my SA hammer acts like a series 80 hammer.
Hey, that range officer story is kind of scary, guess lack of info can be costly.

Thanks again for this

Jim

[br6ppc]

I finally found out how to use the macro focus on my camera. Tonight I'll post the photo of the (3) notch I removed from my Loaded S/S Springer.

[br6ppc]

Here it is.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj55/br6ppc/IMG_0158.jpg


http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj55/br6ppc/IMG_0159.jpg

Sorry about the delay, but I got sidetracked several times on this, but it works fine, just a little involved to get an image posted.

Roy