Soldering a Plunger tube?

[project1911]

Lets talk about it, how is it done torch? iron? what kind of solder? how well does it hold, alternative to staking?

[1911Tuner]

A properly staked plunger tube...supported by the grip as intended...will likely outlast the gun. Why solder it?

[project1911]

lack of proper staking tools, i have the equip to solder. no doubt a good job staking would be prefferable, i just saw that i could be done and i was curious about the process and the results

[1911Tuner]

I just saw that i could be done and i was curious about the process and the results

Can't say. I never tried it. I'd venture a guess that a lead/tin solder would be too soft to be of any real benefit, and the heat involved in silver-soldering would likely warp the thin tube enough to bind the plunger assembly. At the very least, it would anneal it and cause a problem at some point.

A staking tool can be bought pretty cheap from Brownells. Use a carbid burr or a small, round stone in a Dremel to grind a "well" on the inner sides of the holes to give the metal a place to rivet into...backed by a dab of good epoxy or JB Weld...and you've got a pretty stong stake. Using a grip panel that properly supports the tube, and you'll be old and gray before it turns loose.

[Hill]

A staking tool can be bought pretty cheap from Brownells. Use a carbid burr or a small, round stone in a Dremel to grind a "well" on the inner sides of the holes to give the metal a place to rivet into...backed by a dab of good epoxy or JB Weld...and you've got a pretty stong stake. Using a grip panel that properly supports the tube, and you'll be old and gray before it turns loose.

I'm old and gray. Does it mean that all of my plunger tubes are about to fall out...............on top of everything else??

[Lazarus]

The staking tool is inexpensive; making one is quite easy also. You have a small part with very thin walls being attached to a large part with thick walls. It is possible that the small, thin walled part may become damaged sometime during its life and need to be replaced. No problem for a staked part.

Here is the deal with soldering. Soft solder is something that is used to make good electrical contact between wires. It is useless as a mechanical bond.
Well, it is used to make stained glass windows.

For years, the welding industry has referred to silver brazing as "silver soldering". The correct term would be brazing, due to the high heat required - 1100-1200 degrees. Yes there are some silver solders that melt at lower temps, but there are no free lunches. FYI: many plunger tubes do not fit absolutely flush with the frame at all points. Silver braze does not gap fill. And, if you are not a metal artiste you will have silver all over the side of your frame...not to mention the possibility of warping it and reducing its hardness. Hmmm, how do I know that?

The staking tool is a modified pair of vice grips and a little block to protect the plunger tube while you are staking. An alternative staking tool can be made from a piece of steel bar with a staking point attached (here is your chance to weld). That tool works the same way as the grip bushing staker.

Good Luck!
Lazarus

[David Rose]

LOL! You guys make it too hard. Brownell's carries a "silver bearing, high strength" silver solder (Hi Force 44, I think) that would probably do the job and with no damage to the parts. It isn't cheap, and you need the proper flux. And do not send it to me for cleanup! But I suspect it would work. Would I use it on a gun that I would stake my life on? NOPE! But if solder and flux is cheaper than the staking tool or easier than the homemade one, and it won't be used seriously, go for it. I'll keep staking, but it is a unique idea.

David

[Greg Derr]

The cost of rebluing after enough heat is applied to the area would make in less than cost effective. Probably warp the tube too.

[David Rose]

Hi-Temp Hi-Force 44 is 38,000 psi at 650 degrees. That is not enough to warp parts or effect bluing, if carefully cleaned up. I've not tried it, just going by the ads. I'll bet it would work. I would still prefer crimp which is relatively easy to do.

David

[Lazarus]

David, I'm sending you my 1911's for plunger tube soldering. I'm now convinced that the staking might give way in a stressful situation! Seriously, as I stated before, there are no free lunches. A solder that melts at 650 is truly a "soft solder". It may contain silver all right, but unfortunately the info is very misleading to the general public. Next, I suppose they will be advertising room temperature solder. We call it glue.

Standard radio solder, tin and lead, melts at around 700 degrees and will generally hold a few small wires together if they aren't stressed. The whole point of brazing is to get a strong mechanical joint and that strength comes at a price - you have to heat the metal sufficiently to get that bond.

By the way, you can order a Caspian frame with an "integral plunger tube". That is, the p.t. is actually machined into the frame, not staked or welded. Why not go all the way?

Lazarus

[berkbw]

I think there are no lead based solders made anymore.

[Hill]

A solder that melts at 650 is truly a "soft solder". It may contain silver all right, but unfortunately the info is very misleading to the general public. Next, I suppose they will be advertising room temperature solder. We call it glue.

Standard radio solder, tin and lead, melts at around 700 degrees and will generally hold a few small wires together if they aren't stressed. The whole point of brazing is to get a strong mechanical joint and that strength comes at a price - you have to heat the metal sufficiently to get that bond.
Lazarus

Let's not confuse brazing with soldering. Brazing is done with brass and does require higher temperatures than solder, even silver solder.

Silver solder would easily provide a strong enough bond to retain a plunger tube, not that I'm recommending it as a method of attaching one. Staking, done well, is plenty good enough for that. Keyword "done well".

[niemi24s]

They're still made, but because lead based solders have been banned from plumbing work, you won't find them at places like Home Depot. Kester, Ersin MultiCore, Chemtronics and others still make them, but you may have to get them at an electronic or industrial supply.

Kester and Ersin used to make a bewildering variety of soft solders and have had good luck with both Kester Jeweler's Solder and a similar product called "Tix". There's even an Indium based solder that will reportedly stick to glass!

Steels a very difficult to soft solder, and surface preparation is the key to a good strong bond. Tinning the surfaces to be joined with a powdered flux containing Cadmium [gasp!] really helps, but lotsa luck finding that stuff!

[David Rose]

Lazarus, I just got your tube soldered on. To give it a bit of extra strength, I sorta tapered the solder up into that grooved area above it. And it tapers down onto where the stock panels use to fit. Did you need me to cut the hole back through the middle of the tube? I'm having trouble locating the original point to start the drill. My metal detector doesn't seem to be able to find the steel in there. I know it was there when I started. I think it's ready to go other than that. I wasn't going to charge you, but that roll of solder was expensive! Can I be of any more assistance?

David

[Iron bottom]

There are soft solders that will hold a plunger tube on. Just make sure the temp of the active range of the flux matches the melting point of the solder. If you don't want solder on something, wipe off the excess flux before you heat, then heat and wipe again before applying solder. Don't heat flux and let it run all over areas you don't want solder on. Solder will not bond where there is no flux. Now cleaning the site the plunger tube sits is gonna be a problem, but not insurmountable, and I have no idea if flux would remove that much oxidation on a blue gun. Also, don't try to use 1/8" solder on a part that small. Beat it flat with a hammer so you can apply the right amount. Myself, I would get a flux and powdered solder combination of about 400 degrees melting point, coat every surface I want solder on, put the parts together, wipe off the excess and put it in an oven to heat. Would you like a slice of this cake? :D

[niemi24s]

Would a MIM carbon steel part be any more difficult to soft solder than a regular (?) carbon steel part (both alloys having the same composition)?

[bophi]

Hi-Temp Hi-Force 44 is 38,000 psi at 650 degrees. That is not enough to warp parts or effect bluing, if carefully cleaned up. I've not tried it, just going by the ads. I'll bet it would work. I would still prefer crimp which is relatively easy to do.

David
they make a grade 5 silver solder that melts at a low temp. but i would not use it on any of my guns, if i could not crimp it i would tig weld a tack on both areas.then buff it smooth.

[Iron bottom]

I don't think mim would pose a problem, NIEMI. There are lead solders available. 50/50 and 95/5 are still around. They are not allowed to be used with potable water systems, but can be used in hot water heating systems, etc., in NC. I imagine some areas have outlawed them altogether, though.

[niemi24s]

Thankfully, there are some electronics soldering operations where lead-free solders are totally unsuitable. As long as this situation remains, I suspect (hope, really) tin-lead solders will remain available, even though a bit difficult to find.

Twenty years from now, you'll probably need a license to buy it! Cheers.

[David Rose]

Brownell's "Force 44" silver bearing solder is used a lot to attach front sight ramps on rifles and sometimes rear sights. Of course, there is a lot more bearing surface there than on the tube that we are talking about. I've not used the newer high strength stuff that they started offering. I just got some in and plan to work with it a bit. I think it is 10% silver and 90% zinc. 38K psi sounds pretty good. That tube has what? about 3/8 of a square inch of surface? That would take 14,000 pounds of pressure to remove if bonded well. And then there are the posts to resist movement up/down/fore/aft.

It is common to locate a ramp, scribe around it, clean what is inside the marks, then tin barrel and ramp and attach. Most fluxes will take bluing right off so it can get a bit touchy.

This is an interesting discussion, but the part was designed to crimp on, and crimping is easy. I would 10 to 1 rather drill and tap a rifle barrel for a ramp than to solder one on. Other than the one that I did for Lazarus :D above, I will stay with crimping.

On the other hand, I've staked hundreds of stock bushings in frames. But fear of thread damage is making me rethink that one. I've pulled a few successfully that were crimped, but one day I will need to remove one that is crimped more heavily... :scared:

David

[Greg Derr]

+1 David

Done right the crimped PT works well. I see maybe two a year that are loose, that is mostly factory guns with a light crimp- probably built on a Friday afternoon.

On the Caspian integral PT I don't use them, it makes final sanding/polishing of the sides much more difficult.

On grip bushing I'ld love to have the brands Rockwell tested, I find the hard ones increase the chance of stripping the frame if removed improperly. Currently the Wilson/Brown's work well.

Greg

[Lazarus]

Let's not confuse brazing with soldering. Brazing is done with brass and does require higher temperatures than solder, even silver solder.


I agree. The term brazing CAN apply to the use of brass as the joining metal, but it does not HAVE to. It is the process, not necessarily the material. Just like soft soldering does not HAVE to include lead, brazing is a joining process somewhere between soft soldering and welding, and it does not HAVE to include brass. Specific brazing temperatures that apply to silver brazing are between 1200 to 1600 degrees. These are the temperatures that are required to achieve proper bonding and high strength using silver.

For instance, joining 2 pieces of steel using brass can be be called brazing. Joining the same 2 pieces of steel with silver "solder" is correctly called silver brazing because the temperatures required are similar. That would refer to the temperature that the base metals must assume before a certain type of bonding can be achieved.

Soldering produces a relatively weak surface bonding. The brazing process allows a dissimilar metal to bond to the base metals. Brazing does not require the base metals to become molten, only the brazing medium. Welding, on the other hand requires the base metals and the weld filler (usually an alloy similar to the base metals) to all become molten.

These days, with the advent of high tech welding equipment such as TIG, a talented welder can place a tiny dab of weld material practically anywhere without bringing the entire base metal part to welding temperature. These guys spend a good many years practicing to achieve this level of skill and usually don't advertise in the yellow pages. But that's another story.

The plunger tube is a text-book example of where staking is the best possible solution. Why fight with physics? Staking works, and doesn't require refinishing. Failures can easily be traced to incorrect staking methods. A good example is the front sights on current production Colts. They are all coming loose! The tenon slots have not been beveled, so there is nowhere for the staking metal to go. A brilliant cost-cutting step! These failures do not prove that staking is unreliable. It just proves that you can always find a way to do anything incorrectly.

Lazarus

[Hawkmoon]

I think there are no lead based solders made anymore.
There are, but they aren't allowed for use in plumbing for anything related to potable water because of the fear that lead will leach out and cause brain damage when you wash your hands. :)