Israeli Draw

[Amontgomery]

Speaking with a friend, he introduced me to an alternative to a cocked and locked carry draw. He called it the Israeli Draw and as he described it, it was a draw from mag inserted, slide foreward, round not in the chamber, and as the gun was brought out of the holster the support hand did a motion much like an old west "fanning" technique that racked the slide, chambered a round, cocked the hammer and made the firearm ready to fire. Has anyone seen or performed this technique?

Personally it seems like too much could go wrong, and what can go wrong.
Its still an interesting technique that would be interesting to see performed correctly.

[gottripletsNC]

Takes a lot of practice. It is called the Israeli Draw, as the Israelis came up with it.
Yes, there are lots of things that can go wrong. If you slingshot the slide, and there is even the slightest thing wrong with the sear, it could have hammer follow for just one.

I used to carry like that, but not now.

[Amontgomery]

Do you need special rear sights to grip the slide better?

[gottripletsNC]

The idea is that in a situation when you need to draw, then you lose all fine motor skills, so you don't grab the rear of the slide. You grab the whole slide with your whole hand, and pull it backwards. You grab wherever your hand lands, you just want to get as much hand on the gun. So sights don't matter.

[Amontgomery]

Why would it be any better than cocked and locked?

[gottripletsNC]

Its not, but there is a group of people that are scared by the thought a gun with the hammer cocked. They are the ones that aren't very knowledgeable about the 1911. So to appease some imbecilic ideas, the Israelis came up with a way to carry a 1911 with an empty chamber. They have pretty much abandoned the idea, because that half a second is still a disadvantage.

[joffe]

Its not, but there is a group of people that are scared by the thought a gun with the hammer cocked. They are the ones that aren't very knowledgeable about the 1911. So to appease some imbecilic ideas, the Israelis came up with a way to carry a 1911 with an empty chamber. They have pretty much abandoned the idea, because that half a second is still a disadvantage.
I read that they did this because they issued several types of handguns, and wanted a universal manual of arms to teach their conscripts. I have yet to read anything about it that ascribes any virtue to it other than that 'the Israelis do it'.

Either way saying that it's 'Israeli' makes it sound a lot more tactical and high-tech as long as you don't have to qualify that describer.

[MSgt G]

Let's hope they have access to both hands! It might hurt a little bit trying this with your teeth!

[Amontgomery]

That it would.

I can't really see what makes a cocked and locked 1911 so "scary". Even if the thumb safety happens to be disengaged by clothing or an occasional love handle the gun won't go off unless both the grip safety is engaged and the trigger is pulled, and since most holsters cover the trigger guard up to the grip. I guess its just ignorance.

[gottripletsNC]

I guess its just ignorance.

Maybe, but I think its more in the line of being close-minded. People go around with pre-conceived notions, and are prejudgemental about things. It takes 7 good things to overcome the results of a bad thing. And a gun used safely doesn't make good news, so only the bad stuff is out there. And its gonna take ALOT of good stuff to overcome the bad reputation that guns have.
And most people, me included, must be convinced once we have pre-concieved notion about something.

[Amontgomery]

I definitely agree with that. Its not surprising either. Just look at the coverage of the VA Tech incident. Its to the tune of ban guns ignoring the fact that it took place in a gun free zone where one man or woman carrying concealed could have stopped the whole thing.

[TriumphGT6]

I wonder if the "Israeli draw" was an answer to the Tokarev pistol, which had no safety at all in its original configuration. Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT-33.

(The Tokarevs we see in the West do have thumb safety, because our market demands it.)

[mwink822]

Also something to take into consideration is that in a stressful situation i.e. a situation where you would have to use your weapon for it's intended purposes, you may not have the presence of mind to remember to chamber a round so that the weapon can be brought into action. I for one carry my 1911 cocked and locked with the thumb safety engaged. Carrying condition one lets me just draw aim and fire. It's faster and it allows the added advantage of one additional round.

[RickB]

It's not a faster or better way to draw a gun, and since the gun is unloaded and needs two hands to get into action, it's certainly not a replacement for cocked 'n' locked. The reasoning behind the technique was that there were so many kinds of pistols in Israel, and everyone had to be efficiently trained, they decided to choose a universal method of getting a handgun in action. It doesn't matter if the gun is DA or SA, or if it has a decocker, or safety, or not, etc. Any auto pistol can be employed using the Israeli draw.

[mwink822]

^^ This is true, however, it does make for a slight delay in getting the weapon into action. WHen I took my CCW course one of the instructors suggested this mode of carry.

[kcshooter]

Israeli Draw is just another way of saying Condition 3. And I'm pretty sure even the Israelis have abandoned the method now.

[gottripletsNC]

Israeli Draw is just another way of saying Condition 3. And I'm pretty sure even the Israelis have abandoned the method now.

Thats what I understand too.

[horse 91-A1]

Let's hope they have access to both hands! It might hurt a little bit trying this with your teeth!

Interesting you should bring this up. I was practicing one hand with a new G17 and used my boot heel to rack the slide. Well, the joys of plastic is the rear sights don't have the shear strength of steel, which is exactly what happened with the plastic sight. :)

One thing to remember if using both hands, it's easier to push with grip hand while pulling back with off hand - push/pull.

Bob

[gfavaron]

This is all a bit academic. The Israelis dropped the C3 carry because they dropped the 1911. The IDF today is mostly IMI "Jericho" and Glock equipped (and most probably will move to IMI "Baraks" in the future). One would look a bit odd doing the Israeli draw with a Glock.

And I would suggest (without knowing for sure) that the Israelis required their troops to carry in C3 for the same reason that the US military did - safety in shift change unloading and and loading procedures. When one has 50 or a 100 teenaged troops "clearing" 1911s all at once, and eager to get off duty - it is infinitely safer if the guns have no rounds in the chambers to start with. I cannot imagine US or IDF Cdr's being concerned about appearances of cocked hammers etc.

[kcshooter]

Don't they all still have to clear the Glocks and IMI's?

[Soft Walker]

Carrying your 1911 pistol in condition 3 is really condsidered a matter of poor taste, even silly, especially in the U.S.A., regardless of your general situation. If you were actually seen doing people may point at you and laugh. They might even say bad things about you when your not around. If your going to do it, you should do it way out in open country or in the woods or perhaps fishing on by a lake or stream where there is no one to see you doing it. You could do it on the privacy of your own property if you live in a rural area. Otherwise your much better off carrying the way your supposed to carry it - in condition 1 - cocked and locked. I hope that helps. :D

[kcshooter]

No, that doesn't help at all. It isn't poor taste nor laughable to carry in such a manner. I wouldn't carry in cond 3, or advise it, and I would try to explain to those who do carry in condition 3 why I think there is a better way, but I would sure not point and laugh if someone wanted to carry that way. To insult someone for carrying that way is the same as someone who carries in cond 3 saying you are unsafe for carrying in cond 1. It is not a right or wrong, it is a matter of preference. Your post seems to be simply looking to elict a response, and in my opinion, bordelines trolling.

[Hawkmoon]

I read that they did this because they issued several types of handguns, and wanted a universal manual of arms to teach their conscripts. I have yet to read anything about it that ascribes any virtue to it other than that 'the Israelis do it'.
This is the reason I have always heard cited for it. The theory behind it is supposed to be that, because the Israeli Defense Forces used a variety of semi-auto handguns, some with safeties and some without, and with controls in differnt locations, they didn't want to teach their operatives a technique that was valid for one pistol and then have said operative be in the field with a different pistol. So the notion was that carrying on an empty chamber and racking the slide while drawing was about as universal a technique as they could devise.

I also read just recently that the Israelis have now moved away from this technique, but as I don't remember where I saw that, I won't say that it was an "authentic source."

[DR505]

I would sure hate to take the first hit in either arm and try and get into action with an empty pistol! I'd really be surprised if this is still SOP in Israel.

My department trains you to draw and shoot one handed (with either hand) to simulate an injury. We also train to clear a malfunction one handed. I have racked the slide with the back of a boot heel, with a pants leg (friction), and several other methods. I would prefer to use none of them, but you have to play the hand you are dealt.

[Mastiff]

I wonder if the "Israeli draw" was an answer to the Tokarev pistol, which had no safety at all in its original configuration. Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT-33.

(The Tokarevs we see in the West do have thumb safety, because our market demands it.)

The Tok uses the half cock as a safety. Draw the pistol and pull the half-cocked hammer to full cock. It makes more sense than this ridiculous idea.

[dogdollar]

I'm a lefty, and usually carry in an OWB holster at about eight o'clock, cocked and locked. Most of the right handers I know carry at about three or four o'clock, cocked and locked.
Only if I was carrying at High Noon would I consider Condition Three.
:lm:

[Arritt315]

At the risk of making this thread about condition carry, I don't see where it's "wrong" to carry condition 3 and use the isreali draw. We don't need to discuss all the safeties on the 1911, I use and trust them, but the gun IS safer when there is no round in the chamber. The safeties on any firearm are mechanical, and yes, they are tested and set up to be redundant so they will not fail, but there's always a chance, even if it's a small one.

As for the OP, I think a person who practices this draw can be just almost as fast as a person who carries C1. Now the question is if "almost" is fast enough :)

[Rich-D]

This Israeli draw was devised as a result of the early Israeli forces having numerous makes and models in their handgun arsenal. In the interest of safety, as well as devising a single training method that worked with the vast variety of handguns that their forces used, the Mossad Draw was devised as a training method.

When I spoke with an former Israeli Commando last year, he informed me that his units weapons were always loaded and ready for action. And that even when the Mossad Method was the standing order, that no one he knew abided by the order. As the danger from opponents, far out weighted the danger of an accidental discharge.

Having my arm pinned twice in conflicts where I drew and fired. And in a third incident, being hit behind the head, kicked and pummelted on the ground by 5 assailants. My weak arm injured and under me. I find it both necessary and prudent to have the ability to draw and be able to fire with one hand.


Rich

[Frank]

... I don't see where it's "wrong" to carry condition 3 and use the isreali draw. ...I think a person who practices this draw can be just almost as fast as a person who carries C1. Now the question is if "almost" is fast enough :)
[1] As Rich-D points out, putting your gun into play reasonably quickly from condition 3 requires two hands, and in an emergency you may not have two hands available.

[2] There's always the possibility the "almost as fast" won't be fast enough. Do you really want to bet that it will be?

DVC

[Arritt315]

Both Frank and Rich make excellent points.

I see the virtue of having your pistol ready to go, and most of the time my carry pistol is. However, for me it depends on the situation.

I was on a hunting trip this past year where I was forced to do alot of walking, climbing, twisting and so on. I get to my stand, see Mr. Deer and take the shot with my rifle. I settled back in for few minutes before I began to track him, felt for my Stainless II and realized the thumb safety was disengaged. I didn't like that. Not that I thought it was about to go off, I just didn't feel good about the safety working itself out of the position I put it in. From then until now, if I know I'm gonna be doing much physical activity like that, the gun stays C3.

I've always felt that having it in C3 and doing an israeli type draw is a much better alternative than not having it at all, even if my weak arm is busted up. I at least have the oportunity to run the gun one handed, which is hard but is possible.

[Rich-D]

Arritt315, It is your decision to carry a firearm in the manner that you chose. However in none of the three incidents I described, would there have been the time or opportunity to rack an unload gun with one hand.

For those who do not feel comfortable with Condition one. I suggest a revolver, a DAO, a DAO/SA or a 1911 loaded chamber, hammer down. Which is a bit of a risk lowering the hammer. However, I would take that risk, rather then take the bigger risk of carrying an unloaded gun.


Rich

[Soft Walker]

FM 23-35
WAR DEPARTMENT
BASIC FIELD MANUAL
AUTOMATIC PISTOL
CALIBER .45
M1911 AND M1911A1

Page 18

l. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore-
seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in
the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use
of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and
locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra maga-
zines should be carried fully loaded.
m. When the pistol is carried In the holster loaded,
cocked, and locked the butt should be rotated away from
the body when drawing the pistol In order to avoid displacing
the safety lock.
:D

[Hawkmoon]

The Tok uses the half cock as a safety. Draw the pistol and pull the half-cocked hammer to full cock. It makes more sense than this ridiculous idea.
It may seem "ridiculous" to you, from the perspective of whatever pistol you carry and are familiar with, but since the IDF is generally considered to be among the best-trained and deadliest group of operatives in the world, and this is the technique they taught their operatives for many years, I don't think you can claim any real consensus in it's being "ridiculous." They had their reasons, and for them it made sense.

You might also be interested to know that trained IDF operatives can execute the "Israeli draw" and bring a cocked handgun on target faster than most people can draw a 1911 and flip the thumb safety off.

[Frank]

...I was on a hunting trip this past year where I was forced to do alot of walking, climbing, twisting and so on. I get to my stand, see Mr. Deer and take the shot with my rifle. I settled back in for few minutes before I began to track him, felt for my Stainless II and realized the thumb safety was disengaged. I didn't like that. Not that I thought it was about to go off, I just didn't feel good about the safety working itself out of the position I put it in. From then until now, if I know I'm gonna be doing much physical activity like that, the gun stays C3...
A while ago I went to Gunsite for a five day rifle class (http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=13272& ). It was moderately strenuous. We did a lot of shooting and a lot of walking. We were up and down a lot -- quickly assuming field firing positions like prone or kneeling and recovering from those position. We were practicing snap shots starting with a slung rifle. There were quite a few fairly vigorous exercises. Throughout the class, I carried a cocked and locked 1911 in a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2 on the first day and a Galco Avenger for the remainder of the class. The safety stayed engaged and the pistol was perfectly retained.

You might look at adjusting the on safe position on your gun more positive so that it requires more pressure to take it off safe. You can do that by replacing the plunger spring. If that's not enough, you can slightly re-contour the safety cam or even cut a small detent in it. You might also want to think about changing holsters.

DVC

[gfavaron]

I would suspect that presenting a condition 3 1911 has acquired the nickname, "Israeli Draw" only fairly recently. After all there was no Israel prior to 1948, and the US military had carried millions of 1911's through two wars and a dozen skirmishes by then. Condition 3 was mandatory in many units and for most guardmounts. Again, it had nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with safety.

The old gun has been around a long time, and has been carried and used in many ways for many purposes.

[Arritt315]

When the pistol is carried In the holster loaded,
cocked, and locked the butt should be rotated away from
the body when drawing the pistol In order to avoid displacing
the safety lock.:D

:butthead: Thanks. I'll be sure to refer to the manual before I leave the house again.


Rich-D, I'm sure you give very good advice, but the original post was about the merits of the israeli draw, not about which weapon you'd recommend or another condition debate. I think we all figured out you're not a fan of anything other than C1 carry :)

I agree with Hawkmoon, anyone who practices the motion of this draw (and good lord willing, doesn't have his weak arm injured) can be on target as fast if not faster than someone carrying C1. If this draw is done correctly, there is no wasted motion.

[Rich-D]

Rich-D, I'm sure you give very good advice, but the original post was about the merits of the israeli draw, not about which weapon you'd recommend or another condition debate. I think we all figured out you're not a fan of anything other than C1 carry :)


I do believe that you expanded the discussion with the below post! As well as other members who posted their opinions on carry conditions in this thread.

Furthermore, The vast majority of members posting on this thread would fit the description of being a fan of C1. Your statement was "Now the question is if "almost" is fast enough" was responded to. Most folks in here permit a bit of courteous leeway on posts. And, especially so in matters that are a question of life and death.

My opinion and concern, was addressed to all members and guests who may read this thread and find themselves leery of carrying in C1. You may have initiated the thread, however thousands of members and guests have access to this thread. My statement in a paragraph separate from my response directed to you was prefaced by. "For those who do not feel comfortable with Condition one." You are free to post your opinion without censure. And I mine!

At the risk of making this thread about condition carry, I don't see where it's "wrong" to carry condition 3 and use the isreali draw. We don't need to discuss all the safeties on the 1911, I use and trust them, but the gun IS safer when there is no round in the chamber. The safeties on any firearm are mechanical, and yes, they are tested and set up to be redundant so they will not fail, but there's always a chance, even if it's a small one.

As for the OP, I think a person who practices this draw can be just almost as fast as a person who carries C1. Now the question is if "almost" is fast enough :)

[DR505]

You might also be interested to know that trained IDF operatives can execute the "Israeli draw" and bring a cocked handgun on target faster than most people can draw a 1911 and flip the thumb safety off.

Given equal training and practice with both systems, I'll bet C1 beats ID every time.

[Arritt315]

I do believe that you expanded the discussion with the below post! As well as other members who posted their opinions on carry conditions in this thread.

Furthermore, The vast majority of members posting on this thread would fit the description of being a fan of C1. Your statement was "Now the question is if "almost" is fast enough" was responded to. Most folks in here permit a bit of courteous leeway on posts. And, especially so in matters that are a question of life and death.

My opinion and concern, was addressed to all members and guests who may read this thread and find themselves leery of carrying in C1. You may have initiated the thread, however thousands of members and guests have access to this thread. My statement in a paragraph separate from my response directed to you was prefaced by. "For those who do not feel comfortable with Condition one." You are free to post your opinion without censure. And I mine!

Looks like I hit a nerve, for that I appologize Rich. I don't want to censure you, I just felt your recommendation of which pistols people should carry was little far off topic. I don't feel that I strayed too far from the topic, but I could be wrong. Bottom line is, the moderator didn't step in so we're probably both wrong :)

I would have to believe that somebody has timed and compared the ID to other methods of presentation. It would be interesting to see the real world data from that. Without a test like that, it's pretty useless of us to sit here and debate the speed of the presentation.

[Hawkmoon]

Given equal training and practice with both systems, I'll bet C1 beats ID every time.
Given equal practice and training, I would agree with you. That wasn't the point of my statement. The point -- the ONLY point -- was that the Israeli Draw can be executed very quickly. As a practical matter, I will readily concede that most "civilian" concealed carry licensees won't put in anywhere near enough practice to achieve that level of speed. However, most CCW holders probably won't put in enough practice with Condition 1 carry to achieve real speed in presentation, either.

Personally, I practice and carry with Condition 1. But ... I only carry 1911s (except for the occasional warm day when I stick a Colt Pony in my pocket, but that has NO safety so there nothing lost) so I don't have the Israelis' concerns about shifting from one weapon platform to another.

[Rich-D]

I found this video which depicts Israeli professionals utilizing the Israeli draw. Which should be of interest to both sides of the issue!

http://defensereview.com/1_31_2004/kareen.mov



Rich

[Frank]

Very interesting. The one guy, just a little past mid-point I believe, wearing the dark, open shirt over the teeshirt, was very fast. But I think he would have been even faster presenting from condition 1.

He had brought the gun to eye level when he racked it. The racking of the slide was an extra step. He would not have had to rack the slide if the gun had been in condition 1. He would have been shooting once the gun reached eye level if the gun had been in condition 1/


DVC

[John]

I had to delete and/or edit some posts from this thread in order to bring it back to course.

Gentlemen, please remember that this is a friendly exchange of ideas. Everyone is free to post his opinion, and if we do not like it, it's time to use our discretion. As you all know, you may attack the idea but not the person expressing it.

So, back to course, and I agree with Frank. In a life or death situation, any extra moves are to be eliminated. Being fluid is certainly fast (and those people who use the ID train extensively in it), but eliminating extra steps in one's presentation is always faster.

[gfavaron]

As an interesting aside on the Israeli Draw, it would be advantageous carry the pistol cocked and unlocked (with an empty chamber) so as to make it faster and easier to rack the slide and charge the chamber.

In that arrangement, the outside appearance of the weapon would be the same as condition one and have no PR advantage in open carry.

I am sure this is not the most useful discussion I have read here, but it is certainly interesting. It is just plain astonishing how much heat is generated by the topic. :-)

[Arritt315]

I am sure this is not the most useful discussion I have read here, but it is certainly interesting. It is just plain astonishing how much heat is generated by the topic. :-)

I've noticed the same thing, and not just on this forum. Do a google search and you'll find alot of other boards where even the mere metion of C1 vs. C3 causes the thread to sprial downward and out of control. I simply don't understand it. :confused:

[DR505]

I'm with you Hawkmoon...