cracked frame

[LFN]

on another thread I was asked for details so here it is, sorry but the picture was hard to get, the crack is in the frame directly below the T in match and about the same length as the T,the other mark near the end of the crack (angling to the left) is just a light scratch in bluing from my calipers as I have been trying to monitor its progress. when I first noticed it it was about half this length and I thought it was just a scratch. this gun was bought new in late 98, it has had alot of use but not abused. at least 90% of the time it wears a shock buff.

I returned the gun to colt on the 30th of march, I called on the 11th of april to inquire about it and was told it was being returned without repair, she read me the notes (I assume from computer records) gun altered outside of factory, not a safty issue see letter, she did not have access to the letter. I got the gun back on the 14th, the letter states "the crack that you refer to does not pose a safety problem to you and you may continue firing the weapon as is" " as a firearm becomes older, cracks like this may occur from stress in non-critical areas depending on the type of ammunition used and how often it is shot." " if at any time the crack becomes larger or other changes to your firearm's appearance/performance, please don't hesitate to return it to us immediately for evaluation"

Note: the only alteration of the gun is different sights.

I feel colt side stepped the issue they didn't say they would ever repair it and they didn't say they won't, the crack has been getting larger that is why I sent it to them, How big does the crack have to be before it is big enough.

The top of the dust cover where the crack starts is not milled smooth but under magnification looks serrated, most people with knowledge of metal know that stress cracks are likly to develope in areas of sharp corners or areas rough such as I discribed, that is why I feel this is a manufactures defect and should be addressed.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/LFN/150-5081_IMG.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

The concept that metal tends to crack in NON-stress areas (presumably while NOT cracking in stress areas?) seems a bit bizarre to me. If you lay a chunk of steel on a table and don't stress it, it can lie there for ten thousand years and it won't crack.

I think you should get General Keyes' full name, and when you receive the letter write to him, with a copy of the photo (and maybe one of the inside of the frame to show that it is a crack and not a scratch), and ask him to stand behind his company's product.

BTW, they probably regard the shock buff as a "modification," and that's probably what they are hanging their excuse on, not the sights.

[John]

I agree with Hawkmoon, steel does not crack by itself. Also, if a crack has developed in a non-stress area (as they call it), what makes them believe that there aren't other scratces somewhere where the gun is actually stressed?

If Colt was at all serious about that, they should at least have done an X-Ray of the pistol's frame to see if that is indeed a crack. And what does it mean "modified"? The sights can't be considered a modification related to this crack, that's hogwash.

I think a letter to someone high in the hierarchy is called for.

Rgds

[bangbang]

Steel may not crack by itself, but the raw material may have had internal defect(s) when made. It could be that the crack was in part of the raw material and when the framed was machined, part of the crack is where you see it now.

its too bad that Colt wont do anything. You dont say if you got it New or used and i didnt read the other post you mentioned. You can try and see if they will replace the frame only.

If youre really concerned, you can have the frame xrayed, but i dont know if the xrays will show much. i believe there are some dyes that will penetrate the crack too, but dont know how they will affect the finish.

[LFN]

I bought the gun new, I was smart enough to remove the shock buff before returning the gun to colt so they couldn't just blame it on that.

I did a seach on another forum and found that cracks in this area are not uncommon although the majority of them were in lightweight frames, strange though most were colts.

opinion varied from the crack is nothing to worry about and will most likely stop growing, to stories of dust covers breaking off completly. only one person claimed to be getting a new frame from colt although most involved guns made before colt started their lifetime service warranty.

while I have no intentions of ever selling this gun, my biggest loss is in the value of the gun. nobody would pay book price for a gun with a cracked frame. so to anyone else the gun would only be worth parts or a highly discounted shooter.

my opinion is that if this is a known weak area of the frame (which it appears to be), and colt has done nothing to correct the problem (there has to be a way to prevent cracking in this area), than they should have to honor their lifetime service agreement.

[1911Tuner]

Hi guys,

The crack in the photo is fairly common place for a 1911 if it's had a lot of rounds through it or there isn't sufficient clearance between the top of the dust cover and the bottom of the slide rail. The reason is that there's a sharp corner inside the cover at the junction of the frame rails that results in a stress riser....which eventually can lead to a crack in an area of impact or
shear stress. What happens is that during the impact of recoil, the thin dust cover flexes upward slightly and makes light contact with the slide. The combination of shock and shear forces cause the crack to appear at the weakest point. You can limit the stresses by replacing the recoil spring
with a fresh one about every 2,000 rounds or so. Using a heavier recoil spring isn't a cure, and can lead to other problems. 16 pounds for a
5-inch gun is a gracious plenty, and 18 for Commander-length. A
shock buffer is also an option if the gun functions reliably with a buffer...
which some don't. Most 5-inch guns will...Many Commanders won't.
Buffers shouldn't be used in guns shorter than Commander-length, and I don't recommend them at all in a carry gun. Use'em for range work and practice...but take'em back out if you depend on the gun for your life.

The crack isn't in a critical place. They're usually self-limiting and will
stop once the stress is relieved or as they progress into a thicker cross-section of the frame I have several beaters with that same crack on both sides that have been fired weekly with no ill effects since the crack appeared. To limit the cracks, I lightly *****-punched the terminus and check-drilled the crack with a small drill...something on the order of .050 inch.
If the hole is an issue, you can have it tig welded and the frame refinished,
but it's an unnecessary step as it doesn't really add to the strength of the
frame and can actually weaken it if the welder doesn't control the heat carefully.


Luck!

[bearandoldman]

Tuner the old machinist in you shows, thats and old trick to drill a small hole a the end of the crack and the crack will not get any longer

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner & Len:

I was going to suggest some paint and.... :D

(I think knowing that the crack location isn't critical is the key here.)

Pet the Bear for me!

Here's a picture of the Tasmanian Devil my daughter dumped on me on 2 January. I'm busy writing her out of my will.

http://tinypic.com/4ij5ex

(Actually, he's a Jack Russell, about six months now - couple months younger when this picture was taken. If you guys get PARADE as a Sunday Supplement, check out the picture on the inside back cover of today's - 04/17/2005 - issue. Sammy probably could do that....)

Regards,

[John]

Sweet little guy! I love him!

[SMMAssociates]

John:

I'd offer to ship him to you, but I think it'd be an Act of War.... :eek:

He's in the hall now looking for something else to chew.

(Sammy's not allowed in my office. Neither is my wife....)

Regards,

[John]

John:

I'd offer to ship him to you, but I think it'd be an Act of War.... :eek:

He's in the hall now looking for something else to chew.

(Sammy's not allowed in my office. Neither is my wife....)

Regards,
I understand about your wife, but why not the dog? I mean chewing is normal at this age, a rawhide bone would keep him busy for hours. I wish the same trick would work on my wife!

[1911Tuner]

Go to your local pet supply and ask for "Bitter Apple". Spritz your non-chewables lightly. When the pup puts his mouth on it once, he won't likely
put his mouth on that particular object ever again...Non-toxic, and great stuff, but be prepared to LYAO at the pup's reaction to it. :cool:

[SMMAssociates]

I understand about your wife, but why not the dog? I mean chewing is normal at this age, a rawhide bone would keep him busy for hours. I wish the same trick would work on my wife! John:

You've never had a Jack Russell, have you? A rawhide bone last about as long as it takes for him to remember that they're also fun to play "fetch" with.... :eek:

(I can hand my wife a sheaf of coupons from the Sunday paper to quiet her down for a while, but then she heads for the store to use them and....)

At least she still believes that guns multiply in the safe :D .

(Sammy thinks about everything is a chew toy. Good thing it's only been a few years since we practiced kid-proofing the house. Becka's 19....)

Regards,

[John]

LoL!!!

Thank God, that's one habbit the twins do not have, chewing!

And it's a pity we do not have coupons here, that way I could get my wife off my head some times!

[SMMAssociates]

John:

I forget how old the twins are, but if they're not chewing on things, they will. Becka bit an end table....

Still, kids generally don't do nearly as much of that as puppies to.

Coupons drive me nuts. Sherri spends way too much time on them v.s. the return and I'm not convinced that they don't raise the prices of groceries enough to negate their value. But it does keep her out of my hair :D .

Regards,

[LFN]

Okay, another question, I missed it before sending the gun back to colt, (was too focused on the dust cover I guess) but I just discovered 2 cracks on the aft end of the trigger guard, in the area where metal is recessed behind the trigger guard (enhansed model). the trigger guard is cracked up each side and across the bottom from the aft corners of trigger guard at about a 45 degree angle to the rear. the cracks don't meet up yet, due to the angle they cover only about half way, if they had gone straight across they would have met up already.

can anyone shed some light on this problem, I suspect this would be limited to the enhansed model since the regular version is contoured differently, it appears that the metal got pretty thin just behind the trigger guard. think colt would consider this a non-critical area?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/LFN/frame4-18.jpg

[1911Tuner]

Howdy LFN,

Your call on the cracks resulting from the thin cross-section in the area is correct. Those could be a problem due to the area being under high shear stress under recoil. The cracks won't likely self-terminate until they
get into the magazine catch tunnel...and continuing to fire the gun could
allow the frame to start cracking on the other side and progress into the grip frame.

I've often wondered about that undercut trigger guard, and suspected that the material would be too thin for long-term durability. This is the first one that's come to my attention that has cracked, though. I'd be willin' to bet that there have been more, though if it was a common problem, we'd likely have heard of it by now. A reasonable expectation would be that Colt replace the frame. Keep us posted on what kind of satisfaction you get there. They do monitor the forums, and hopefully Cindy is watching this one.
I've had very good results from working with Colt's warranty and repair division, and if you call them, she is the rep to ask for.

Luck!

[LFN]

great news :D / bad news :( , I had sent colt the picture I posted here and asked if it was worth sending the gun back to them again. Got a reply today, send it back and they are going to replace the frame. however they may not have another run of gold cup frames for 60 to 90 days. It will be worth the wait.

Anyone know if they are still producing the gold cup with the under cut behind the trigger guard? recent pictures I've seen it didn't look like it had the undercut, just wondering.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

[stans]

That receiver is FUBAR and Colt needs to replace it. That's the first cracked undercut trigger guard that I have seen. I think there is just something seriously wrong with this particular receiver.