Three Point Jam Issue and Possible Solution **UPDATE**

[cmparrish]

I just purchased a Kimber Team Match II a few days ago and took it to the range today to break it in. So far I am pretty happy with the pistol. I had to reduce the pre-travel on the trigger a tad cause the trigger rattled a bit (nothing unusal, two of my other Kimbers did the same thing). Accuracy was good (shot better then me) and the trigger should be great after little break in. It feels about 4lb ish and a hint of intermittent creep which I feel will go away with time.

Now for my issue. Out of 150 rounds, I experienced about 4 three point jams. The interesting thing was it was ONLY when dropping the slide via the slide stop with a fully loaded mag. During live fire it NEVER jammed. The failure occured with a couple of different mags so I don't think it's mag related. When the jams occured, the round appeared to be on the breach face but the rim was stuck below the extractor. Ejection seemed to be a little eratic too. I wasn't totally paying attention, but I did notice the spent rounds flying to the right and behind me, beside me and in front of me. It seemed some flew out with force and others just popped out next to me. It seemed inconsistent.

Based on this, my theory was that the extractor had too much tension on it. When I returned home, I field stripped and tested the extractor's tension. I tested the extractor tension using the "round under the extractor shake test". The round was fairly hard to push under the extractor and no matter how hard I shook the the slide, the round would not fall out. I compared this to another Kimber I have that functions 100% so far and the shake test would take about 2 to 3 shakes to dislodge the round.

I tweaked the extractor to mach the approximate tension on the known good Kimber and reassembled. The pistol now actual feels like it loads smoother from releasing from a slide lock so it appears I may have solved the issue by tweaking the extractor tension.

I picked up a couple of boxes of .45 this afternoon and will test agan tomorrow at the range. My question is, does my problem, troubleshooting, and solution make sense or am I way off base?

Thanks for your help.

Chris

** UPDATE **
After testing today after extractor tweaking, I am still having the issue. Again it's never on live fire and only when dropping from slide lock and very intermittent. I did approx. 145 drops from slide lock today and only had 3 jams. Only difference today was it looks like the round is getting under the extractor but getting bound up in the chamber from being at a too high of an angle or some other imperfection in the chamber.

I briefly examined the chamber but didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I'll take a closer look this weekend. I'm thinking about switching to an 18 or 18.5 pound recoil spring to see of that solves the issue.

Any other suggestions would be great.

Chris

[cmparrish]

I took a few shoots of the jam.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/KimberTeamMatchJam3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/KimberTeamMatchJam2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/KimberTeamMatchJam1.jpg

[Bud White]

When it does it take a piece of wood and gently smack the end of the barrel and see if it will chamber.. of course only with the gun pointed in a safe direction and finger off the trigger

[wichaka]

That second pic tells a lot.....maybe an optical illusion.......but the extractor is riding up on the case too far, which in turn is putting things in a bind.
Although the third pic looks ok.

From the 3rd pic, it appears the hook is a bit thick. It should measure around .058" I would measure it, and take it down accordingly.
Also the hook depth looks a little suspect as well. Appears to be a little deep, allowing the hook tip to ride on the case......a big no no!

Overall the extractor looks a bit oversize around the hook area.

Is there is a certain round in a mag that does it more than others? Meaning, it's mostly the first round........or the last round etc.

I would check to see what process was use in making the extractor. Knowing Kimber, it's probably MIM.......may be better off getting a better quality extractor.

[Constantine-1911]

Mine has had the SAME kind of jam and the slide was back after it jammed(I locked it back)and the round was still hanging on facing 4 ''oclock''when pointed downrange so you might have a tight extractor, I dont know but that is what I think was PART of the jam, besides cleaning the feed ramp.

[John]

Have you checked your chamber? It may be dirty or a bit on the tight side. Drop in a love round and see how it fits in there.

[Constantine-1911]

Sorry, I am not up to date with all the ''gun lingo''. What is a love round?

[John]

:lm:

That's a ... live round you love a lot!!

That's what happens when you try answering messages too early in the morning. Fingers not obeying the mind.

[Constantine-1911]

Oh......I checked it out by racking the slide and loading it fast and no jam and the chamber is(what I would call)loose or ''right''. It may have been it needed a good clean but if that is so that should be able to fire more rounds than what my aproximate guess was fired out of it before I bought it(1000 or close)than the price of the Kimber might be a little steep, corect me if im wrong but how often would a 1911 jam if hasn't been cleened in a while? Aproxamatly if possible how many rounds(guess).

[John]

Wait a minute. If you rack the slide it loads OK and if you release it from the slide lock it doesn't? Am I correct in that?

As far as cleaning, I guess much more than 1000 rounds are needed before a decent 1911 jams from dirt.

Since this was a used pistol, my suggestion would be:

- change the recoil spring with a new one (16 lbs if this is a 5" barreled pistol).
- clean it well
- lube it well

Then test and come back to us.

[1911Tuner]

Wichaka just nailed this one.

[cmparrish]

When it does it take a piece of wood and gently smack the end of the barrel and see if it will chamber.. of course only with the gun pointed in a safe direction and finger off the trigger

I tried something similiar at the range. I pushed the end of the barrel hard into the range table and it didn't chamber.

[cmparrish]

That second pic tells a lot.....maybe an optical illusion.......but the extractor is riding up on the case too far, which in turn is putting things in a bind.
Although the third pic looks ok.

From the 3rd pic, it appears the hook is a bit thick. It should measure around .058" I would measure it, and take it down accordingly.
Also the hook depth looks a little suspect as well. Appears to be a little deep, allowing the hook tip to ride on the case......a big no no!

Overall the extractor looks a bit oversize around the hook area.

Is there is a certain round in a mag that does it more than others? Meaning, it's mostly the first round........or the last round etc.

I would check to see what process was use in making the extractor. Knowing Kimber, it's probably MIM.......may be better off getting a better quality extractor.

Thanks for the extractor tip. Would a fair test be to remove the extractor and see how it feeds? What replacement extractor would you recommend?

Chris

[cmparrish]

Wait a minute. If you rack the slide it loads OK and if you release it from the slide lock it doesn't? Am I correct in that?

As far as cleaning, I guess much more than 1000 rounds are needed before a decent 1911 jams from dirt.

Since this was a used pistol, my suggestion would be:

- change the recoil spring with a new one (16 lbs if this is a 5" barreled pistol).
- clean it well
- lube it well

Then test and come back to us.

The pistol was new out of the box. The jam only occurs releasing from slide lock. I've not noticed if it does the same from racking the slide.

Chris

[John]

Sorry Chris, I was answering Constantine's message. That's what happens when two people describe a similar malfunction in the same thread, and I have the twins all around making noises.

[1911Tuner]

I tried something similiar at the range. I pushed the end of the barrel hard into the range table and it didn't chamber.

Then it's not a true 3-Point. Likely an extractor problem...tension or hook binding with the bottom of the groove...possibly the guide blocks too narrow.

[wichaka]

For an extractor, I use one of the following three with good results.....

Wilson Bulletproof, Brown Hardcore, or Nowlin Tuff-Stuff.

Brownells has one under their name, I don't know what it's made of......I really need to call them and inquire.

Tuner may have some other suggestions......as if I recall right, he was posting about a standard model that Wilson produces.

[cmparrish]

I found one particular magazine in my collection that I could force the jam by slow hand cycle. I removed the recoil spring so I could better control a manual cycle and could force the jam. I then popped out the extractor and re-tested. Gun cycled fine. No jam. I snapped a few shots of the extractor. Something does not look quite right with it. Thoughts?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/ExtractorPicsTeamMatchII001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/ExtractorPicsTeamMatchII002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/ExtractorPicsTeamMatchII003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/ExtractorPicsTeamMatchII006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/cmparrish/ExtractorPicsTeamMatchII005.jpg

[Hanzo]

thats a wierd looking extractor there. maybe a factory defect

[sethmark]

The assembly guy needs a stronger glasses prescription.

[berkbw]

I don't like the ledge on the back side, and the lack of a bevel on the front side. Get a new one. Hard core, EGW, follow the tuning stickies,

b-

[wichaka]

I've seen a few of those before in Kimbers. They don't make as many of their own parts as they used to. They outsource a lot of their parts, and they hire assemblers not armorers to get them together.......all of this equals quite a bit of heart ache!

Get a new extractor, and your problems should go away.

[cmparrish]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I had sent an email to Kimber about the same time I posted this discussion and they called me this morning. Since they will pick up shipping both ways, I'm going to send it to them. I had two other minor issues I would like them to address as well (slighty heavy trigger/slight trigger creep and mix-matched grip panels). I'll probably still pickup a Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor.

Chris