Best Finish

[TNPara]

I would like to have a blued gun refinished to improve corrosion resistance. I would like to hear from some of you who have had a finish applied and have used the gun for a long period of time to learn about the finish performance (corrosion and durability). I have read about parkerizing, NP3, Stealth Tech, Black-T, Duracoat, and many others all of which claim to be the best. Thanks for any advice you can give.

[anderson3754]

My vote goes to Walter and his Black-T finish.

[TNPara]

Have you personally used a gun with Black_T? If so, I would like to hear more about your experience. I am considering a refinish of a Para Ordnance, but will probably have a hunting rifle finished first so I would spend $400+ on the two. Thanks

[Hill]

The black finish used on later serial number Springfield XD's is called "Melonite" and a member who built himself a georgeous 1911 in a class chose it to finish the pistol.

You've probably seen it on XD's but see it on a fine pistol here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=41041

He linked or said where he had it done as I recall. I thought it was very impressive and good looking on the custom and it's proving durable on the springfields everywhere you look.

[RickB]

Doesn't Melonite require application at extremely high temps; on the order of 1000 degrees? I'd think you wouldn't want to heat a lot of 1911 parts that hot. Hard chrome requires ~700 degrees, and when I sent mine off, it was suggested that I not have the hammer, sear, or extractor plated.

[Hill]

Doesn't Melonite require application at extremely high temps; on the order of 1000 degrees? I'd think you wouldn't want to heat a lot of 1911 parts that hot. Hard chrome requires ~700 degrees, and when I sent mine off, it was suggested that I not have the hammer, sear, or extractor plated.

That I don't know. The user HK24 who owns the pistol shown in the thread I linked above said that he had his pistol Melonited by a Drake's Gun Works at http://www.drakesgunworks.com/index.htm

He didn't say whether Drake's had sent it out for the finish or not.

Sure looks good though, IMO.

[INTrooper4255]

I think that the Melonite or Ion Bond DLC are going to be about the best.

RickB, I think that the temperatures on the Melonite are high, but not that high, but I may be wrong. I saw it posted in another thread a while back, if I can find it, I'll let you know.

[INTrooper4255]

RickB,

You're right, I was thinking that it was a bit lower, but the site below says that it is applied between 900-1075 degrees.

http://www.burlingtoneng.com/wear_resistance.html

[RickB]

Ionbond is applied at about 350 degrees, so there are no concerns about changing the temper of the parts. I don't know how rust-resistant it is, though.

[INTrooper4255]

Ionbond is applied at about 350 degrees, so there are no concerns about changing the temper of the parts. I don't know how rust-resistant it is, though.

I must have been thinking of the Ion Bond, since I have been doing so much reading on both, I'm looking into one or the other for my Kimber Warrior, but I'm torn.

[G34Shooter]

I should be getting my Ionbonded Thunder Ranch tomorrow from John Harrison, I will post pics of it this weekend :D

[INTrooper4255]

I should be getting my Ionbonded Thunder Ranch tomorrow from John Harrison, I will post pics of it this weekend :D

Please do, we definitely want to see it!!

[EchoBravoKilo]

I should be getting my Ionbonded Thunder Ranch tomorrow from John Harrison, I will post pics of it this weekend :D
Wow! Nice Christmas delivery.

[G34Shooter]

Wow! Nice Christmas delivery.

I have to thank John for the Customer Service and prompt service that I know I will enjoy for years to come and my Wife paid for the additions to my TRS, so I have to thank her especially. :D

[G34Shooter]

A few pics posted here... I will post better ones when I get a chance :D
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=41517

[INTrooper4255]

G34Shooter,

That looks really nice! What did Harrison charge just for the Ion Bond?

[G34Shooter]

$300 for that matte finish like mine and I beleive it's $450 for a polished blued look...

[Ping Ping]

$300 for that matte finish like mine and I beleive it's $450 for a polished blued look...ACK! I just blew coffee through my nose.

$450??? :scared:

Just bear in mind guys, hardness is not the only consideration when deciding which finish to choose. While IonBond may be harder than Superman's head, it may or may not provide optimum lubricity. Hardchrome is tried and true, and is of legendary hardness. But, like any chrome, compromise the integrity of the coating and it will rust underneath. Black-T has the ideal, .08 friction coefficient, but will wear only slightly better than the poly-coats. The poly-coats, like KG Guncoat and all it's myriad derivatives; Armor Tuff, Permakote, Duracoat, etc., are slickity-slick, but wear only slightly better than bluing and do not prevent rust once worn. Bear Coat, is slick, slightly tougher than Black-T and, like Black-T, IonBond, etc., keeps preventing rust after significant wear. Is it "best"? Probably not.

In the end, what fits my needs best, may not be the best choice for you. Fortunately we have choices out there and can tailor them to our individual needs and preferences. Thankfully, they are only finishes and, in most cases, can be changed as easily as women change hair color.

[INTrooper4255]

$300 for that matte finish like mine and I beleive it's $450 for a polished blued look...


HOLY COW!!!

I found a place that does it for $250.!!

Here is the link:
http://bobmarvelguns.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=85

[G34Shooter]

HOLY COW!!!

I found a place that does it for $250.!!

Here is the link:
http://bobmarvelguns.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=85

Does that include shipping from Marvel to Ionbond and back? And what is the wait?

[INTrooper4255]

Does that include shipping from Marvel to Ionbond and back? And what is the wait?


I don't have any idea, I have just been searching around for the best prices of Melonite and Ion Bond treating and found his site. I don't doubt that these are good finishes, some of them, maybe the best, but maybe my somewhat worn matte blue gun isn't that bad! :D

[auto45]

but maybe my somewhat worn matte blue gun isn't that bad!

My sentiments exactly. :)

Of course, in the non-1911 world, you can get the Tennifer or Melonite on stock guns for $500-$600...and that includes the gun. ;)

[Ping Ping]

My sentiments exactly. :)

Of course, in the non-1911 world, you can get the Tennifer or Melonite on stock guns for $500-$600...and that includes the gun. ;)OUCH! Thanks for the painful reality check. That $5 can of Krylon is looking better and better.

[auto45]

That $5 can of Krylon is looking better and better.

You just gave away the "trade secret" for the spray finishers. :D

[G34Shooter]

ACK! I just blew coffee through my nose.

$450??? :scared:

Just bear in mind guys, hardness is not the only consideration when deciding which finish to choose. While IonBond may be harder than Superman's head, it may or may not provide optimum lubricity. Hardchrome is tried and true, and is of legendary hardness. But, like any chrome, compromise the integrity of the coating and it will rust underneath. Black-T has the ideal, .08 friction coefficient, but will wear only slightly better than the poly-coats. The poly-coats, like KG Guncoat and all it's myriad derivatives; Armor Tuff, Permakote, Duracoat, etc., are slickity-slick, but wear only slightly better than bluing and do not prevent rust once worn. Bear Coat, is slick, slightly tougher than Black-T and, like Black-T, IonBond, etc., keeps preventing rust after significant wear. Is it "best"? Probably not.

In the end, what fits my needs best, may not be the best choice for you. Fortunately we have choices out there and can tailor them to our individual needs and preferences. Thankfully, they are only finishes and, in most cases, can be changed as easily as women change hair color.



I didn't have time to respond to this earlier but I will give my simplifeid explanation on why I went with Ionbond over Black-T which I was originally going to go with.

Since I take care of my firearms pretty well I figured that it would benefit me to go with a tougher coating over a softer one with better corrosion resistance to decrease wear yet still protect better than blueing. My main carry guns are Glocks ( :scared: ) so I have them to beat up on and I don't need to worry to much about them rusting. Now here's John Harrison's take on Ionbond:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?p=405696

Hi James,

The name of the company is IonBond, LLC in Greensboro, NC. The finish is called "DLC" in the firearms industry. It's hard to accurately do an apples to apples comparison of the finishes, since they are apples, oranges, bananas and grapefruits, but here's my short $0.02 worth.

Bear Coat and Black-T are sorta cousins in that they are sprayed on coatings that are baked at a fairly low temp to cure. So long as their skin is not broken, they have the highest advertised salt spray corrosion test numbers, like a 1,000 hours or such.

Neither Bear Coat or Black-T is particularly resistant to abrasion, when compared to Melonite and DLC, although they are more durable than bluing and Parkerizing, maybe because the coating thickness is greater. Folks will argue that one is appreciably more durable than the other but I just can't see a huge difference myself. My own experience with using Black-T on a bunch of pistols and Bear Coat on a few is the chief difference to me is that often times the Bear Coat was so thick as to require a bit of controlled sanding in concealed places to get the parts back together after being finished in Bear Coat. I've never had an assembly problem with Black-T, even on fairly tight guns.

Melonite and DLC are a more fair comparison to each other as both are really hard on the Rockwell "C" scale. DLC is advertised at 70 to 90. I don't know about Melonite, but would expect a similar test result. Melonite is a surface treatment that is finished off in Black Oxide (think bluing) where DLC is a PVD (physical vapor deposition) coating. From my experience, the black color is more durable on DLC. To me, the big difference between these two is the temperatures involved. Melonite is done at temps around 1200 degrees, give or take; where DLC is done at 400 degrees (just a little hotter than bluing tanks). Aside from the obvious difference in temperatures that the gun is subjected to, this means is that the smaller parts like extractor, pins, screws, sear, hammer, magazine catch, etc. cannot be finished in Melonite. They have to be finished in black oxide or a spray on finish. With DLC, all the parts can be done.

DLC's salt spray test time is claimed at 48 hours. Bluing fails in under 3 hours normally. I don't know what Melonite is rated at.

I did have a lot of problems reassembling pistols treated with Melonite, mostly having to lap fit the slide & frame rails after the treatment. I've had no problems with DLC with reassembly.

Melonite seems to only be available in matte finishes, where DLC can be done on polished surfaces and in my eyes, looks so much like bluing that you can hardly tell.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

[anderson3754]

Have you personally used a gun with Black_T? If so, I would like to hear more about your experience. I am considering a refinish of a Para Ordnance, but will probably have a hunting rifle finished first so I would spend $400+ on the two. Thanks

Sorry for the delayed response. I have not personally used it on my guns However my shooting partner as of 20 yrs has 4 hunting rifles with black t finish and they are nice. He hunts Kodiak Island every year which is all salt water air and the rifles still look brand new. These are Pre 64 Win in McMillan stocks large Cal, just straight up hardcore hunting rifles. If you wish I can give you his phone number. Probably going on 8 yrs for the first one and may be 5 years on the last one done. He's one of these guys price is not a factor, performance of his equipment is his main priority.

[TNPara]

Sorry for the delayed response. I have not personally used it on my guns However my shooting partner as of 20 yrs has 4 hunting rifles with black t finish and they are nice. He hunts Kodiak Island every year which is all salt water air and the rifles still look brand new. These are Pre 64 Win in McMillan stocks large Cal, just straight up hardcore hunting rifles. If you wish I can give you his phone number. Probably going on 8 yrs for the first one and may be 5 years on the last one done. He's one of these guys price is not a factor, performance of his equipment is his main priority.

Anderson3754,

Thanks for the additional information. I think Black-T is the best highly corrosion resistant finish on the market; maybe not the best looking, but best for use in wet environments encountered by hunters. The conditions that I hunt in are not as severe as your buddy so I am weighing the cost/performance/need issue. If cost were not an issue it would be Black-T (or Green-T) for my hunting rifle. I am considering DuraCoat that I can have done locally for $70. Thanks again.

[Hill]

G34,

I sure like the clean and simple beauty of your pistol.

The rear sight is a type I'd never seen before now and it really set me back because of it's smooth curve front to back. Is it a Baer design - available only through them or on their guns, do you know?

[G34Shooter]

G34,

I sure like the clean and simple beauty of your pistol.

The rear sight is a type I'd never seen before now and it really set me back because of it's smooth curve front to back. Is it a Baer design - available only through them or on their guns, do you know?


It's a 10-8 rear sight that came standard with a .125 U but I had Grayguns cut it into a .140 square notch to simulate my WTS Sevigny rear sight on my Glock 34.

[Hill]

It's a 10-8 rear sight that came standard with a .125 U but I had Grayguns cut it into a .140 square notch to simulate my WTS Sevigny rear sight on my Glock 34.

Ah, so "10-8" is a brand name. I saw the mark on the sight but didn't know it related to a maker. In fact it made me think of a pretty odd thread size or like that. I deal with 10-32, 4-48, things like that so I guess that's where my brain went.

Thanks!

[DuckRyder]

I've seen one of Johns polished ion bonded finishes and it is a beautiful thing, it really does look quite similar to blue, which is perfect for me.

I plan to send my O1070XSE to him for a few finishing touches and the polished Ion Bond.

[G34Shooter]

Ah, so "10-8" is a brand name. I saw the mark on the sight but didn't know it related to a maker. In fact it made me think of a pretty odd thread size or like that. I deal with 10-32, 4-48, things like that so I guess that's where my brain went.

Thanks!

Here's where you can buy them... Mine was a tall originally and then ground for my POI.
http://10-8performance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1P&Category_Code=Sights

[Hill]

Great!

I've just recently gotten re-interested in 1911's so my list of buysites is growing daily. Hadn't seen this one before now.

[Ping Ping]

10-8 is a consulting group, headed up by Hilton Yam, police officer, armorer, designer, innovator and gunsmith. They have an excellent forum (that you can't join), which discusses 1911s, parts, designs, tactics, etc. Hilton is a member here and pops by every so often. His "Signature" guns are highly sought after and of outstanding quality. Most of what he does is intended for hard duty use, over-built, with rugged durability, absolute reliability, not frilly or pretty, and the sight is no exception. Based on the Yo-Bo, the front angle is very abrupt so that it can be used to rack the gun in the case that one hand has been injured. I had one on a pistol a while back and liked it very much. The U notch is very very fast and is intended to be used with a Novak front night sight. As such, it cradles the front vial perfectly. Not the most conceal-carry friendly, but for its intended purpose, about as good as it gets. Very well thought out design.

[moorerwc]

I've been pretty heavily influenced by what Hilton has written about 1911's as well. He typically suggests polymer finishes and even parkerizing for _duty_ guns because these guns get rode hard and the finishes are easy to strip and re-apply if a gun is damaged or modified.
How easy is a PVD finish to strip?
I'm also drawn to the polymer finishes for a carry gun b/c I have very acidic sweat, so everytime I hear about the newest wonder finishes I always wonder if they are even slightly porous like hard chrome can be.
The newer ceramic polymers like Nighthawk's are supposed to wear better than the older gunkote et al. but they also retain more heat--maybe not a problem for a 1911 but I surely wouldn't want that on an AR-15 barrel.
But it sure looks like IonBond is the way to go for a durable and pretty black finish.

-Chad

[Joni Lynn]

There's a lot of good finishes, many of which would be jost fine for most purposes. I've about decided that if I use another finish like any of these it'll probably be Ion Bond.

[G34Shooter]

I've been pretty heavily influenced by what Hilton has written about 1911's as well. He typically suggests polymer finishes and even parkerizing for _duty_ guns because these guns get rode hard and the finishes are easy to strip and re-apply if a gun is damaged or modified.
How easy is a PVD finish to strip?
I'm also drawn to the polymer finishes for a carry gun b/c I have very acidic sweat, so everytime I hear about the newest wonder finishes I always wonder if they are even slightly porous like hard chrome can be.
The newer ceramic polymers like Nighthawk's are supposed to wear better than the older gunkote et al. but they also retain more heat--maybe not a problem for a 1911 but I surely wouldn't want that on an AR-15 barrel.
But it sure looks like IonBond is the way to go for a durable and pretty black finish.

-Chad



Nighthawk's Permakote has flaked off at an enormous rate, go check thier subforum for proof, the polymers are highly corrosion resistant but not abrasion resistant like I posted earlier. And regarding Yam, this is straight from his page:
http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html

"The finish of the weapon will be of importance for reducing maintenance headaches for the user. Traditional polished blue finishes are very pretty, but tend to fare poorly in humid or wet environments. If you are working out in the rain, it is usually not an option to stop what you are doing to either cover your gun or wipe it down with an oily rag. It is not unusual to observe rust forming right on the weapon during a long patrol or operation in a wet environment. For a carbon steel gun, I recommend matte Parkerizing as the bare minimum finish for duty use. Parkerizing is very functional and cheap to reapply when worn. For even better corrosion resistance, an excellent choice would be one of the various thermally cured spray on finishes such as KG Gunkote, Cerakote, Birdsong Black T, or Nighthawk Permakote. Remember that exposed metal will rust, no matter what the manufacturer of the finish claims. Matte stainless usually works quite well, but remember that the porous surface of the steel will trap moisture and can still rust if neglected. Matte hard chrome and some of the newer vapor deposition finishes such as Tungsten DLC offer excellent abrasion resistance and corrosion protection, but can be hard to properly apply and will need to be stripped and reapplied in the event of a weapon repair or rebuild. I prefer a simpler finish that can be reapplied without incident, as duty weapons should expect several rebuilds during their service cycle."


I'm not worried about stripping the finish and reapplying so that concerns me little...

[army_eod]

what's wrong with Parkerization?

[WILDBILL608]

Has anybody ever used Norrels Coating? You can buy a small bottle of it and spray ,no mixing and cure in a oven to the right tempture.

[jfjohn77]

Just want to add my 2 cents on Ion Bond. I recently purchased a 16" Mid-Length RECON SS Barrels for an AR15 offered with the Ion Bond finish. This is what is stated about the finish:

THIS VERSION HAS A BLACK ION BOND FINISH. ION BOND IS A 90 ROCKWELL FINISH THAT BONDS TO THE STAINLESS STEEL OF THE BARREL AT THE MOLECULAR LEVEL AND BECOMES A PART OF THE BARRELS MATRIX.


ION BOND IS THE BEST WAY TO MAKE A STAINLESS STEEL BARREL BLACK. IT WILL NOT BURN OFF, HEAT DISCOLOR, CHIP, PEEL, FADE OR WEAR. ION BOND FINISH IS FAR SUPERIOR TO RUST AND CORROSION THAN THE BARE STAINLESS ITSELF.

Well, when I opened the box, it wasn't packed very well and the gas tube had came loose from it's packing and was lying against the top of the barrel. It had rubbed an area about the size of a pencil eraser off the barrel and there was the stainless steel looking through the nice black finish. So it will scratch & does wear off.

[G34Shooter]

Just want to add my 2 cents on Ion Bond. I recently purchased a 16" Mid-Length RECON SS Barrels for an AR15 offered with the Ion Bond finish. This is what is stated about the finish:

THIS VERSION HAS A BLACK ION BOND FINISH. ION BOND IS A 90 ROCKWELL FINISH THAT BONDS TO THE STAINLESS STEEL OF THE BARREL AT THE MOLECULAR LEVEL AND BECOMES A PART OF THE BARRELS MATRIX.


ION BOND IS THE BEST WAY TO MAKE A STAINLESS STEEL BARREL BLACK. IT WILL NOT BURN OFF, HEAT DISCOLOR, CHIP, PEEL, FADE OR WEAR. ION BOND FINISH IS FAR SUPERIOR TO RUST AND CORROSION THAN THE BARE STAINLESS ITSELF.

Well, when I opened the box, it wasn't packed very well and the gas tube had came loose from it's packing and was lying against the top of the barrel. It had rubbed an area about the size of a pencil eraser off the barrel and there was the stainless steel looking through the nice black finish. So it will scratch & does wear off.





Sounds like outgassing... Send it back to have it redone properly since that is not typical of the finish.

[jfjohn77]

I've already mounted it & have been shooting it. It's not that big of a deal to me since the area of the defect is located under the handguard and can't be seen.
Just putting forth some info.

[jfjohn77]

Sounds like outgassing... Send it back to have it redone properly since that is not typical of the finish.

By the way, not wanting to sound too ignorant but, what is "outgassing"?

[G34Shooter]

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:lWJ1WDDM4MgJ:www.thegunzone.com/diamond_like_coating.html+Ionbond+outgassing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ionbond+outgassing&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1