Pics Of My 1911a1 (1939) And Questions

[ninefingers]

JUST SOME PICS OF MY A1. I BELIEVE IT WAS MFG. IN 1939. THE FINISH IS ORIGINAL, THE GRIPS ARE NOT. IT HAS U.S. ARMY STAMPED ON THE FRAME BUT I THOUGHT ALL PRODUCTION WENT TO THE NAVY THAT YEAR. THE GENTLEMAN TO WHO IT WAS ISSUED WAS A PILOT AND A LIFER IN THE NAVY AND I'VE BEEN TOLD HE GOT OFF THE GROUND DURING THE ATTACK AT PEARL HARBOR. ALTHOUGH I WOULD NEVER SELL IT, I AM CURIOUS AS TO IT'S HISTORY AND VALUE. THANKS.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0009_00.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0006_00.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0004.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0002_00.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0010.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0009.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0007.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/ninefingers65/000_0006.jpg

[Rich-D]

Here are a few Research Sites that may help.

http://proofhouse.com/index.htm

http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911infopage.htm

http://www.armscollectors.com/factory_military_records.htm

http://www.rayvigator.com/Govt.M1911/DateMade/OuickMilitary/Quick.htm#Quick

http://www.megapathdsl.net/~dvivas/alex-usinspectors.html

And on the Raid at Pearl.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm


Rich

[Scott Gahimer]

Are those the grips that were on the gun when you got it, or did you change the grips? What happened to the original grips? Why were they changed?
Can you show us a clear photo of the marking on the bottom of your barrel? Your photo is blurred in the one you provided of the markings on the left side of the barrel. I assume there is a P on the left lug and COLT 45 AUTO on the left side of the chamber?
Does the serial number of the slide match the number of the frame? What's the back of the firing pin stop plate look like? As much as your pistol has been fired, the serial number should be there also.
What's the big secret about the serial number? I know some people hide the last 2-3 digits in their photos, but why? Photos with full serial numbers are posted all the time, they're in books, etc. Hiding numbers gives the appearance, IMO, that there is something to hide. It's pretty hard to assess value with that in mind.
What official military documentation do you have to support the information you provide about the pistol being issued to the individual? What official documentation do you have on the individual himself?
The reason I ask is that it all plays into determining value. You mention Pearl Harbor. What documentation do you have to support that the pistol was at Pearl Harbor on 7 December, 1941 and/or that the individual you reference was there at that time, too?
I'm not being tough on you. I'm trying to determine if your pistol has official documentation/provenance or just a story. Stories are sometimes true, but they are not generally regarded to have the same monetary value as official documents.
Some sharper images may be necessary to arrive at an opinion regarding condition and originality. Some clear close-ups of the markings may be necessary, too.
Without the necessary info, it's foolish for us to throw out value estimates before determining what you have. And I normally include "If your pistol proves to be original and correct..." with any price estimate I might offer. A first hand inspection is necessary to properly evaluate a pistol. Otherwise, you're no better off than to pick up a price guide and use it. I don't recommend any of the price guides. Some are better than others, but none can accurately tell you what your pistol is worth.

[ninefingers]

Scott, The Colt Was Given To A Good Friend Of Mine By The "original" Owner (not Uncle Sam) Who Had Been In The Navy. He Did Not Recieved It Until Well After He Was At Pearl Harbor. I Just Mentioned This As An Interesting Side Note. It Had Clear Grips Made From Airplane Windshield Or Canopy Material When I Got It. The Ones In The Picture Are The Closest Repro Grips I Could Find On The Cheap. The Barrel Has A 'p' Stamed On The Lug W/ "colt 45 Auto" Stamed On The Chamber Above It. As Far As The Hidden Ser # Goes, Being A Greenhorn Here On The Site I Saw Others Jump Off Of A Bridge And Thought I'd Do It Too! Maybe Too Much Paranoia. The Frame And Slide Ser# Are The Same. Thanks For The Heads Up On Where To Find It! I Seem To Have Run Into Some Conflicting Info On When It Was Built 1939 Or 1940? The Full Ser# Is 715934.did All Productin Go To The Navy That Year ? I've Seen Some Marked "u.s.navy" Did They Stop Doing This Earlier? Thanks Again For The Feedback.

[rondawg]

Nice gun there ninefingers! You can get authentic WWII surplus grips (stocks) from Simpson's. http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=201_262 I got two sets of the $15 beaters, and they're fine for me. You have a very nice piece, maybe they can hook you up with some better grade stocks.

Oh, and it really isn't necessary to capitalize each word, makes it really hard to read, and that's gotta be a lot of extra work on your part. Same with using all capitals, that's just like shouting. But, you're not the only one, never understood that.....

[bgiven]

Simpson's does not have the correct grips for that A1. They should be 28 row walnut full checkered grips. Expect to pay around $100.- for an original set if you can find them.

[Scott Gahimer]

1)It Had Clear Grips Made From Airplane Windshield Or Canopy Material When I Got It....2)The Barrel Has A 'p' Stamed On The Lug W/ "colt 45 Auto" Stamed On The Chamber Above It....3)The Frame And Slide Ser# Are The Same. Thanks For The Heads Up On Where To Find It!....4) I Seem To Have Run Into Some Conflicting Info On When It Was Built 1939 Or 1940? The Full Ser# Is 715934. Did All Productin Go To The Navy That Year?...5) I've Seen Some Marked "u.s.navy" Did They Stop Doing This Earlier?

1) IMO, you need to put your clear "sweetheart" grips back on the pistol. The guys often had photos of their girlfriends or wives displayed under them. The original 28-row walnut grips are long gone. The "correct" grips now for your pistol, IMO, are the ones that came home from service with the veteran. Yes, you might find a pair of 28-row Colt grips, but they'll be neither original or correct in my opinion. Once altered, originality is gone forever. If you're going to have a pair of grips that are not original, you may as well have the ones that belong on the pistol. They're the ones that have a history with the pistol.
2) The barrel also has a mark on the BOTTOM of it, in front of the lugs. That mark might be a letter, a number or a combination of both. You may need to use a magnifier to see it.
3) Thanks for providing the full serial number. I'm glad it matches on the slide and frame. But what about on the back side of the firing pin stop plate? That's the plate you had to remove to see the number on the back of the slide. Look there and tell me what you see. Look closely at the back of the slide and compare it to the back of the stop plate.
4) Your pistol was shipped Dec. 2, 1939 from Colt's to Officer in Charge, Naval Supply Depot, Sewalls Point, VA as one of 1632 pistols in that shipment. There were (4) different shipments of M1911A1 pistols to the Govt. that year, totalling 3636 pistols. All of them were shipped to the same address for the Navy.
5) The last pistols with the MODEL OF 1911 U.S. NAVY rollmark on the right side of the slide were the 1915 mfg. M1911 pistols that were shipped to the Naval Militia in the serial range 109501-110000 (500 pistols). After that, all Navy pistols were rollmarked with the Army marking. All Marine Corps pistols had the Army marking...period. So the only Navy marked M1911 pistols were mfg. and shipped 1912-1915.

IF your pistol proves to be all original finish and correct (we know about the grips) it is quite valuable. How much? I'd have to see it up close and perosnal to say. Posting information like that often only encourages a sale. I say hang onto it. Don't let somebody talk you out of it. A lot of guys post nice things on the board asking for help, and often they end of getting burnt by somebody who takes advantage of them. Happens all the time. Do yourself a favor. Keep the pistol and have it authenticated by somebody who knows what they're looking at and isn't trying to buy it or trade for it.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I hate to bring this up, but here goes.

Get the pistol appraised and insure it. Insurance is something we don't much like to think about. You will have a hard time getting a normal homeowners policy to pay the value of a rare pistol ....

Bob

[OD*]

An example of "sweetheart stocks"

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sweetheartstocks.jpg

[ninefingers]

[.
2) The barrel also has a mark on the BOTTOM of it, in front of the lugs. That mark might be a letter, a number or a combination of both. You may need to use a magnifier to see it.
3) Thanks for providing the full serial number. I'm glad it matches on the slide and frame. But what about on the back side of the firing pin stop plate? That's the plate you had to remove to see the number on the back of the slide. Look there and tell me what you see. Look closely at the back of the slide and compare it to the back of the stop plate.
The barrel has a 'G' stamped on the bottom. The back of the firing pin stop plate has the ser# reading backwards on it! It looks to be transposed from the stamped # on the frame. I"m sure Scott knew this would be there, but for me it was like seeing fire for the first time, ooooo! I saved the clear grips but they just don't look right to me, guess I'll stick w/ the knock off wood ones for now. If anyone has any recommendations for insurance companies that cover firearms, please let me know. Thanks, you guys are great.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Backwards - that's interesting.

Bob

[ninefingers]

Sorry the last message had Scott's quote and my reply run together. I'm still trying to figure out these new fangled computin' machines.

[Scott Gahimer]

The barrel marking is correct for your pistol. And I'm glad you discovered the ghost image of your serial number on the stop plate. I wish we were together because there are numerous other things to look at to evaluate your pistol. Pointing those things out and letting someone see why their pistol is either all original (or not) is a lot of fun. I can normally dig out a few pistols in the same serial range for comparison, which is usually pretty helpful to someone learning.

Insurance is not a bad idea, but there are other things to consider as well. Proper care and storage is a chief concern. Security is another. I'd rank insurance #3 among those. Insurance doesn't replace anything that is truly collectible. It only pays a portion of what it might cost to replace, if you can find one. Then, you have all the fine print of the insurance poicy to consider. So first properly care for and securely store the pistol. Make it safe, then consider the insurance end of it.

There are a couple of insurance companies I know of specializing in collector and dealer insurance. I'm sure many will chime in with recommendations. Insurance is a security blanket; it makes us feel good. Take care of the baby first; feed it, clothe it and then give it a blanket.;)

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you do go the insurance route - any policy that does not specifically list and *value* the pistol probably isn't worth paying for. Just like your house, you don't want to replace it at it's original cost, you want to replace it at todays prices ....

No, I don't sell the stuff. I don't even recommend who to go to. It's just one thing to consider as you are evaluating the pistol.

Bob

[Scott Gahimer]

I've Seen Some Marked "u.s.navy" Did They Stop Doing This Earlier? Thanks Again For The Feedback.

I told you earlier about the Navy pistols being roll marked MODEL OF 1911 U.S. NAVY 1912-1915 only, and after that they were Army marked. Here are some original Colt factory roll dies which applied those markings. You'll notice the Navy die is marked June 1913. The Navy pistol shown with the die is from 1913.
The Army die is not marked, but it is from 1916. The marking on the 1916 pistols is slightly smaller and different, and this is the (or one of the) die that was used in 1916. There were only a little over 4000 pistols that year.
The pistol shown with the Army die, however, is from 1917. The marking is rolled on lower on that pistol's slide and it was easier to photograph than the high-marked 1916 marking.

http://i3.tinypic.com/713x6op.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/8amm2k0.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/6pyc7t1.jpg

Later, in 1917, they switched to sans serif lettering about August, and they never went back to the serifs.
Dies were changed frequently, as necessary. They were only good so long.
I have four different roll dies from the Colt factory I've acquired over the years...these two early military pieces and two later ones that are from commercial revolvers.

[ninefingers]

Some good suggestions on insurance, and a lot to consider, thanks. The pics of Scott's rollmark dies are beyond cool,and my wife walked in the room while I was looking at them. She foolishly asked me if I was crying! Of course I wasn't crying, must have got something in my eye is all.... But those dies sure are neat.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Somebody spend a lot of time making each one of those dies by hand.

Bob

[Scott Gahimer]

Yes, I'll bet it kept some craftsmen busy just staying ahead of them with new dies when production rates were high during the wars.
All you have to do is start looking at the different rollmarks on pistols to see they pretty well got all the good out of their dies before they changed them.
Often someone will think a pistol has been refinished just because of voids in the markings. They automatically think the markings have been buffed. When you start comparing several pistols in the same serial ranges, you can see the evidence of the die progressively becoming worse...finally to the point it was replaced. Then...new and slightly different rollmarks again until the next die wears out.

[Axel]

Ninefingers-Thanks for posting pictures of your '39 Colt 1911a1. It is a real beauty. I have been too busy to check out this forum for a few days and it was a real treat to see it.

If it were mine, I would keep the plastic airplane windshield grips just to have, but I would look for a nice set of original full checkered walnut grips and pay the price. Your gun is worth it.

You were very observant to make note of the ghost serial number image on the firing pin stop. It of course indicates that part was with the gun for a long time.

It is hard to come up with a value from pictures.

A few months ago a dealer had a '39 1911a1 on gunbroker that if my memory is correct had a reserve of around $9,000. It showed a little more wear than yours and it did not sell on gunbroker, but I suspect it sold outside of the gunbroker auction.

I could see someone paying $10,000 for a gun such as yours, maybe more if it is as nice as it looks in the pictures.

As for getting insurance, I would rather spend the money on a good fire resistant safe. Maybe I am more of a risk taker than others, but that is my view.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Interesting things about fire resistant safes.

They are rated in terms of the number of hours they will keep the contents of the safe below a specific temperature (300 to 400 F on most I have seen). Think about what you are putting in them. Do not store ammo in there. Think about plastic stuff ...

The rating assumes you open the safe at the end of the rated number of hours. That seems simple. In a major structure fire, you probably will not be allowed back in the building in an hour (or four) after the event. The gotcha is that the safe continues to heat internally long after the fire is out. (The outside walls retain heat) Your stuff may or may not be ok when you get to it.

Electronic combination locks are a big thing on safes these days. They are *very* convenient. I certainly like them a lot more than the big old twist the knob a dozen times each way kind. I doubt that the electronic lock will survive very many minutes (let alone hours) of exposure.

Safes are a great thing for security. For fire, I'm not so sure. Garages are a very common place for the safe and garage fires are pretty common. They are indeed way better for a small fire than the alternatives. Spend the money for security. Think long and hard about spending extra on a fire rating.

Bob

[BrassMonkey]

Nine, that is a very nice piece of American history you have there. I wish I could see it in person. I vote for putting the clear stocks back on and maybe putting your sweethearts picture in there. That oughtta make it look right. :D

[ninefingers]

Everyone keeps telling me to put the sweethart grips back on, I'll give it some more thought,but i really like the wood. I might start looking at the gun shows for some original 28 line grips next year. When I read Axel's last post " $9000-$10,000 value" I about did a spit take. Great, I mean I appreciate the input and all, but now I feel that I'm going to have to stay up all night and watch it. If my wife see's any of this my life won't be worth a nickel! Heck, ever since we wrote up our living wills, I'm afraid to nap in front of her!! Thanks Friends and Happy Holidays.

[pa_guns]

When I read Axel's last post " $9000-$10,000 value" I about did a spit take. .....

Hi

Thus all the chat about only shooting it if you can afford the loss and insurance ...

The pistol's well worth hanging on to. Take good care of it and don't let some bum talk you out of it (except for me, I'm no bum, and it's probably only worth about $500 ... :D :D )

Bob

[ninefingers]

$500, huh? Wow, Pa, with friends like you....

[Axel]

Ninefingers- I'm glad you like my estimate. It certainly is a rare beauty.

If you ever do decide to sell post it in the for sale section of this forum (which you can do after a certain amount of posts).

Keep it oiled and protected.

They are worth much less when they are worn and rusty.

Here is another one sold recently on gunbroker for a little over $2,500 but it looks to be in much worse shape than yours and thus worth far less.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=87389408

[pa_guns]

$500, huh? Wow, Pa, with friends like you....

Hi

You can trust me because I have a lot of gray hair .... :D :D

Bob

[Bladeandbarrel]

Good looking gun. I am glad its not sitting in someones tackle box!