What Condition for your Defense Shotgun?

[myanof]

If you will remember a while back I started a thread asking what condition everyone keeps their 1911s in their Night Stands and everyone pounced on me pretty hard for not keeping my gun C&L in my Night Stand. I got to thinking, if everyone feels they must keep their 1911 C&L in their NightStand, and I'm not arguing the point, why do most people keep their tactical shotguns loaded, but not chambered with one in the pipe? It can't be the racking noise of the slide, hoping to scare away the BG, so what's up? :confused:

[Damion]

Chambered and ready to go. Just flip off the safety. My home defense shotgun is a Saiga 12 semi-auto though.

My brother in law has a pump shotgun, that he keeps loaded, but not chambered. He actually did use the logic "Me racking the gun will scare off any intruder" To which I responded. "Boom Boom will scare them off too, provided A. they can still hear when the second boom happens and B. they can still run and I don't have to give up the element of surprise to fire."

To each their own. But for me, 1911 C&L, Mustang Pocketlite C&L, Saiga 12 C&L if you call it that. The only firearms not ready are the bolt action rifles. Because they would be inappropriate for home defense. For them unloaded, bolts removed and locked up seperate.

[eddailey]

My "home defense" shotgun is a Winchester SX2 Practical MkI, 8+1 semi auto loaded all the way with birdshot. My "car gun" is a pump with buckshot, an empty chamber and a side saddle with 5 extra rounds.

Ed

[Chuck S]

Housegun is a pump shotgun with an empty chamber and uncocked.

If there's no one around after I pump a round into the chamber so much the better! The second worst sound you can hear in the dark is a pump shotgun being charged when you know you didn't bring one. (First, of course, is the sound of a M2HB being charged and you ain't got one of those for sure!)

-- Chuck

[wlambert]

I think the logic goes this way.... You keep the pump shot gun cocked with the safety on. The magazine is full.

To bring the gun into action, you have to move the safety to off, push the bolt release, or pull the trigger, then pump in a round.

You can do this quite easily, but someone who does not understand a pump shotgun will have trouble bringing the gun into action.

It is a safety issue.

wlambert

[txaggiechl]

I personally like the fact that most folks aren't familiar with Mossberg shotguns, and the bolt release is behind the trigger guard (instead of in front like the 870's). Also, I seriously doubt most 'home-boys'/gang bangers/drugged crazies would know how to actually get a round chambered.

It makes no time difference to me when deploying the shotgun (chambered or not chambered), and it could slow someone down who has no business with it just enough.

[Big Sky Rancher]

8 in the mag, 1 in the pipe, safety on, inside a quick opening safe. It may not be for everyone, but it works well for my situation. We have kids so my guns are either holstered or in a safe. If I need to use the shotgun it'll take a couple seconds to open the safe, but from there it will be quick into action.


http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/HD_Shotgun.jpg

Remington Competition Master

[Cottonmouth]

I would just asume have a half a brick to throw as to have an un-loaded (empty chamber) gun.

[John]

First, of course, is the sound of a M2HB being charged and you ain't got one of those for sure!

May I ask what M2HB is?

Tnx

[Scetch]

If memory serves an M2 is a .50 cal belt fed machine gun. Good stuff!!!

[myanof]

8 in the mag, 1 in the pipe, safety on, inside a quick opening safe. It may not be for everyone, but it works well for my situation. We have kids so my guns are either holstered or in a safe. If I need to use the shotgun it'll take a couple seconds to open the safe, but from there it will be quick into action.

clic pic

http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/1100_competition_master.jpg (http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/1100_competition_master.htm)

Remington Competition Master

The Competition Master is a really cool gun. A bit much for my needs, but really cool.

[GCT00427]

My Remington Marine Magnum 870 is easily accessible with the magazine full and the tube empty. I just think that the sound of a pump shotgun round being chambered is one that the bad guys hate to hear and would run the other way. That way everyone wins. The best way to win a gunfight is if it never happens in the first place.

With kind regards,

Chuck

[txaggiechl]

Nice shotgun, I bet it smokes for 3-gun matches.

I personally have never liked semi-auto's for social work. I regularly shoot a Beretta 391 12ga "Gold Sporting" for trap & skeet (it's a gas operated semi-auto). But much prefer the Mossberg 590A1 when its balls to the wall.

Here's why I dislike gas (Remington) & recoil operated (Benelli) shotguns for social work:

1) The "gas system". Regardless of which system you choose, they all get extremely filthy and IMHO, they're all a PITA to clean. When not kept clean, functionality and reliability suffers greatly.

2) The "gas system". I've seen more than one gas gun in perfectly working order (and clean), choke, for not apparent reason. Whether the round was under charged or something else, the gun failed to completely eject and jammed up.

3) The "Recoil Systems". The system that Benelli in particular uses relies specifically on recoil to move the bolt backwards, eject, and then load the next round. For the recoil system to work properly, it MUST have something to recoil against (eg your shoulder). I have personally jammed up a Benelli M2 by shooting it from the hip (same principle as limp-wristing a 1911). This specifically makes the point that these guns have the ability to jam when not shot conventionally (held tightly against the shoulder). I can't predict when or how I'll need to deploy a shotgun, but shooting around or over cover and not exposing my shoulder & upper body would be an option I'd like to keep open.

4) As with any firearm, you can greatly increase the reliability of both gas & recoil guns by shooting at least 50+ rounds (preferably 150+) of your self-defense ammo thru it to insure smooth, reliable operation.

5) The "Pump Shotgun". One large draw-back to the pump style shotguns is the need for two hands to operate it. If you take a round to the shoulder/arm/hand, it would be much easier and quicker to operate a semi-auto shotgun. Also, someone with little training can "short-stroke" a pump gun under stress (I've also seen this happen as well). Good training and range time makes this a non-issue for most folks.

I choose the pump as I'm most comfortable with it's reliability (stupid Murphy ;). It's benifits, for me at least, outweight its negative points.

[adam184]

May I ask what M2HB is?

Tnx
John
the M2HB, is in fact the heavy barrelled version of the 'Browning' (there's that name again) .50 machine gun. It makes a very distintive sound when cocked.
Adam

[Big Sky Rancher]

Nice run down, txa. (Is it ok if I call you that for short?) I like that what you've written is a balanced assessment of both semi-auto and pump platforms because they both, as you said, have upsides and downsides and they both can be terrific weapons for HD.

One thing that's great and should be mentioned about the pump shotgun is the entry price. Somebody can buy a heck of a lot of home protection for 2-$300 or less in some instances. Although another downside to the pump imo is that it is difficult to operate effectively from a prone postion or laid out across a flat surface like a bed or pony wall.

Conversely a downside to a shotgun like the Remington Competition Master, pictured above, is the cost; about $750. A plus though is that the gas system soaks up generous amount of perceived recoil and allows very rapid follow up shots.

[eddailey]

Well said BB! My SX2 Practical is the Winchester version of the Competition Master and it has proved to be MORE reliable (it was hard for me to accept too) than the 870 it replaced! My "splits" (time between shots) with Federal Tactical slugs is about .18-.20 seconds. With slugs or buckshot you can lay down a LOT of lead (8+1 in the gun and 8 more in a side-saddle) in a short amount of time and with complete control.

The downside? You mentioned one, cost. $900+ for the gun and then you have to practice a LOT with it (at LEAST weekly, 100 rounds or so) and ammo ain't cheap. Does the average homeowner NEED such a monster? No way. I mentioned in my first post that I have a pump gun in my trunk and I, in no way, feel "undergunned"!

[vinconco]

Benneli M-90 full 8 rd mag tube, one in the carrier

Have kids.... safe
kids friends.... ?????

[SAWBONES]

One on the shell-lifter of my 870, none in the chamber, mag tube fully loaded.

[TheProf-TX]

Mossberg 500 with pistol grip and 18" barrel - uncocked with a magazine of 3 inch magnum #4 buck. First round feeds very smoothly.

[papashah41]

Benneli M-90 full 8 rd mag tube, one in the carrier

Ditto here...... "Pre ban" Benelli Super 90 "Defense" with the 8rnd tube (7 rnd for me....I use 3" mags :) ). Insert 7 shells (or 8 if you're using 2 3/4's) into the tube, make sure the chamber is empty and pull the trigger. The hammer drops on an empty chamber and a shell is released onto the shell carrier.....Benelli calls this "cruiser-ready".


By the way, I've tried to "limp wrist" my Benelli to see just how "loose" I can hold on to it in a "SHTF" scenerio......have yet to be able to induce a malfunction!

[Harlie]

Slick action is very managable w/one hand for action work vs a semi-auto with a malfunction of any type. Mag' full, chamber empty, trigger released and standing in corner, w/a loaded ammo belt and spare rds, including slugs, old BSI sabot "Baricade busters". Only thing lacking is a NS.

[papashah41]

.....old BSI sabot "Baricade busters".....

Back in the day, I bought butt-loads of those in the "red box" 3"mag loading.....and foolishly shot 'em all up! Went to buy more, only to find the company had been bought out! (and the new company is making the slugs in plain 'ol lead).
I DID manage to score one box of 2 3/4 "black box" on a clearence shelf of a local gunstore......
.....I'm hanging on to those.....LOL

[rero360]

I have both a pump gun and a semi auto, mossburg 500 and remington 11-87 respectivly, however I don't use either one for HD, i feel the long barrels are a detrement to room clearing, haven't bothered getting a short barrel for the 500, but I use my new berreta CX4 Storm in .40 cal, should have my pistol permit by the end of the month so I'll go to the handgun.but I keep the storm empty chamber full mag. in.

[michael t]

I aint useing a shot gun in my house even cut down to long .1911a1 fine with me.I live in country so if Iam going out side I take my Rossi coach with oobuck and my 1911.

[Hunter]

Winchester 12 ga Defender with a full mag of 3" buckshot. I don't keep one in the pipe but I keep my Ruger GP 100 .357Mag loaded 125gr JHP close as well.

[horse 91-A1]

I keep my Norinco 870 fully loaded OObuck, but it's not my primary. One thing that has surprised me is no one has mentioned knives for backup in real close quarters.

Adios,
Bob

[SAWBONES]

870 Pump. Mag tube full, one on the shell lifter, safety "off".

[Chaindog7777]

A Single target confirmed in my house? My Mossberg security 500, the shells alternate,
1 buckshot
1 8 shot
X4
It has eight shots.

For MULTIPLE targets, my Bushmaster XM-15 with 30 round clips, loaded with Hornady TAP SD ammo. It also has a tactical foregrip. I was taught by a marine family member, if you can help it, never go into combat with a pistol.

[vinconco]

I was taught by a marine family member, if you can help it, never go into combat with a pistol.

A pistol is used to fight your way to a rifle.

[OD*]

One of these two, with loaded mag, empty chamber;

Rem 870
http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/870.jpg

or, USGI Ithaca M-37
http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/m-37-2.jpg

[Wiff]

May I ask what M2HB is?

Tnx
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg04-e.htm
Yea, Good stuff. You rack a round into that and there would be 2 sounds, The action jacking a round in the chamber and the splatter sound of the intruders bowels evacuating in pure, shear terror. If you have one of those in your home for selfdefence your more over the top than I am. People think I am odd cause my Mossberg 590 has a bayonet on it.

[horse 91-A1]

There was a marine sgt on Guadacanal in WWII who was awarded the Medal of Honor using his M1911 and machete.

I'm passing this info on in case someone actually needs to use a shotgun in close combat. This is for a right handed person and is designed to keep your shotgun taken away from you. In close combat situation your left hand is on top of the barrel holding the slide. If a second shot is needed you keep your left hand stationary and push/pull the action with your right hand.

Unlike carrying a shotgun with left hand under the slide; if you are surprised by a BG taking hold of your barrel to push it aside or up - with hand on top the BG will actually being pulling the shotgun toward himself causing the shotgun to fire. If you have a miss/failure and don't have time for a reload fall back upon your baton training using the shotgun as a baton, defense/strike or use a knife if able, responding to BG's footwork with your own footwork.

Close combat situations with a shotgun requires a different standard of training (mental toughness) with the strong liklihood that your opponent is a released convicted felon who practiced police arrest techniques while in prison. This is really the type of person you need to train for and he's already experienced. :D

Thinking a person will flee upon hearing a shotgun slide action will reverse that psychology if the BG doesn't leave. Overestimating yourself and underestimating you opponent will get yourself/loved ones killed; ask any LEO or combat vet - it's a historical fact.

I've been fortunate during my lifetime to have received good training and being retired now I can see the need for some very specialized training in the near future. With family in a house occupying a number of rooms my last choice of weapon would be a shotgun. For those who believe the sound of a slide action shotgun will scare an intruder off; you've just been rejected from my team or any team I'm apart of that involves lethal force. I expect anyone who has operated in a team environment would give the same response.

Adios,
Bob

[vinconco]

Amen Bob;
I learned that lesson the first time I had to defend myself with a shotgun. Violent drunks don't scare easy but sometimes they get lucky which is why that drunk lived through the encounter.

[1911Tuner]

20-inch Coach Gun...#4 high brass...rebound hammers down...
Four male Collies (Three big boys and one small one) positioned in strategic places around the house. Two yappy little dogs, a female Sheltie and a female Collie in the bedroom that sleep with one eye and both ears open. Two big Labs and a Pit in the lower lot to sound first alert.

Yep...I sleep like a baby. :p

[Hunter]

My dogs sleep in the yard and if by chance someone was to get by them(which is doubtful especially my begal who would wake up my big dog and he tends to get cranky when woken up) The alarm in my house has a setting that will tell you if a door or window is opened that would give me a few seconds to get to my Winchester 1300. I also sometimes leave out my New England break action. Only one shot at a time but it is a 10 ga. I keep several 3 1/2 inch mag 10 ga #4s handy on the stock. I can leave one in the pipe and it is a matter of pulling back the hammer. With a 24" barrel it will better than cover my door. As always my Ruger GP 100 .357 will be close by. If all else fails Leroy the cat can hold his own. :D

[horse 91-A1]

Johnny, sounds like your world has gone to the dogs. :)

Adios,
Bob

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, sounds like your world has gone to the dogs. :)

Adios,
Bob

Woof!

I didn't mention the German Shepherd/St. Bernard pup. He doesn't do much except eat and bark...

[grm]

870 with a full tube,empty chamber,safety on.

[tsa45]

Remington 11-87P with 6 rds of 000 Buck in the mag and an empty chamber. 6 slugs in the sidesaddle. Not quite as fast into action as a pump, but very reliable, lots of 'firepower' and low (for a full power 12 gauge) recoil. I count on my dog and a cocked and locked 1911 to give me enough time to bring the shotgun into play, should things ever get that ugly. I pray it never does. . .

[Baa]

Relying on the slide noise to scare off BGs is not a good idea. If you are at the point where you need to use your house gun, all the BG should hear is- RACKBOOM! Don't give away your position or that fact that you are armed.

I keep a Mossberg 590, kept cruiser ready. Which is to say, 7 in the mag (holds 8, I go with 7 to keep the spring healthy) empty chamber, safety off. All rounds are reduced recoil 00 buck.

The rationale for keeping your shotgun cruiser ready (as told to me in MP school long ago) is that older shotguns can go off due to sharp impact, so keeping the chamber empty is a safe, but still very fast way to keep the weapon ready for action. The time it takes to rack the slide is very short, with practice.

[Ten_Ring]

Mossberg 500A, 18.5 barrel loaded with 3" 00. Empty chamber for the simple reason I "WANT" them to hear me rack one home. That way they will know with out a doubt what they are facing.

[Gotti817]

My Remington 1100, Competition Master is kept mag. loaded and chamber empty. All I have to do is tug on the charging handle and she's ready to go.

Mike.

[myanof]

My Remington 1100, Competition Master is kept mag. loaded and chamber empty. All I have to do is tug on the charging handle and she's ready to go.

Mike.

Gotti817, what barrel length does your 1100 have and what ammo do you use? Thanks

[Gotti817]

Gotti817, what barrel length does your 1100 have and what ammo do you use? Thanks

I have the Competition Master that was made in 2003, only. It has a 22" barrel, 8+1 capacity, oversized charging handle, fiber optic front sight, seven round side saddle and Remington R3 recoil pad. The gun is awesome. I also have a Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical that was made in 1995. But, my Remington is by my bed at night. I use two different types of ammo: 1)Federal LEO 000 buck low recoil. 2)Sellier & Bellot 00 buck. All of which are standard 2.75" shells.

Here's link to a pic:

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/remington/remCompetitionMaster.asp

This gun was made for three gun competition.

Mike.

[myanof]

I have the Competition Master that was made in 2003, only. It has a 22" barrel, 8+1 capacity, oversized charging handle, fiber optic front sight, seven round side saddle and Remington R3 recoil pad. The gun is awesome. I also have a Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical that was made in 1995. But, my Remington is by my bed at night. I use two different types of ammo: 1)Federal LEO 000 buck low recoil. 2)Sellier & Bellot 00 buck. All of which are standard 2.75" shells.

Here's link to a pic:

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/remington/remCompetitionMaster.asp

This gun was made for three gun competition.

Mike.

Thanks, very nice. I will not be coming in your house at night. :nono:

[Gotti817]

Thanks, very nice. I will not be coming in your house at night. :nono:


Thank you, sir. It is most intimidating to hear a shotguns action being worked in the dead of night, pump or autoloader. I believe that most people who know what I have would feel the same as you and I do. :)

Mike.

[chul_soo]

If you will remember a while back I started a thread asking what condition everyone keeps their 1911s in their Night Stands and everyone pounced on me pretty hard for not keeping my gun C&L in my Night Stand. :

wut does C&L mean?

[myanof]

wut does C&L mean?

Cocked and locked, as opposed to hammer down on a live round.

[Gotti817]

Hammer cocked and safety locked.

Mike.

[DanR]

Mossburg 590A1, seven in the tube, chamber empty, safety off, five on the stock, twenty on the sling and eighty on the bandolier. Mix of 00 buck an BB. All three inchers.

[Gotti817]

Mossburg 590A1, seven in the tube, chamber empty, safety off, five on the stock, twenty on the sling and eighty on the bandolier. Mix of 00 buck an BB. All three inchers.


Got ammo??? :D

Mike.

[myanof]

Mossburg 590A1, seven in the tube, chamber empty, safety off, five on the stock, twenty on the sling and eighty on the bandolier. Mix of 00 buck an BB. All three inchers.

Good Lord Dan, what kind of trouble are you expecting? I hope you thought about having a good fire extinguisher close by for the fireworks show. ;)

[OD*]

http://www.3gungear.com/images/people_pics/sg_gearselection.jpg

[DanR]

Gotti817:

Rule number three of Gunfighting states: "You will fight a gunfight with the ammo you have on hand, you cannot expect resupply."

Rule number seven of Gunfighting states: "You can never have too much ammo."

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Love the picture, OD!

[Gotti817]

http://www.3gungear.com/images/people_pics/sg_gearselection.jpg


Very cool pic. Gotta love the twelve gauges. My favorite, by far.

Mike.

[OD*]

Y'all can find that stuff here;
http://www.3gungear.com/Pages/1_home_page.html

[Gotti817]

Y'all can find that stuff here;
http://www.3gungear.com/Pages/1_home_page.html

Thanks. I already have the 3gungear side saddle on my 1100.

Mike.

[chul_soo]

http://www.3gungear.com/images/people_pics/sg_gearselection.jpg

LoL~! you made my day OD... :)

[OD*]

LoL~! you made my day OD...
I wouldn't want to fall in a lake wearin' all that stuff. ;)

[littledoc]

I do have a word of advice. Don't put more than a couple in the mag if you are going to leave it in the corner for any length of time. Shotgun mag springs will fatigue fairly quickly compared to a pistol mag spring. Two or three will keep you going until you top off.

I have a Remington 870 with two in the mag, chamber empty. A Blackhawk cheek pad with five rounds attached and a vest with 25 shotshells and all sorts of goodies. If I get the shotgun, things have gone from SNAFU to FUBAR.

When I go investigate things that go bump, I have a Baer TRS go with me and a Surefire flashlight. When navigating around at night in an enclosed space, a pistol gives you a free hand to manipulate things. Poop and snoop, figure out what is going on and what you are facing before giving yourself away.

The first thing I want an intruder to here is my voice as he his getting illuminated with at least 65 lumens of Surefire. It is absolutely amazing what kind of affect a good light can have on people. :scared:

[Peacefulwarrior]

I keep my Rem 870 "cruiser ready" chamber empty,action unlocked and 6 in the magazine.

[shark40sw]

moss 500, chamber empty, loaded tube (#4-then 00 low recoil) with 5 ore in the side saddle (last one a slug)

[2400]

Chambered and ready to go. Just flip off the safety.

+1 Except I push the safety off.

[plws88]

I realize the original post is old, but I assume this is an ongoing discussion. I keep my Rem 870 18" chambered and fully loaded (but good advice by littledoc on mag springs -- seems I've read that before), safety on. We don't have any kids, and I've made my wife aware to not bump it, etc. Other than the kids/safety issue, I haven't read anyone specifically saying why not to keep one in the chamber -- most whom I've read here don't keep one in the chamber -- just wonderin' if I was just showin' my ignorance. If most agree that the best condition to keep a 1911 is C&L,(even though it has 2 safeties -- and pistol or shotgun, I know we're not supposed to rely on mechanical safeties) why not a shotgun?

[myanof]

I realize the original post is old, but I assume this is an ongoing discussion. I keep my Rem 870 18" chambered and fully loaded (but good advice by littledoc on mag springs -- seems I've read that before), safety on. We don't have any kids, and I've made my wife aware to not bump it, etc. Other than the kids/safety issue, I haven't read anyone specifically saying why not to keep one in the chamber -- most whom I've read here don't keep one in the chamber -- just wonderin' if I was just showin' my ignorance. If most agree that the best condition to keep a 1911 is C&L,(even though it has 2 safeties -- and pistol or shotgun, I know we're not supposed to rely on mechanical safeties) why not a shotgun?

I've ask the same question before also. Most who have joined in this discussion keep their 1911 C&L, but keep their shotgun unchambered. Many have gone by the Urban Myth that bad guys will fold up their tent and run at the sound of a shucked shotgun. In my opinion, they should all be kept C&L if you don't have kids to worry about. Why take the risk of a short shuck in a life saving situation?

[warmrain]

I think the logic goes this way.... You keep the pump shot gun cocked with the safety on. The magazine is full.

To bring the gun into action, you have to move the safety to off, push the bolt release, or pull the trigger, then pump in a round.

You can do this quite easily, but someone who does not understand a pump shotgun will have trouble bringing the gun into action.

It is a safety issue.

wlambert
My thinking exactly. My Mossy 590 has a fully loaded tube and is not chambered. The Mossy bolt release is in a different location then many others too. It is kept in a Mossberg lock box (hidden) and so the action is open (it is a trick to get the last round in the tube). When gone the box is locked, when home it is unlocked. So the action must be closed and then "you have to move the safety to off, push the bolt release, or pull the trigger, then pump in a round."

[littledoc]

If I kept my 870 as my primary uh, oh gun, and I used to, I sure as heck would keep it C&L.

[Hawk1911]

My main reason to keep a full mag and none in the chamber is the kids safety. I do however belive that if someone where to hear the pump action and are not carring then they would leave, however if they are I am not so sure. Either way if they decide to stick around, I will make it an eternal visit. I don't have any need for some kind of lawsuit for an on the job injury or something stupid like that.

[NaturalizedTexan]

I keep my Mossberg 500ATP C&L with #4, 00, slug, #4, 00, #4, 00, slug. I have a Surefire on the nightstand at all times. Under nightstand is a Sig P229 .40 with 2nd loaded magazine. Once my CD 1911 proves itself reliable it will replace the Sig.

After reading littledoc's post I need to reconsider keeping the Mossberg tube fully loaded. Perhaps a sidesaddle or sling bandolier.

[Super Trucker]

I keep my Rem 870 "cruiser ready" chamber empty,action unlocked and 6 in the magazine.


I also use this setup.