Extractor Question

[Coastie Doc]

Can someone please tell me who makes the best extractor? I've heard that Wilson's BF is the best, while others' claim that Ed Brown HC is better and now EGW has a new design. Additionally, why wouldn't a Colt factory, steel extractor work just as well?

The reason I ask, is I would like to get a backup one. I just want something that works, is easy to tension and is a quality part. Thanks. :butthead:

[twin oaks]

The one on the left.

All are very high quality parts, and should work fine for you. If you have a Colt, or clone, the stock version may work very well for you. Some makers, like Springfield, have changed things a bit ( their FP size). Others have nice features like serrations to prevent glare on the back of the slide. You just have to find one that matches your pistol best. Also, remember to check whether you have a 'gunsmith part'- one that's made oversized to be fitted perfectly with the rear of the slide.

[WildRice]

After a no name extractor snapped in two as I was bending/adjusting it, I searched for a good replacement. The Wilson Combat Bullet Proof extractor is working well so far, but I have not fired thousands of rounds with it yet. It looks like it is built to last much longer than a cheapo extractor. Cheap extractors bought at a gun show may be weak pot metal and not spring steel or hardened steel, yet still look Okay.

I like the Wilson Combat Bullet Proof design since it is a precisely machined item of very tough steel. In fact it is so rigid that it is very difficult to bend or adjust it. You probably won't need to adjust it. The tension was set perfectly to retain a full 230 ball round on the slide with mild shaking, but with no hesitation going into battery. The claw end is oversized to the maximum dimension to fit through the extractor tunnel. In fact, there can be a little resistance removing this extractor (pressing the claw with a small dowel helps). The claw is about 20% bigger than some no name extractors I have. This should allow more consistent extraction and ejection. I went ahead and slightly beveled the bottom of the extractor claw area, but I am not sure it needed it. The rear end of the extractor is also tight fitting: the slot that holds the firing pin stop is narrow and holds the firing pin stop securely. You will notice this if you dry fit the extractor and firing pin stop on the slide without the firing pin. This retains the firing pin stop with no risk of the firing pin stop slipping during the firing cycle (an extra power firing pin spring helps too). It also prevents the extractor from moving fore/aft or rotating in the extractor tunnel, again making extraction more consistent.

I was under the mistaken impression that the rear part of the extractor must wedge into the rear of the extractor tunnel with tension. That is not true. It is only important that the front claw end have proper tension on the shell casing. As shipped, the rear end of the Wilson extractor does not fit snugly until the firing pin stop is inserted, yet the front claw tension is perfect.

Also note that the series 70 and series 80 extractors are different. I could not find stainless series 80 Wilson Bullet Proof extractors for my brace of Colt Combat Commanders.

[1911Tuner]

I was under the mistaken impression that the rear part of the extractor must wedge into the rear of the extractor tunnel with tension. That is not true.


Yes it is. When the extractor and the channel are correctly within spec, the slight bend in the stem should make the extractor a press-fit into the channel. If it slips in easily or with no resistance...even if the extractor works as intended in the extraction/ejection function...somethin' ain't right.

[OD*]

Can someone please tell me who makes the best extractor? I've heard that Wilson's BF is the best, while others' claim that Ed Brown HC is better and now EGW has a new design. Additionally, why wouldn't a Colt factory, steel extractor work just as well?

The reason I ask, is I would like to get a backup one. I just want something that works, is easy to tension and is a quality part. Thanks. :butthead:
Look into Cylinder & Slide's spring steel extractor too.
https://shop.cylinder-slide.com/ccp51/cgi-bin/cp-app.pl?usr=51F1491088&rnd=8678894&rrc=N&affl=&cip=71.97.140.75&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=108&cat=43&catstr=HOME:6:43

[garrettwc]

Wilson Bulletproof
Brown Hardcore
Note: Wilson and Brown make two tiers of parts. Stick with the better grade Bulletproof and Hardcore.

EGW
Caspian
Cylinder & Slide
Colt

Stick with one of these vendors and you should have no issues. If you get the EGW you might as well go ahead and get the oversize FPS and give it the Tuner treatment. ;)

[1911Tuner]

Note: Wilson and Brown make two tiers of parts. Stick with the better grade Bulletproof and Hardcore.

Well...After touting the Wilson Bulletproof extractor for a good while...I've found that the Wilson "Heavy-Duty" extractor is every bit as good, and because it's thicker in the shank, it's a little harder to bend...and would likely hold tension better over the long haul. Plus...it's a buck cheaper from Brownells. Not a consideration for a one-off project...but if you order 50 a year like I do, it adds up.

[G34Shooter]

There still isn't much feedback on EGW's new HD Extractor yet, I guess I'll find out myself :scared:

[kcshooter]

I've tried the Wilson Bulletproof, Ed Brown Hardcore, factory Colt, EGW, and Fusion. My personal favorites at this point are Wilsons, followed by the Fusion. I have heard good things about the C+S, and plan on giving that one a shot next. If you aren't really familiar with tuning an extractor, I would recommend the Wilson Bulletproof.

[auto45]

I've had good luck with the Colt, but very expensive. Perhaps they make their own.

I used a Wilson years ago and it worked fine also. Only about 8,000-10,000 rounds through it.

Brownells makes one now also. I wonder who makes thems?

Too many choices.

[wichaka]

I was wondering who makes Brownells as well...........anyone know?

I use either Wilson Bulletproof, Brown's Hardcore, or Nowlin's Tuff-Stuff.

[Pappy]

...but if you order 50 a year like I do, it adds up.

Johnny, I just gotta ask. You have said that you are still using the same extractors from 70 odd years ago..

It begs the question....How do you go through 50 a year?

A curious mind wishes to know, if you please....

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, I just gotta ask. You have said that you are still using the same extractors from 70 odd years ago..

It begs the question....How do you go through 50 a year?

A curious mind wishes to know, if you please....

Well, Pappy...Not all my pistols have 70+ year-old extractors...and I've got a lotta friends who bring their guns to me with extractor problems and/or tune-ups and/or flat out rebuilds...and they want their extractors replaced. I try to keep 5-10 on hand all the time...but I can't seem to maintain my inventory.

[Pappy]

Well, Pappy...Not all my pistols have 70+ year-old extractors...and I've got a lotta friends who bring their guns to me with extractor problems and/or tune-ups and/or flat out rebuilds...and they want their extractors replaced. I try to keep 5-10 on hand all the time...but I can't seem to maintain my inventory.

And other parts as well!!!!

Thank you Sir..

[FLINTFOREVER]

Yes it is. When the extractor and the channel are correctly within spec, the slight bend in the stem should make the extractor a press-fit into the channel. If it slips in easily or with no resistance...even if the extractor works as intended in the extraction/ejection function...somethin' ain't right.

I am looking to change my extractor on my mil-spec and after reading the above statement mine has no press fit into the slide.I have to say I must have over 1100 rounds threw the gun and yes not one empty case FT Exit never had any problems .I do think for some reason the one in my SA is a tad smaller to spec:
I think I am going to try the Wilson Bullet proof

[garrettwc]

Well...After touting the Wilson Bulletproof extractor for a good while...I've found that the Wilson "Heavy-Duty" extractor is every bit as good, and because it's thicker in the shank, it's a little harder to bend...and would likely hold tension better over the long haul.
Good to know. I had avoided the "heavy duty" because of some bad reports I had gotten on them. Sounds like they have beefed them up some and cured the issues.

[WildRice]

I am looking to change my extractor on my mil-spec and after reading the above statement mine has no press fit into the slide.I have to say I must have over 1100 rounds threw the gun and yes not one empty case FT Exit never had any problems .I do think for some reason the one in my SA is a tad smaller to spec:
I think I am going to try the Wilson Bullet proof


I used to believe that the rear end of the extractor needed a resistance fit, but I was wrong. I read (in Wilson's book, I believe) that rear extractor tension is not important. What is important is the tension on the front end. Your pistol proves this point. If an extractor's front tension gives 100% reliability, why bend the rear section to add more tension. With the Wilson Combat Bullet Proof extractor on my pistol, the front tension was set perfectly already, althought the rear end did not friction fit. But since the firing pin stop fits the extractor slot so tightly, there is no extractor slop, movement, or rotation once the slide is fully assembled.

[garrettwc]

I used to believe that the rear end of the extractor needed a resistance fit, but I was wrong. I read (in Wilson's book, I believe) that rear extractor tension is not important. What is important is the tension on the front end. Your pistol proves this point. If an extractor's front tension gives 100% reliability, why bend the rear section to add more tension.
Unless I have missed something all these years, there is not a "second" bend at the rear for the rear tension, the one bend you do should be far enough back and of sufficient angle to provide the friction fit at the rear and the proper tension on the claw.

Am I right on this?

[RickB]

There still isn't much feedback on EGW's new HD Extractor yet, I guess I'll find out myself :scared:

I have one in use, but very few rounds on it. I was surprised that the hook appears more G.I. than most extractors; no obvious "reliefs" or "bevels" or other stuff that is sometimes already done to modern extractors. The hook is very wide, so more hook surface will be in contact with the rim. I've had no issues with it at all, but again, very limited number of rounds - 500? - so far. In detail, the hook is visibly different from EGW's "normal" extractor, which is also a good one. What would usually be sharp machined edges are softer, which should reduce breakage. What sold me on the new one is the shorter OAL; the hook is closer to the breechface, and I think this gives the extractor better, more consistent control of the case. Ejection is very consistent.

[G34Shooter]

I have one in use, but very few rounds on it. I was surprised that the hook appears more G.I. than most extractors; no obvious "reliefs" or "bevels" or other stuff that is sometimes already done to modern extractors. The hook is very wide, so more hook surface will be in contact with the rim. I've had no issues with it at all, but again, very limited number of rounds - 500? - so far. In detail, the hook is visibly different from EGW's "normal" extractor, which is also a good one. What would usually be sharp machined edges are softer, which should reduce breakage. What sold me on the new one is the shorter OAL; the hook is closer to the breechface, and I think this gives the extractor better, more consistent control of the case. Ejection is very consistent.


Sounds good to me... Thanks for the review :D

[kcshooter]

Unless I have missed something all these years, there is not a "second" bend at the rear for the rear tension, the one bend you do should be far enough back and of sufficient angle to provide the friction fit at the rear and the proper tension on the claw.
Garrettwc, that sounds right to me also. The rear of your extractor should be a friction fit to the slide, not a tension fit. It shouldn't need to be bent to make it snug, and if it is so loose that it needs to have an extra bend in it, something isn't right. This is what I've found in actual use and fitting of extractors. My personal opinion is that it is one of the most vital parts to proper operation, if not the most vital.


I was surprised that the hook appears more G.I. than most extractors; no obvious "reliefs" or "bevels" or other stuff that is sometimes already done to modern extractors.
I could be wrong here, because I've never tried it any other way, but my understanding is that the bevel is important, both to properly catching the rim and to decreasing movement, and therefore wear. I may need corrected here, anyone have any insight? (psst, Tuner)

[G34Shooter]

There's another thread on it over here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=184692

Thank you all for the good info and showing gaps in our presentation.

Good point on the FP stop cut out. We make the stops to .101 +0 -.0015 on the flat thickness. The extractor cut out is .099 +.001 so you may have to fit a Smig. :) by removing from the front of the stop cut it would bring the extractor back but all of .002 would not be huge but it would be going the right way.

The fitting pad behind the hook and flat on some guns as mentioned needs to be filed down to adjust how far the extractor can move over. This is seporate from the Tension which we think of as bending to adjust.

Posted above one of the guys said to slide the extractor part way out of the Extractor hole and bend it. Please be careful as I have seen slides where the extractors put a nick in the edge of the hole. Using a smooth vise jaw or a dummy slide may be a good idea.

The hook is cut on a slight angle and the corner radius make the part much stronger. hopefully no one will be moving the hook forward.

On the front edge of the hook a slight hand rounding would be a good idea. this way if in your particular slide the hook rides up on the relief of the case it will ride up less and not dig in. When we were doing the ground work on the extractore we checked 10 slides and most varied about .007. Since than we have had some vary a Lot MORE than this which would be hard to adjust for. I can see on a future run making some extractors with no fp stop cut out that you can change the location of the cut for custom fitting.

Thank you Rick B for the help.

best regards,
geo

www.egw-guns.com



The part itself:

EGW New Design HD 45 Extractor $39.99
EGW New Design HD 45 Extractor
Click to enlarge

We saw a need for some improvements on the 45 extractors available today for the 1911. Wile some feel that steel from the turn of the last century i.e. 1920's spring steel, un alloyed 1065 1080 etc. are best, There are much improved Steels available to us today. Better alloys, better furnaces, Vacuum heat treat, Better Machine tools, finite element analysis....

First the distance from the bolt face to the extractor hook is too large (see picture on Comparator) The extractor Rides up on extractor relief groove on the case with each firing. First fatiguing the hook by constantly banging into the case. Second by ramping away from the extractor you loose tension over time. Third the case gets Jammed into the chamber affecting accuracy. That's bad.

The hook design on most extractors are cut strait in. The Hook is at best flat and as the cutters wear the hook tends to move away from the case. Next we move to the inside square corner on the hook. This is a stress riser, all the pressures back and fourth concentrate in this spot.

European shotgun springs are thin and well polished, they last a long time because stress is not concentrated in a small area. By using an 11 axis machining center in flood oil coolant and carbide tooling the surface finish is much improved leading to long life of the extractor.

What we did.

1 The hook is moved back closer to the bolt face to improve extractor life and accuracy

2 The hook is done with a special cutter that leaves a nice clean radius in the inside corner where most extractors fail.

3 The Hook itself is undercut a couple degrees so it bites into the case rim.

4 The back section is solid so it is stronger.

5 The back is a little long so you can blend it to YOUR slide for a perfect fit. We checked slides from 5 manufactures during development and they were all different in the back radius where the extractor blends in.

6 The cut for the firing pin stop is held to a tighter spec and works great with our O/S fp stop.

7 Vacuum heat treated 49 to 51 rc which yields great spring properties and maintains tension.

8 Made from Unobtanium, only available from EGW inc. this stuff is a century ahead of common spring steel.

9 20 years experience counts for something. EGW the parts that fit.

[WildRice]

Regarding whether the rear of the extractor needs a tension fit in the tunnel, here is an excerpt from Bill Wilson's book "The Combat Auto", page 78:

"One other misconception is that the extractor itself must be under tension in its tunnel in the slide. The holes aren't always drilled the same, so some extractors might be loose and some might be tight. It doesn't matter. All that matters is the tension on the round itself."

[1911Tuner]

Regarding whether the rear of the extractor needs a tension fit in the tunnel, here is an excerpt from Bill Wilson's book "The Combat Auto", page 78:

Oh please...Don't throw that ol' hoorah at me. I've been at this for over 43 years.

[garrettwc]

Oh please...Don't throw that ol' hoorah at me. I've been at this for over 43 years.
Which is why I was directing the question at you. ;)

What I meant was that if the bend is done correctly it provides both the tension fit in the slide and the pressure on the round in the chamber from one bend. That's what I am trying to verify, whether or not you need a "second" bend near the rear to create the tension in the slide.

[WildRice]

When adjusting (bending) the extractor, some pull the extractor halfway out of the slide and bend, were as others reverse the extractor, insert it halfway, and bend. I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. The point I am trying to make (and what Bill Wilson says), is that it is the tension the extractor has on the round which is important, not how much tension the extractor has in its tunnel. I really like the way the Wilson Combat Bullet Proof extractor tightly fits the firing pin stop and prevents both parts from shifting. I also like the large extractor claw that holds the brass really well.

[1911Tuner]

Which is why I was directing the question at you.


No need for a "Second" bend, Garrett. A single bend at the mid-point is the method that I've used for years. That places the outboard dogknot in contact with the right side wall of the channel, and the ends in contact with the left walls.

Another trick that I like to do is to reduce the outboard dogknot(Or starboard, if you prefer) a few thousandths for an overall center pad diameter of .195-.200 inch. That allows a little more bend in the extractor without excessive tension on the case rim until later in the pickup when the cartridge is nearly broken over to horizontal. It "times" the extractor's tension...for lack of a better term.

And, of course, beveling the lower corner of the tensioning wall and radiusing the
bottom corner of the hook is more or less SOP. I like to lightly break the top corner to allow the case to roll off the hook more smoothly and to alter the release point. The amount will vary from gun to gun...but usually just a very light bevel is all most of'em need.

[garrettwc]

nother trick that I like to do is to reduce the outboard dogknot(Or starboard, if you prefer) a few thousandths for an overall center pad diameter of .195-.200 inch. That allows a little more bend in the extractor without excessive tension on the case rim until later in the pickup when the cartridge is nearly broken over to horizontal. It "times" the extractor's tension...for lack of a better term.
Neat trick. Thanks for the follow up answer.

[1911Tuner]

When adjusting (bending) the extractor, some pull the extractor halfway out of the slide and bend, were as others reverse the extractor, insert it halfway, and bend. I don't think it makes a great deal of difference.


Yeah. That's known as a "Field Expedient" repair, and it works okay if ya don't mind redoin' it every couple thousand rounds or so.

Steel has a memory, and under repeated stress cycles, it tends to return to its original shape. To re-program it, you're best served by teaching it a new trick. Here's how I manage to get my extractors to outlast my guns:

Lay it on a V-block with the center pad about halfway between the supports. Note that if you're doing this to a Series 80-type extractor, you'll need to place the plunger cutout on the support to avoid damage...either bending it past its elastic limit or breaking it outright.

Use a 4-ounce hammer to bump the extractor in the middle...because steel "memorizes" the new shape a little better if it's subjected to shock. It's a trick that I picked up when I was straightening steel crankshafts in an engine shop.

Bend the stem a little further than it needs to be bent, and let it sit for a few hours to give it time to learn the new shape. Then, when it's time to install it...straighten the bend a little at a time until you get the tension like you want it...and use the same method that you used to bend it.

Install it in the gun, and chamber a dummy round. Leave it in place for a couple hours to give the extractor time to take a set. It's essentially nothing more than a spring, and if it's made of the right stuff, it'll take a set in a fairly short time. If you set the tension correctly, it will hold that shape for many tens of thousands of rounds.

Cheers, and all that sort of thing.

[Joni Lynn]

Thanks for that info Tuner. I didn't know about the hammer thing.

[1911Tuner]

Thanks for that info Tuner. I didn't know about the hammer thing.

Y'welcome, Joni.

I usually don't advise to overbend the extractor on the forums...mainly because inexperienced tweakers don't know that there's a fine line between just enough and a little too much. If the steel is stressed beyond its elastic limit...and then straightened...and then re-bent, etc...it work-hardens and weakens at the point of stress and fails prematurely. Better to have to retension every 5-10,000 rounds than to have to buy a new extractor and start over again at 2500.

So...Until you develop a "feel" for the sweet spot...go slow.

[wichaka]

Like Garrett, when I adjust/bend extractors....there's always been tension at both ends when finished.

Can't recall a sloppy extractor at the tail end.

[garrettwc]

I usually don't advise to overbend the extractor on the forums...mainly because inexperienced tweakers don't know that there's a fine line between just enough and a little too much.
For those of us that are hammer challenged(like me), do you recommend another tool for getting the extractor set right?

[1911Tuner]

For those of us that are hammer challenged(like me), do you recommend another tool for getting the extractor set right?


Maybe a 2-ounce tack hammer...

[garrettwc]

Maybe a 2-ounce tack hammer...
LOL :D

Well I meant something more like the Weigand jig, but a tack hammer would work too.

[1911Tuner]

Well I meant something more like the Weigand jig,

Oh, Sure. You can use those. They work nicely, but you don't shock the steel. Not a necessity, though. Just and added touch that seems to work toward maintaining tension over the long haul.
I've got extractors that have seen 75,000+ rounds that have never lost tension from the initial set.

A couple years ago, there was a thread somewhere...about a guy who made up an extractor bending jig that worked like Wiegand's from some plumbing parts that he bought at Lowe's or Home Depot...for about 3 bucks. He reported that it worked just fine.

[Coastie Doc]

Wow, I did not think my question would get this much feedback. I've been underway working buoys in the snow and training for the past couple of days. So it sounds like Wilsons are good-to-go and I've learned some new tricks for tensioning the extractor. Thanks.

[1911Tuner]

Welcome, Doc.

You may get lucky and find out that all it needs is a little bending for tension...but don't count on it. That happens maybe 3 times in 10. The others can be educational and...memorable. :)

[twin oaks]

Umm, pardon me for getting in on this so late in the discussion, but....regarding needing tension on both ends of the extractor: If the pistol is built correctly, there's this little thingy called a Firing Pin Stop on the back of the pistol that should be fitted to the pistol to provide a good friction fit on the extractor. If that's done, it keeps the aft end of the extractor in the same place no matter what kind of spring tension you put on it. With the back of the extractor effectively pinned in place ( large flat pin...with a small radius on part of it) any tension a person tries to impart on BOTH ends of the extractor will now be transfered to the claw end of the extractor. So, in trying to tension both ends, you've gone around your elbow to get to your thumb.

Johnny, when you shock the steel, is that basically a quick version of hardening then tempering? I've wondered if a weak spring could be annealed, re-wound/ shaped, hardened, and then tempered. I've got a bad mag spring I was gonna play with, but haven't got my replacement yet, so it hasn't happened. I understand that just over stretching it won't do for the long term, but if it was stretched and re-tempered...
Thoughts on this?

[1911Tuner]

Umm, pardon me for getting in on this so late in the discussion, but....regarding needing tension on both ends of the extractor: If the pistol is built correctly, there's this little thingy called a Firing Pin Stop on the back of the pistol that should be fitted to the pistol to provide a good friction fit on the extractor.

Not at all.

If the pistol is built to ordnance specs, the firing pin stop doesn't press fit. It's fairly loose. Remember that the pistol was designed to be easily disassembled and serviced in the field.

Two...and I'll try to draw a picture with words so you can better understand it.

The extractor slides into a round hole that's larger than its largest diameter. A little bend effectively makes the extractor larger by placing the ends into contact with the inner wall of the channel, and the center into contact with the outer wall. That's the function of the center "Dog Knots" on the stem.

A good friction fit of the extractor keeps it in position and accomplishes a couple of things important to reliable feed and consistent ejection. When the extractor clocks...ejection becomes erratic, and often gets in the way of clean, smooth cartridge rim pickup as the cartridge slips up the breechface and releases. As the round releases, the mag spring helps it to break over to horizontal. If the tensioning wall is "clocked", it creates a barrier to that function.

Making the extractor as tight in the channel as possible without so much bend that the rim can't slide under the claw, you stablize it better. If...on the other hand...the extractor can slip fore and aft, and rotate in one direction and then the other during the cycle...you have inconsistencies that don't lend themselves to reliable, repeatable function. SInce the firing pin stop is correctly a slip-fit to allow for easy disassembly...the only method avaialable is a press-fit of the extractor.

When I fit a firing pin stop, I don't make it so tight that it requires a punch and three hands to remove it. It doesn't need to be that tight. All it needs is to touch the bottom of the extractor slot and work to keep it stable. If it's so tight that I can't move it with the hammer strut or the sear pin...it's way yonder too tight.

[twin oaks]

I think we're saying the same thing, but I might be mussing things up with my lack of proper terminology.
I certainly didn't mean that a hydraulic press should be needed to install the FPS, but that it should be fitted tightly enough to fully engage the slot at the rear of the extractor, and prevent movement. Nor should it be so loosely fitted that it falls out if the the FP gets hung up on some gunk and doesn't return properly. ( I think that was a concern on another thread). As to function- I gotcha on smaller diameter extractor in larger diameter extractor tunnel- but when the FPS is installed, doesn't it make the outer wall of the rear of the extractor contact the outer wall of the tunnel? Or is it just spring tension that holds the extractor against the FPS? I checked my '91A1, and the extractor seems to be contacting the outer wall at the rear. I guess it would really depend on the exactness of the machining of the inner face of the notch. A thousandth or two too much metal left on the slot would have the effect of pushing the outer wall of the extractor to the outer wall of the tunnel.
So the way it should work is that the geometry of the extractor would more or less use the light bend of the extractor as a lever, with the center "dog knot" acting as the fulcrum, keeping the depth engagement area behind the claw in contact with the inner wall of the extractor tunnel at the breech face? Result : constant tension, with the ability to flex when needed.
So far I haven't had any problems with mine, but I'll keep it in mind if I ever do. Thanks for the post grad. education.

[1911Tuner]

So the way it should work is that the geometry of the extractor would more or less use the light bend of the extractor as a lever, with the center "dog knot" acting as the fulcrum, keeping the depth engagement area behind the claw in contact with the inner wall of the extractor tunnel at the breech face? Result : constant tension, with the ability to flex when needed.

Bingo. I also like to reduce the outboard dog knot by a few thousandths so I can use more bend and make the extractor behave more like a spring. Modern-day extractors tend to be a little too unyielding to do that. Some are worse than others. Some aren't a problem at all...and it can vary quite a bit even with the same vendor.

[WildRice]

Anyone have experience with the Aftec dual spring extractor? It fits in a stock extractor tunnel and applies spring loaded tension to the claw. I asked my gunsmith what the best extractor was and this is what he recommended. He installs it in his top of the line competition 45's. It costs $75, so I can't afford to put it in all of my M1911's. I might try one and test it. I have a Para P1445 "Big Hawg" with a "power extractor" that functions very well and has a 50% larger claw. It is non-standard in size. It can be retrofitted by Para I believe. They probably have to redrill the extractor tunnel. I don't recommend going that far, but it is a nice feature on recent Para's.

[drummer]

Tuner,

It seems like a steel bench block would be better for that technique than a synthetic one, is that correct?

[1911Tuner]

It seems like a steel bench block would be better for that technique than a synthetic one, is that correct?

I use a mahcinist's "V" block that I made about 20 years ago, but ...yes. Steel is better than nylon.

Anyone have experience with the Aftec dual spring extractor?

Never used one, but I've replaced a few with standard extractors after they stopped workin' for some of the shooters during a match, and there weren't any extra springs for'em. Funny...for one guy's pistol, I used a spare that I pulled out of a Colt when I rebuilt it. Had about 75K on it, and I replaced it because it just seemed like the thing to do since I was doin' a full rebuild on the gun. That was about 3 years ago, and when I talked to him 2 weeks ago...it was still in his gun.

AFTEK and Power Extractors...My thoughts are that they're answers in search of a question. Some swear by'em. I just never saw the need for spending that much money to replace a part that's been working well for nearly a century.

I especially like Para's ad campaign. "If your pistol doesn't have this extractor...you NEED this pistol!"

Oldest marketing ploy on the books. Convince the customer that he needs it...and then sell it to him.

An extractor made of fine-grained 1090 steel...hardened and drawn to a spring temper...should outlast the gun, assuming that it's correctly installed and the shooter uses proper magazines.

If the gun is timed correctly, the extractor doesn't undergo a lot of stress when extracting...and if the magazines don't lose control of the cartridges and force the claw to climb over the rim when it chambers it...it doesn't suffer. There are even a good many 1911 pistols that will run surprisingly well without an extractor at all. Ejection is erratic...but they run. In these few, the extractor serves mainly as a means to keep the case on the slide until it hits the ejector.

[Dave Berryhill]

...Lay it on a V-block with the center pad about halfway between the supports....Use a 4-ounce hammer to bump the extractor in the middle...because steel "memorizes" the new shape a little better if it's subjected to shock...
I use the same method although I lay the extractor across the open jaws of a vise. It seems to take much more force with the hammer to bend the extractor than to unbend it.

My friend, pistolsmith Hilton Yam, also repairs and maintains a fleet of 1911s for a large law enforcement agency. He would love to find an external or spring-loaded extractor that works since it would be much easier to maintain or replace them on the large number of guns that he cares for. Unfortunately, he hasn't found one that works as well in the 1911 platform as Moe Browning's internal extractor. The AFTEC is probably the closest thing but it does require fitting to make it work and the tiny springs are easy to loose in the field.

Likewise, the Para Ord power extractor is an interesting design but the materials and overall quality of the parts are lacking. I really wanted to like that extractor but the failure rate is too high for a duty or self defense pistol IMO.

[1911Tuner]

It seems to take much more force with the hammer to bend the extractor than to unbend it.

Dave...Do ya let it sit for a few hours before the final fit/tweak? I usually get a half-dozen at a time, and do'em all. By the time I get around to'em...they're pretty tough to straighten out. Springy...

[Dave Berryhill]

Dave...Do ya let it sit for a few hours before the final fit/tweak? I usually get a half-dozen at a time, and do'em all. By the time I get around to'em...they're pretty tough to straighten out. Springy...

Naw, I don't have that kind of patience. I need instant gratification! :D

Actually, I never thought about letting one "age" before. I'll have to give it a try.

[auto45]

My friend, pistolsmith Hilton Yam, also repairs and maintains a fleet of 1911s for a large law enforcement agency. He would love to find an external or spring-loaded extractor that works since it would be much easier to maintain or replace them on the large number of guns that he cares for. Unfortunately, he hasn't found one that works as well in the 1911 platform as Moe Browning's internal extractor.

I've read his articles and they are very interesting and worthwhile. His comments on internal extractors seem to indicate they need "almost" constant tuning, watching and replacement. I know that hasn't been my experience and many others with round counts from 5,000-50,000+...very little "tuning" and no breakage. And yet, you'll read about constant breakage, tuning etc. It would be interesting to know what kind of 1911s "they buy", make of extractors, ammo, etc.

Because I "don't get it"...meaning the disparity of "opinions". ;) There is no shortage of quality extractors and ability to "fit them".

I'm wondering if the type of ammo, spring rates, mag style(the feeding cycle) is "causing" the premature demise of some internal extractors. Ammo too hot?
Spring heavy?

In addition to Tuner's long-lived extractors, I've read from several respected and well known "smith" of "some" people never breaking extractors and "some" breaking them all the time...all high round counts, fitted extractors, etc.

Don't get it...but mine work great. :p

[1911Tuner]

I've read his articles and they are very interesting and worthwhile. His comments on internal extractors seem to indicate they need "almost" constant tuning,

I'm wondering if the type of ammo, spring rates, mag style(the feeding cycle) is "causing" the premature demise of some internal extractors. Ammo too hot?
Spring heavy?

It's very likely because the proponents of "constant tuning" continue to use improper magazines that don't adequately control the last round or two and cause push-feeding and the resultant extractor snap-over malfunction. That's hard on extractors that were never intended to do that on a regular basis...and conversely...one of the main reasons that mine act like that drum-beatin' rabbit in the battery ads.

When the claw is forced to climb the case rim, tension tends to go south quickly, and the repeated rebending/straightening cycles work-harden the steel...which eventually leads to breakage.

Oversprung slides contribute to the loss of cartridge control. Mr. Yam is doubtless a knowledgeable and talented wrench...but he and many others in his position are still in denial over the fact that John Browning really did know what he was doing.

I did an experiment once to demonstrate the difference in magazine design...to a friend of mine who was also in denial. He kept bringing his pistols back to me with extractor problems. All were identical in every way. They were Metalform 7-round magazines with wadcutter feed lips.

I picked 20 of my own magazines that were due for a refreshing. 10 of them got new Wolff springs and new 7-round standard design followers. The other 10 kept their old springs...and I filed the dimples off the tops of the worn followers...and assigned one group to each pistol. Both pistols started with fresh, tuned extractors. The guy was and is a fairly heavy shooter, burning up as much as 3,000 rounds a month on average.

The extractor in the pistol that was used with good magazines never gave a problem.
Feeding, extraction, ejection was as clean and as consistent at the end of the test as it was in the begining.

The other one began to lose tension within 3500 rounds...causing erratic ejection...and occasional stovepipe failures to eject by the time it hit the 5,000-round mark. I reset the tension and sent him back for more. At somewhere around the 7500 round mark...the hook snapped off.

I removed the followers and replaced them with new followers....old springs remained.
They didn't have quite the oomph of new springs, but still appeared to be adequate.
I installed a new extractor in the gun. 10,000 rounds later, the gun hadn't hicupped.
Not once.

Another thing that'll cause a loss of tension is the case rim itself. Many guys...me included...recycle brass beyond its useful life much of the time. With every firing, the rim diameter expands under the pounding against the breechface. As the rims grow, they flex the extractor farther to the right. An occasional over-flexing won't hurt a thing...but 12-15 thousand cycles will cause the extractor to "re-learn" its new
setting. No problem as long as the overly-large rims stay in service...but if new brass is introduced into the lot...problems start to crop up.

This leads the shooter to retension his extractor on the new brass. Problem two comes when well-beaten brass goes into the gun. Since the larger diameter rims effectively increase the extractor's applied tension...and sluggish or outright failures to return to battery occur randomly.

Which brings us back to:

Magazines. A correctly tuned, good quality extractor. Good ammunition. The tripod of reliability.

Oh. And acceptance of the fact that John Moe was a pretty sharp cookie.

[Ben H]

Tuner:

Outstanding info on extractors. Can you advise the best way of tensioning the extractor in regards to weight in pounds? I have the brass shims that slide under the extractor and used with a trigger pull gage.

Thanks!!!

[1911Tuner]

Can you advise the best way of tensioning the extractor in regards to weight in pounds?

Ben...I wish I could, but I've never used those. I guess I'm like an old country cook who uses a "Pinch of this" and a "Smidgen of that" ingredients instead of going by a recipe...and I've always just gone by the seat of my pants when I set'em up. Very old-school. One of those things that I understand how to do...but have a hard time describing via the printed word.

Ever seen an old mechanic who can set your ignition timing by ear, and the car runs better than when it's set by the book? Kinda like that.

[auto45]

Thanks Tuner.

I remember reading from you about some 1911s extracting without the extractor, due to the chamber pressure and "timing". Possible that some of these are trying to extract the casing with too much chamber pressure left??

[1911Tuner]

I remember reading from you about some 1911s extracting without the extractor, due to the chamber pressure and "timing". Possible that some of these are trying to extract the casing with too much chamber pressure left??

Possibly. The trick requires just enough residual pressure to blow the case out. It's not one of those things that you see very often...but often enough. Oddly, I've seen it happen more often with Browning Hi-Powers than 1911s. Given the working pressures, that seems backward...but there it is.

[F.D. Coonrod]

Tuner, I've read from, talked to, listened to any number of experts, would be experts, claim to be experts, etc. and I have to say that you've taught me more, accidently, through this forum than all the rest put together! You always make sense, and I always say, "That was pretty simple! Why didn't I see that?" Thanks for sharing your considerable wisdom with those of us who want to learn. Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[1911Tuner]

Thanks F.D. I've always tried to take the "Occam's Razor" approach.

To wit:

The simplest answer is usually the best one.

[wichaka]

Tuner:

Outstanding info on extractors. Can you advise the best way of tensioning the extractor in regards to weight in pounds? I have the brass shims that slide under the extractor and used with a trigger pull gage.

Thanks!!!

Approx. 1 1/2 - 2 lbs seems to be the right amount. I started checking that after doing a few extractor jobs a few years back, just to see what actual lb tension there was.
Anything more or less than that, I tend to see problems. Of course as long as everything else is in spec.

[4sfed]

Approx. 1 1/2 - 2 lbs seems to be the right amount. I started checking that after doing a few extractor jobs a few years back, just to see what actual lb tension there was.
Anything more or less than that, I tend to see problems. Of course as long as everything else is in spec.Wichaka,

Is that the tension to pull out the shim or the actural tension on the extractor? Any drawings or photos to explain the setup?

Thanks,
Jim

[Ben H]

Thanks for the replies Tuner and Wichaka!! In regards to the fitting pad that comes oversized on some extractors, what's the proper way to fit this pad if you can't get enough extractor tension? I'm assuming you remove a little at a time until proper tension is obtained?

Thanks in Advance!!!

[1911Tuner]

In regards to the fitting pad that comes oversized on some extractors, what's the proper way to fit this pad if you can't get enough extractor tension? I'm assuming you remove a little at a time until proper tension is obtained?

Howdy Ben.

Tension is applied by the amount of bend...or deflection in the stem itself. Reducing the pad moves the claw colser to the breechface centerline so that the bottom of the claw...aka the "Tensioning wall" for lack of a more descriptive term...and bear on the case rim. If the rim doesn't contact the wall, or just barely so...you can tension the extractor all you want and you won't get proper function.

The hitch is to not reduce it too much. There's a limit. If toomuch is removed, the tensioning area juts out and in the way of the case rim, which makes it difficult for it to move up the breechface. The small bevel that most smiths cut on the extractor is an aid to smooth rim pickup. Moving the claw too far inboard defeats that.

So...Use all due caution and patience.

[niemi24s]

Hi 4sfed: In a Tech Tips article on the Brownells web site, Jack Weigand writes he sets extractors so 25 to 28 ounces is needed to pull the Weigand extractor tension gauge out from under the extractor (not to pull the extractor away from the gauge)

Lacking the Weigand gauge, the same force (pull) measurement can be made on an empty case stuck or screwed to the end of a wooden dowel. Put the case rim under the extractor with the dowel sticking through the barrel bushing with a loop of string at the rear of the case to hook on the force (tension) gauge.

Went this route because the tension's measured using the real thing (a case) and I'm basically an old-fashioned tightskate and cheapwad! Cheers

[wichaka]

I made my own shims years ago out of a new in-spec 45 case head. Then pull it out from under the extractor like the shims that are made by Weigand.

If you're in the the range I mentioned, you should be fine.

[4sfed]

Hi 4sfed: In a Tech Tips article on the Brownells web site, Jack Weigand writes he sets extractors so 25 to 28 ounces is needed to pull the Weigand extractor tension gauge out from under the extractor (not to pull the extractor away from the gauge)

Lacking the Weigand gauge, the same force (pull) measurement can be made on an empty case stuck or screwed to the end of a wooden dowel. Put the case rim under the extractor with the dowel sticking through the barrel bushing with a loop of string at the rear of the case to hook on the force (tension) gauge.

Went this route because the tension's measured using the real thing (a case) and I'm basically an old-fashioned tightskate and cheapwad! Cheers
Thanks for the explanation . . . and I like the idea of using a case instead of the Weigand gauge . . . because I don't have to wait (and it's cheap). And I like multipurpose tools. My tension measurements are taken with the points tension gauge from my Sun distributor test machine. -Jim