Cartridge in front of extractor

[deercop]

Weapon: Colt Gunsite 5", bought used but like new.

Round count: At present, approx. 500

Problem: At a previous range session, several times (approx 4 out of 200 rounds) using my handload 200 LSWC, the cartridge would be stuck with the nose into the chamber, and the primer end of the cartridge up (out the top of the port) at approx 45 degrees, pressed against the breechface. I was not attempting to remember which mag(s) this occurred in at that session, but I only took the 2 mags that came with the weapon, and one additional Wilson 47D.

At yesterday's range session, this malfunction occurred twice, each time w/ Fed Hydrashok 230 gr., at the last round out of each factory supplied Wilson mag. I fired a remaining approx. 200 rounds of assorted ammo through other Wilson 47D mags, w/o incident.

Attempted diagnostics: During slow hand chambering of rounds, with assorted Wilson and McCormick mags, the round always pops from the mag in front of the extractor, but usually (but not always) seats before complete chambering. I noted the same mags always allowed controlled feeding in my other Colt, a SCG.

Attempted solutions: These were tried off the range, just using the above mentioned hand chambering. I tried an assortment of mags (Wilson, McCormick, and a Kimber). I tried swapping extractors from my SCG and swapping frames from the SCG. I tried a questionable Wilson extractor I found in my stuff.

I know hand chambering isn't the same as chambering during live fire. However, the problem materialized during live fire, and the hand chambering is my rudimentary attempt at diagnosing the problem.

[1911Tuner]

Magazine issue. Usually due to insufficient spring tension, and more likely to occur on the bottom rounds than when the mag is topped off. If it's a last-round only burp...the lack of a cartridge movement arresting dimple on the follower is also a prime contributor. Inertia during recoil/slide function is causing the cartridge to "jump" the magazine or follower. Technically, the round isn't jumping so much as the pistol is being yanked out from under it. (See Newton 1B: Objects at rest tend to remain at rest.)

Overspringing the slide is also a player, but not normally a sole cause. It works in conjunction with a magazine malfunction to make it more likely and/or more frequent.

[NightVision]

Hey Tuner, I was pondering that same notion. Well said there good doctor.

[1911Tuner]

I was pondering that same notion.

What can I say? Grat minds and all that... ;)

Deercop...This may help in your search for a better understanding.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=11580&highlight=Inertia%21

[NightVision]

Just another little ditty to add of my own to tuners excellent description. When you load the ammo into the mag, sometimes not all the ammo is in alignment with the rear of the mag. This also can cause irratic problems with the presentation of the bullet to the breachface and alter the timing of the feed during the stripping process.

After loading the mag with ammo, tap the back of the mag against something to align all the ammo towards the rear of the mag. Now, all the ammo is in the proper position to be extracted. This extra step will insure a more reliable presentation of the ammo to the breachface. Hope this helps. ......Happy shooting........WH.

[1911Tuner]

After loading the mag with ammo, tap the back of the mag against something to align all the ammo towards the rear of the mag.

Won't help. When the first round fires, it'll all head for the front. That inertia thing is like Murphy. It's everywhere, and it turns up in the dangedest places...

[NightVision]

Use longer bullets.

[1911Tuner]

Use longer bullets.

Then they'll be too long to function through the magazine...

:D

Seriously...Tapping the magazine to seat the cartridges doesn't do much for feed function after the top round...and even that's questionable as to how much good it does. Of course, it can't hurt anything, and when the slide moves rearward, the center rail will drag the top round backward with it anyway...

[niemi24s]

. . . and when the slide moves rearward, the center rail will drag the top round backward with it anyway...

Is it possible to make the slide center rail too smooth - too smooth to effectively drag the top round back to the rear of the magazine?

Remembered seeing advice somewhere to polish the center rail to prevent unnecessary wear on the disconnector and got to wondering . . . :)

Cheers

[NightVision]

Thanks tuner for your reply. Sorry to have hijacked the thread. I will start a new thread in the ammo and reloading forum with this subject. I will call it maximum OAL. Join me there and we will kick this around a while. .......Happy shooting.........WH.

[1911Tuner]

Is it possible to make the slide center rail too smooth - too smooth to effectively drag the top round back to the rear of the magazine?

mmmmmaybe on the last round, when mag spring tension is at a minimum...but probably not even then with a good mag spring.


Thanks tuner for your reply. Sorry to have hijacked the thread.

Nah. You didn't hijack it. Just the natural progression of this discussion.

I will start a new thread in the ammo and reloading forum with this subject. I will call it maximum OAL.

For hardball...1.275 inch. I prefer 1.250-1.260 for smoothest function.

Truncated cone FP/HP...Most seems to run best at 1.220-1.225 inch. Hollowpoint with a round, hardball-ish ogive...around 1.210-1.215 inch works. Hensley & Gibbs #68 200-grain SWC wants to shine at 1.235-1.240 inch, with about a 32nd inch of shoulder above the case mouth, assuming a minimum-spec case length of .888 inch.

I'll copy/paste all that onto your thread.

[NightVision]

Had some buisness to attend to, sorry for the delay. I put a posting there so lets kick it.

[deercop]

For those interested, I am presently of the decision that it was the extractor, but probably not strictly a tension problem. I ordered a new Ed Brown hardcore extractor, as well as the Weigand tension gauges. There is a slight visual difference is dimensions/length at the hook end between the Brown and the stock extractors. Stock extractor was showing 4 oz. Currently the extractor is set at 16 oz of tension, within the published recommended range of 12-20 oz. Preliminary testing shows flawless performance, further testing will obviously be required before conclusions are established.

Thanks for the help.

[1911Tuner]

I am presently of the decision that it was the extractor, but probably not strictly a tension problem.


It's not. It's a magazine issue. A new, tuned extractor may allow the hook tosnap over the rim and go to battery...which will seem like the problem has been corrected...but it'll rear up again in the form of loss of tension and/or extractor breakage.

Luck!

[berkbw]

depending on the forward surface of the extractor, is it not counter-intuitive that a low tensioned extractor would fail to "snap-over" and a high-tension one wouldn't?

I know my logic is at fault, but how?

b-

[1911Tuner]

is it not counter-intuitive that a low tensioned extractor would fail to "snap-over" and a high-tension one wouldn't?

Depends on several factors...some related.

The angle on the nose of the extractor. The amount of bend to get the correct tension. The distance from the tensioning wall to the breechface centerline. Whether the channel is dead straight or angled. The length of the claw from the tip to the tensioning wall. The ID of the channel/OD of the center pads...and how easily or how far the stem will flex as it picks up the rim. The stiffness of the stem...how much resistance it offers/how easily will it yield to over-flexing when the claw hits the back of the rim.

Many things determine it. The only sure bet is to work toward not letting the cartridge get loose from the magazine until the extractor has a grip on it. Controlled feed means controlled from the instant the slide picks it up until the slide is in battery.

John Browning specified that dimple and the mag spring tension for some very good reasons.

[deercop]

1911tuner,

Are you of the opinion that the Wilson 8-round mags are the true culprit? If so, by virtue of the design, or by a weak spring?

If the spring is at fault, do Wilson's have a reputation for weak springs, or is it primarily a "wear/use" issue?

[1911Tuner]

Are you of the opinion that the Wilson 8-round mags are the true culprit? If so, by virtue of the design, or by a weak spring?

Yep...and it's not opinion. Weak springs and springs that lose their strength rapidly...coupled with the smooth-topped follower, and possibly with an oversprung slide will cause the rounds to get ahead of the extractor. Much more likely to occur on the last round, if the spring is soft enough, it can happen about anywhere in the mag...espeically if the slide is over sprung.

Are you close enough to me to make the drive?

[deercop]

Not sure what part of NC you're in, but the closest part is about 8 hours from me. I live in Alabama, on the far side.

I put about 250 rounds through it this afternoon. No malfunctions. I did notice that when using some Cylinder-Slide 7 round mags, ejection seemed more forceful, but I thought it might have been my imagination.

Would you suggest ordering replacement springs (Wolff extra power) for the Wilson mags?

[1911Tuner]

Not sure what part of NC you're in, but the closest part is about 8 hours from me. I live in Alabama, on the far side.

A 'Bama boy! A'ight! My stepson is down there right now...headed home this weekend. He went down in August to stay with his daddy to get some work experience. He's between Leighton and Muscle Shoals. My ol' man was born in Bibb County...so we're practically kin.

An extra-power Wolff spring will help a lot, but it's only half the equation. The follower still needs a positive stop for that critical last round.

I've never had much use for any 8-round magazine, up until Check-Mate came up with a design that has really impressed me. They offer it with either the wadcutter-type feed lips or the "hybrid"...or tapered/gradual release lips. Of the two, the hybrid design will give you the best chance at reliable feed in any given gun. If yours feeds okay with the other style, it's a toss-up.

I don't know how well the Check-Mate 8-round patented follower will work in the Wilson body...but somebody else here may be able to swap the internals into one and
report on their findings. If it's a drop-in swap...it would be well worth the few bucks to order a follower and a spring from'em and try it.

[deercop]

My in-laws live in Florence. Small world, ain't it?

Thanks for the help!

[1911Tuner]

Check your PMs 'Bama.

[irq23]

Deercop:

I agree with some of the others in that you probably have a magazine issue. Check this thread: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=35407
Read the part I wrote about Wilson mags.