trigger job question from a dunce

[colubrid]

I am having an experienced armorer do a trigger job on a three of my 1911's Which includes 2 Colts and a series 1 Kimber. He charges $100. and supplies the trigger. .

Couple questions (and it's obvious I have never detail stripped a 1911 :eek: )

1) I want to know what parts can be replaced while he is doing this work that won't cost me extra.
What non mim parts should/can I provide him with while he is doing this? Can I get a sear, disconector from, lets say, Ed Brown, and would that be an extra charge for him to install? Does he have to do any extra work? Is that all I need to have replaced?


2) what weight should i have the trigger set at? All these guns will be (CCW'd) carried often.

3) I also asked him if I provided my own trigger what the cost would be and he got a bit indignant and asked me why i wanted to do this. I said to save money. He then said why mess with the process since he is familiar with the type of triggers he installs. Is this a normal response from an 1911 armorer?

[pa_guns]

Hi

Parts involved directly in the trigger system:

Hammer
Sear
Trigger
Sear spring
Disconnector

To a lesser extent:

Thumb safety
Grip Safety
Series 80 or equivalent parts
Various pins
Frame
Slide

I would shoot for a 5 to 6 pound trigger.

If I was in the trigger job business, the price would be dependent on the parts involved. A working trigger system would be the most economical. Anything past that would add cost.

Unless you have specific problems, I don't see any major reason to start throwing away parts from inside a Colt. The only obvious exception might be a plastic MSH. Not for any good reason, just anti-plastic bigotry.

Bob

[colubrid]

If I was in the trigger job business, the price would be dependent on the parts involved. A working trigger system would be the most economical. Anything past that would add cost.

I am not sure what you mean. (probably because i am not aware of whats involved in a trigger job) Are you saying that trigger parts come in a package that need no fitting? Like drop in job? Do you mean more expensive jobs would involve more stoning, deburring and fitting?

So the only parts I might want to replace are the sear and disconector, since they are the only MIM parts involved in a Colt trigger job, right?

[niemi24s]

As for your question #3, that would be the normal response from a competent 1911 pistolsmith. You may certainly specify the length of the trigger shoe, its style (the appearance aspect), whether or not you want an overtravel adjustment, and perhaps even the manufacturer.

But, your 'smith probably has his own preferences as far as the manufacturer based on his/her experience. And, he or she probably was insulted a bit thinking you're trying to save a few bucks by supplying the trigger.

If this 'smith doesn't want to obtain and use the kind of trigger you want, then find another 'smith that will or do the work yourself.

These words from an amateur shade-tree gun plumber. Cheers

[wichaka]

Any 'smith should take the time to answer any questions you should have, and go over the parts they will use and why.

But then, that's the way I do things...........

[sevenL4]

Since you do not know what a 'trigger job' is and don't know your armorer's definition of a 'trigger job', I think you should do some research. You and he need to agree on terms. This forum is loaded with information and may help you to determine if you are getting your $$ worth. IMHO a trigger job does not require replacing the trigger itself. It means that all the parts which pa guns listed are brought to specifications and that they work in combination. I have done plenty of 'trigger jobs' without changing parts, only re-configuring the slightly. I think a 3lb trigger pull is plenty safe for someone who trains with a 1911 and if your armorer has not told you in advance what weight he is going for, I would not settle (pay) for a pull weight over 3.5 lbs. As to you supplying parts, you need to understand how mark-up works. I don't mind if you specify parts, if I think they are of good quality, but leave it to me to order them and add a reasonable profit. I may be getting a much better price break from a supplier with whom I do a lot of business.

[colubrid]

I think a 3lb trigger pull is plenty safe for someone who trains with a 1911 and if your armorer has not told you in advance what weight he is going for, I would not settle (pay) for a pull weight over 3.5 lbs


I have been doing a lot of reading over the years and on this site. The consensus seems to be a trigger pull over 4lbs for carry guns, no?


I think what my armorer meant by using his parts was that its a half dozen and the other. Parts are part and what matters how well the trigger feels. Since he is used to working with his brand that it would be a better (easier) job. He does really great work and even the top smiths rave about him.

[Hawkmoon]

It usually isn't necessary to replace anything to achieve a good carry trigger. A clean, crisp 5-pound trigger feels a lot lighter than a gritty, creepy 3-pound trigger. If you intend to carry, tell him to set them for 5 pounds. Even if you will carry only one, remember the expression "You fight as you train." All your pistols should shoot the same, so that muscle memory will be consistent from one pistol to another.

[robot1911]

A good 'smith should not object to discussing parts with you, or prices. If you're going to pay a hundred bucks each for 3 trigger jobs, I recommend you just let him use the ones he prefers.
And, as a 'seasoned' gunsmith and a retired cop, I agree about the 5# trigger on each of your carry guns. Anything lighter just won't get it. If you get into a situation where you may have to pull that trigger, you want to have enough resistance so you KNOW you're pulling it. Believe me, adrenalin will do strange things to the trigger finger!

Bob

[sevenL4]

A 'crisp 5 pound trigger' is a cop-out. If your smith can't deliver a dependable 3.5 pound trigger he needs to go back to school. Once the 3.5 is achieved, it is a simple matter to increase the pull weight. I'm a seasoned 1911 mechanic and retired LEO. I never accidentally shot anyone with my 1911. My personal experience tells me that a 50 pound trigger would not be noticeable in some circumstances.

[colubrid]

I just talked to Bob (http://www.bobscustomfirearms.com/) and he reccomended a 3.5 trigger for carry.

[NightVision]

Hi coulbrid, In response to your question, I concur with pa guns and hawkmoon on this one. I train in defensive mode. I set my trigger to a crisp 5# pull. it works for me, may not be right for you. Visit the smith and let him demonstrate to you with one of his guns to compare his pull setup against yours. You decide if the difference is beneficial for you.

I buy long solid aluminium triggers and profile them to fit my grip and finger location on the trigger. If the smith does not ask about the trigger shoe length, how can he tailor the trigger that is best for you? You want a trigger shoe length that reduces side loading on the trigger when you pull it. This increases consistency and accuracy. I remove the overtravel screw altogether to allow full overtravel. I also use the full trigger takeup to my advantage also. These are all tips for you to consider before laying out your hard earned money.

[wichaka]

If the smith does not ask about the trigger shoe length, how can he tailor the trigger that is best for you? You want a trigger shoe length that reduces side loading on the trigger when you pull it. This increases consistency and accuracy. I remove the overtravel screw altogether to allow full overtravel. I also use the full trigger takeup to my advantage also. These are all tips for you to consider before laying out your hard earned money.


Very well said........

The length of the trigger shoe, grips, and MSH, all factor into giving you the proper grip and trigger pull on the gun.

[NightVision]

Sorry I spelt your screen name wrong there "colubrid". I will try to do better with the spelling in the future.

Hey wichaka, Thanks for the roses in your reply. My senior members here on this M1911.org forum have taught me well. How about some spellin' lessons?

Good luck and happy shooting...............WH.

[Canuck-IL]

I just talked to Bob (http://www.bobscustomfirearms.com/) and he reccomended a 3.5 trigger for carry.
I think that makes him a club of approximately 1 ... go to a range or visit a Bullseye club and try a few light, smooth trigger jobs, then decide for yourself. Don't forget to add in an allowance to compensate for adrenaline overload.
/Bryan

[pa_guns]

Hi

Coming back to your original question.

Milled bar stock disconnectors are a hard thing to find. A cast or NIM disconnector is a very common thing in a modern pistol. I would not worry a lot about switching out a working disconnector.

A sear made out of a good grade of steel is worth the money. It is likely to hold an edge longer than a sear made from who knows what. If you really want to switch something out, make it the sear. If you do so, I'll be first in line for the "reject" Colt sears - they usually are fine stuff.

Trigger pull weights are a matter of much debate. We have been through the discussion a number of times. It's really two very different questions.

The first question - how light can a 1911 trigger get before it's simply unsafe no matter what you are doing? The number depends on the specific pistol and how closely you watch that pistol. It's certainly below numbers that commonly get mentioned here on the forum. I have owned 1911's with *very* light triggers on them. Never had one go "full auto".

The second question - how light a trigger makes sense for carry? This is a function of how well you are trained. It's also a function of weather you use more than one pistol. Having one 3 lb pistol and another at 6 is not a good idea. Five pounds seems to be a reasonable compromise between accuracy and safety.

Bob

[sevenL4]

I would not argue what pull weight is proper for anyone but myself. I stand by what I stated previously. If the 'smith can't produce a smooth, consistent, dependable 3.5 lb. pull, he needs to go to school. If the user chooses to increase the pull weight, it's his option. Adrenaline overload should not cause an individual to go against training. The rule is to keep one's finger out of the trigger guard until it's time to shoot.

[colubrid]

It seems that one smith (George Harrison) says replcing the sear, hammer and sear spring are basic to a good trigger job.

http://www.harrisoncustom.com/TextDesc/Ignition.htm

I may just go with a sear from Ed Brown and have my smith (Bob custom firearms) use that instead of the colts sear.

One question from PA though. Why would you want the Colts sear if it is a mim part?

[Ping Ping]

It seems that one smith (George Harrison) says replcing the sear, hammer and sear spring are basic to a good trigger job.

http://www.harrisoncustom.com/TextDesc/Ignition.htm

I may just go with a sear from Ed Brown and have my smith (Bob custom firearms) use that instead of the colts sear.

One question from PA though. Why would you want the Colts sear if it is a mim part?

George Harrison was a very mediocre, yet surprisingly able lead guitarist for a band called "The Beatles." To the best of my knowledge, he never touched a pistol. However, he did play a minimalist riff on, "Happiness is a Warm Gun," and played on an album called, "Revolver", with the same band.

JOHN Harrison, of harrisoncustom.com, on the other hand, is one of the worlds most renowned 1911 smiths. He is among the most prefered in the business. If he says that a sear replacement is integral to his best trigger work... buy a sear. (He is also known for not selling people things they don't need.)

Colt's sears are not MIM.

All of my pistols are set to a 3.5lb trigger pull. It's what works for me.

[colubrid]

George,,John whatever. Those names all blend to me. Cool names like 50 Cent, Busta Rhymes and Eminem would not be as confusing.

You said the Colts sears are not MIM? If that is true I would not get a sear.

But I got this info off a sticky here. Chill :cool: :


How Colt 1911 pistol are made:

MIM
sear
mag catch
disconnector


CAST
Thumb safety
grip safety

FORGED
slide
receiver
barrel
slide stop

MACHINED from bar stock
hammer
all pins
bbl link
bbl bushing
trigger finger piece
ejector
firing pin
firing pin stop
extractor
plunger tube

[colubrid]

My new main carry gun that I am having worked on is this Colt Gunsight CCO.



http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={14F1FD52-A42A-42EB-8DA5-31E393F93261}&exp=f&moddt=39420.2613932755&ssdyn=1

So do the Gunsites have mim sears?

[pa_guns]

Hi

There are a lot of grades of NIM. You can (and do) make jet engines out of NIM. What ever Colt is using, their sears are good stuff.

With a trigger job, one issue is how long it lasts. Another issue is how good an edge you can put on the parts. Both are related to the composition of the metal used. You can (but most people don't) make a good alloy with NIM. You can (but some people don't) use a good alloy when you mill a part. The good alloys have expensive stuff in then and they are harder to machine.

Simply shopping NIM versus what ever is not a real good way to do it. The quality of what's in the parts is what counts. The person most likely to know what's good is the guy doing the work ....

Bob

[auto45]

I also asked him if I provided my own trigger what the cost would be and he got a bit indignant and asked me why i wanted to do this.

That's like bringing a steak to a restaurant and having them cook it for you. :D

You probably wouldn't save much money anyway. You pay "retail" from Brownells, for example, he pays less...and makes the difference. That's fair IMO.

If your trying to save money, don't blame you, I'd ask why your having the trigger work done? Getting rid of MIM, cleaner break, lighter or heavier , etc?

Meaning on the Kimber, I have yet to "feel" a bad trigger pull(for most shooting) and you probably don't need a new trigger anyway! Is it worn, unsafe, etc?

Colt can be a different story because of the series 80, plastic triggers, etc.

But, your right to ask these questions because, IMHO, your in the "middle" ground as to what to do. Because your paying someone $100 to work on MIM parts.

[deercop]

My new main carry gun that I am having worked on is this Colt Gunsight CCO.



http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={14F1FD52-A42A-42EB-8DA5-31E393F93261}&exp=f&moddt=39420.2613932755&ssdyn=1

So do the Gunsites have mim sears?


http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Gunsite.asp

FEATURES
Series 70 firing system
Smith & Alexander metal grip safety with palm swell
Serrated flat mainspring housing
Dehorned all around
Thin rosewood grips
Gold Cup serrations on front strap
Heinie front and Novak rear sights
Short aluminum trigger with 4 – 4½ lb pull
Wilson extended safety lock
$100 coupon towards training at Gunsite
Two 8-round Wilson magazines w/metal base plate
(only with O1070CGP and O1080CGP)
McCormick hammer and sear

[colubrid]

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Gunsite.asp

FEATURES
Series 70 firing system
Smith & Alexander metal grip safety with palm swell
Serrated flat mainspring housing
Dehorned all around
Thin rosewood grips
Gold Cup serrations on front strap
Heinie front and Novak rear sights
Short aluminum trigger with 4 – 4½ lb pull
Wilson extended safety lock
$100 coupon towards training at Gunsite
Two 8-round Wilson magazines w/metal base plate
(only with O1070CGP and O1080CGP)
McCormick hammer and sear


Oh wow the Gunsite has a McCormick hammer and sear. THAT IS GREAT! I am so glad you pointed that out. Now I don't have to buy a sear.

As far as how the trigger feels. Its the worst trigger I have ever felt on a 1911. It almost feels like glock trigger. Long pull, creep, you name it. It feels like a spring, mooshy looong triiger pull on a short trigger. However the reset is nice. I have been dry firing it a bit and it has not gotten any better (crisper0. But I am used to it from Colt guns now. Every gun that I have had from them has issues. I have lots of other 1911 that are not colt and have not had these issues with much less expensive 1911's. But this CCO is sweet in every other aspect and after doing a few changes it will be my main carry gun. I plan on adding a gold bead front site and having the slide to frame fit tightened up a bit . The Gold bead is just my preference but the slide to frame fit is very loose. I suspect that it will get looser if I shoot it a lot since the frame is alloy. I know that it will not effect accuracy but it just bothers me as I have never had such a loose fit, especially on a short barrel 1911.

[colubrid]

If your trying to save money, don't blame you, I'd ask why your having the trigger work done? Getting rid of MIM, cleaner break, lighter or heavier , etc?

Meaning on the Kimber, I have yet to "feel" a bad trigger pull(for most shooting) and you probably don't need a new trigger anyway! Is it worn, unsafe, etc?

The Kimber already has a match bushing he put on and I just want to have the trigger set at 3.5 because it is more of a target gun. But yes, the trigger on the Kimber is already pretty good. The two best triggers I have felt from an out of the box gun is a SA loaded and a Kimber anniversary issue series 1. The WWI repro I had was good after it was sent back to Colt for other issues. They sent me another gun and set the trigger. That trigger was great as well.

[NightVision]

Rule #1:
In the gun business, just like in any other consumer driven business it all boils down to the bottom line. Profit margins, sales volume, and competition in the market place. The cost of materials, machinery, tooling, QC, payroll for skilled personnel, executive salaries, marketing, ect-ect-ect. This is why molded and cast parts are cheaper to produce than machined parts.

Most consumers are price driven. They are limited to what they can afford. That is why they sell the lower quality guns and replacement parts in volume. Remember the assembly line process from school.

Now when you get into speciality parts and high end guns, the costs jump way up. You are going to pay top dollar for the best parts and skilled gunsmith to fit these parts. Time and Craftsmanship costs money. The technology is there to craft the most accurate and reliable gun in the world with space age alloys and coatings. Can you afford $25,000 or more for your gun. How many people out their can afford this bad boy and how many do you think will sell? Any questions? see rule #1.

[pa_guns]

Hi

We have an interesting situation here.

You have heard that NIM is bad and it's got to go. You have a "not NIM" sear that you can easily tell has issues. The decision is to keep the poor trigger parts because they are not NIM.

Essentially you are trusting a internet rumor more than your own senses ...

Bob

[deercop]

colubrid,

Did you buy the Gunsite CCO new or used? Is it possible someone messed with the trigger, trying to "improve" it? Or that there may be some foreign matter hampering it?

Anyway, if you feel the trigger is defective, I would send it back to Colt for warranty work. My Gunsite 5" came with a trigger that is better, IMO, than that on my Colt Special Combat Government Model.

[berkbw]

In general, the trigger has very little to do with a "trigger job". So why is he offering a freebee?

Prices for 'smithing vary a lot, and certainly by geography. $100 for a no-parts trigger job, dealing with an unseen trigger group is steep. Personally, if I were to send out for a t/j, I would select someone of known skill and repute. There are quite a few that fall into that catagory. Unless you are certain of your 'smiths abilities and history, understand that a malfunctioning trigger group can kill unknown recipients.

[Pay the freight and stuff and have someone like EGW, or any of the other "big" names, or the factory do it. You won't be sorry, except for a short loss of range time.

b-

[colubrid]

colubrid,

Did you buy the Gunsite CCO new or used? Is it possible someone messed with the trigger, trying to "improve" it? Or that there may be some foreign matter hampering it?

Anyway, if you feel the trigger is defective, I would send it back to Colt for warranty work. My Gunsite 5" came with a trigger that is better, IMO, than that on my Colt Special Combat Government Model.


Actually I did used the search function forthe Gunsite CCO and discovered almost everyone that posted pics of theirs mentioned the triggers are creepy and have trigger jobs done. So it is not just mine..