New Rem UMC Arsenal Rebuild Pic Post 1

[azreloader]

I am confused about the "X" series of Serial numbers. I have a new Remington UMC Arsenal Rebuild, but the frame has Serial number X15##. It has the "AA" arsenal stamp on it in front of the trigger guard.

One book I read said something about the "X" guns having been stolen and recovered, but I'm not sure I understood that correctly. Any help would be appreciated.

[pa_guns]

Hi

For what ever reason, serial numbers get "lost". In some cases the number is damaged. In others it may be removed. Sometimes an over aggressive polish job takes off lightly marked numbers.

The arsenals needed a way to re-number weapons in these cases. In order to keep the numbers separate from proper numbers, they used the "X" in front of them.

Bob

[Scott Gahimer]

Photos might help. While the arsenals did do some X prefix numbers, many more others have been faked in recent years.
If someone obliterated the serial number on a stolen or otherwise refinished pistol, then used a set of hand stamps with an X and some numbers, how would we determine the origin of the pistol's number?
There have also been many observed fake AA stamps in recent years.
That's what makes therse pistols a little risky to buy. The fakers have figured out they don't have to dispoose of a basket case anymore; they can just work it over and give it a story to make it rare in some cases.
Would like to see photos and perhaps get more info if necessary. Thanks.

[azreloader]

Thanks for the replys guys. I'll try to get some pics posted tomorrow.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Prices on any unusual / rare 1911 can be pretty crazy. Getting good pictures in advance is a *very* good idea. There are simply to many details to check out during a quick look over.

Some pistols got "improved" a long time ago. The current owner may be so far removed from the changes that he unaware that they took place.

Bob

[azreloader]

This actually looks like it may be an Arsenal replacement frame. Under strong magnification, there is no apparant sign of an old number being removed and replaced with the new one. None of the Rem UMC markings are present. The barrel is a like new looking HS marked barrel....and it came with the arsenal box.
I will be posting some pics shortly.

[pa_guns]

Hi

We are picture junkies here on the forum....

Bob

[azreloader]

I tried to include any markings I found while inspecting the gun, so let me know if I missed any that would help:
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/IMGP1126.JPG
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http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/IMGP1137.JPG
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/IMGP1139.JPG

[azreloader]

Continued from Pic Post 1
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[pa_guns]

Hi

I'm far from an expert on exactly which part came from where. From what I can see, you have a mix of WWI and WWII parts on the pistol. It's definitely been re-finished at least once.

My understanding is this. As the WWI pistols went through the arsenal process in the 1930's they were upgraded to the WWII configuration. That would have replaced the flat MSH and thumb safety. The Parkerize finish is not a WWI arsenal thing.

My *guess* is that the pistol was built up from gun show parts over the years and possibly then re-finished. Take that as you will, mostly I'm wrong .... :D :D :D

Bob

[Scott Gahimer]

I agree, it strikes me as a parts gun of recent manufacture. But...

There wasn't ever any requirement to "upgrade" M1911 pistols to M1911A1 parts when they went through rebuild. Parts that were satifsactory were re-used. Parts that weren't satisfactory were scrapped or reworked. Parts were parts; there wasn't any requirement to keep pistols' parts original.
Sometimes new parts were used, as necessary. Depending on when the rebuild was done would determine what new parts were available.
I've owned several rebuilds from the 1950s that were still all M1911, except for plastic grips and replacement barrels and mags.

[azreloader]

Regarding the "X" Serial numbers, the last page of Clawson's book lists known "X" Serial number ranges but does not go into any explanation of these or when/how/why they were used. This one seems to fall within the second group. Is there any reference material available that might cover them in more detail? Were they made as replacement parts, maybe?

[PDshooter]

Great pic, Nice! :)

[elijdub]

Very nice UMC AZ!!! I really like it! I can't wait to get my Clawson book (finally) tomorrow!

[Constantine-1911]

Nice man, I like the plain jane look of them without all the ''whistles and bells''.

[pa_guns]

Hi

It's a pretty low number in the X series. That of course assumes they started numbering at 1. If they started at 1,000 then it's a *very* low number.

Bob

[azreloader]

The anniston arsenal is still active. I am attempting to contact them to see if it had the "X" frame when they shipped it to the person who's address is on the box. A yes there would add to the possibility that it was changed at the Augusta Arsenal sometime after WW1

[Scott Gahimer]

I doubt you'll have any luck with Anniston Army Depot furnishing any information about the pistol. But...? Let us know how you come out.
After looking at your photos again, I noticed something...and I've changed my mind to think your pistol may in fact be a legitimate x-numbered rebuild from Augusta Arsenal.
A friend has owned one just a few numbers from yours for years and I think the appearance of the markings may be pretty much identical.
That pistol is pictured on p.420 of Clawson's first book. If you look closely, the X mark appears to be the exact same stamp. However, on the pistol in the book, it looks like the stamp was turned upside down when striking that mark. The short leg on the X is in opposite positions on the two pistols.
The position and style of the markings appears the same when compared to that pistol.
The AA should be stamped after finish. Additionally, many AA rebuilds I've owned had their grip screw bushings replaced and staked in place similar in appearance to the staking on original finish pistols. I think AA commonly replaced bushings during rebuild.
I think the number on the box has been added by someone after it left Anniston Army Depot. I've seen and owned several boxed rebuilds shipped from Anniston, but haven't seen one with the number written on the top of the box that way. Most have the serial number on the label. Part of your label appears to be gone. That might suggest something....either someone added the number to "replace" the one on the label, or...someone removed the part of the label which had a different number and then marked the number of the pistol on the box.
I wouldn't worry about the number on the box either way. The pistol is the important issue by comparison, and I think it might be okay.
There is always a change with an X-numbered piece, as I explained earlier, but yours looks like a promising example.
I wouldn't change a thing about it, and I'd preserve it rather than turn it into a shooter.

[Doran]

Interesting stamp on the MSH.

[Scott Gahimer]

Interesting stamp on the MSH.

Yes, it is. I forgot to mention that. The circled S mark is believed to be the mark of the R.F. Sedgley company in Phila. PA.
Sedgley is known to have done repair work for the U.S. Govt., and specifically for the U.S.M.C. depot there in Philadelphia.

However, on this pistol, we know it wasn't a U.S.M.C. pistol because it has an Augusta Arsenal marking and is parkerized. The Marines didn't send their pistols to Army arsenals for repair work or rebuild.
This raises another question...what is the origin of the marked msh?

I suppose there is a possibility the msh ended up being shipped to AA in a lot of parts from another location to be used for rebuilds.
I suppose there is a possibility the msh was put on after it left AA at Sedgley, but I think that is less likely.
And finally, there is the possibility the msh was installed by someone else in a subsequent rebuild since it left the military. That someone may have had a sign out front that read Bubba's Gun Works. :)

The msh appears, from the photo provided, to at least have similar finish and wear. But I can't tell for sure. A full examination of all the parts would be necessary to assess the pistol and make an informed decision about it's origin. That examination should include looking at finish and wear patterns of all corresponding parts.

Now if that msh were still blued and worn, and happened to be on a Colt with a serial number higher than 600xxx, then I'd say that Colt was most likely a U.S.M.C. pistol due to the fact many pistols in thast serial reange went to the Marine Corps, and Sedgley did do repair work for them.

Now and then, we see pistols with the Sedgley mark on different locations. I don't recall in the past seeing the mark on a msh, which doesn't necessarily mean anything because I don't see every gun and I sure don't remember everything I see.

Thanks for noting the marking on the msh, Doran. It is an interesting mark, especially on this pistol. It's something else that makes you think and look harder.

[azreloader]

Thanks, Scott, for your additional input. I will continue to make an attempt to trace back any of this gun's history, but I do not plan to ever shoot it or change it in any way. I like it just the way it is and the many possibilities of where a gun that is this old has or could have been, is part of the magic of collecting old military memorabilia, of any kind. You may never know for sure, but you can imagine.

I'll post any additional info I come up with.