An old veteran, an "old" new guy and some photographs of an early 1911

[harryvc]

Hello all, I joined the forums a couple of years ago, but immediately entered into a rather heated "discussion" with someone who seemed to know absolutely everything about everything and, rather than invite further abuse, I decided that I didn't truly wish to remain a part of any club that would have me as a member. I bowed out, although I have appreciated the birthday greetings.

I am returning, hoping that the meaning of discussion may have been reexamined and wanting to show off my newest. It's well-worn (from honest use no doubt) and it has acquired a couple of replacement parts, including a British proofed barrel, but it's a fine old early M1911, sent to the San Antonio Arsenal in 1912 and to who knows where from there. I've really been enjoying it and I hope you all will as well.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0472.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0490.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0487.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0486.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0483.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0479.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/IMG_0475.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff309/harryvc/proofs2.jpg

[pa_guns]

Hi

Welcome back !!!

Very cool, pistol. It looks like the real thing to me.

Bob

[harryvc]

Thank you sir.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I think I would pull the grips off of it and give it a good soak in oil. Every 50 years or so it does them some good. :D :D It will stabilize the finish and hopefully stop any rust dead in it's tracks.

I wonder how that pistol made it from Texas to England? That's not to mention back from England again ...

Bob

[f4t9r]

If only it could talk to tell the story

[harryvc]

Good advice and I shall do precisely that in the morning. Thanks again.

I was sort of hoping that it might have belonged to Frank Luke :D .

[pa_guns]

Hi

It never hurts to do some research. You could have the one in a hundred that can be traced. If so it's well worth knowing. The first step might be to ask the guy you got it from where he got it.

Bob

[harryvc]

It was the research potential that first attracted me to the pistol and I am going to take my time and pursue every avenue. I picked it up at auction, so the previous owner may be a bit difficult to track, but it is certainly worth a try.

[Doran]

Any other marks on the barrel besides the proof marks? Likely a replaced barrel or the frame and slide would also carry marks.

[harryvc]

Aside from the British proofs, there is an uppercase "W" with some obscured mark or letter beside it on the underside of the barrel, just before the link. All that remains of this latter mark is a straight line. There are no unusual markings on the slide or frame, so the barrel might have been replaced in 1912 or yesterday.

[Doran]

W indicates .455 calibre. The other letter likely a P.

[harryvc]

Thanks. For Webley? I first thought it might be the "W (broad arrow) D" marking, as seen on other British service arms. The line after the W is superscript, as the bit of shaft of the arrowhead would be.

[pa_guns]

Bob. What oil would you suggest?

Hi

It almost doesn't matter as long as it's not vegetable oil :D :D

Any lightweight modern lubricating oil should do just fine. They all have rust inhibitors in them, and they will all act as cleaning agents. You are not going to leave it on the pistol for a long time. It's a soak and clean it off process. What ever winds up in the oil is the stuff we want to get rid of.

That said, here's a couple of choices. Mobil 1 is a cheap auto lube. A single can will last you forever and ever. It's 3 pm on a Sunday - you can still get a can. Rem Oil, Hoppe's Oil, and Kroil all have a bit more of a gun orientation. Walmart brand 10 weight auto oil would be the lowest cost way to go.

Once you are done with the soak, it does matter what you coat the pistol with. Some oils hold up a lot better than others to long term storage. I'm far from the expert on what holds up best for five years in a safe.

Bob

[harryvc]

Thanks. Rem Oil is what I have and was planning on using. And I
thought some RIG for more long term, but Mobil One is certainly the most "cost effective" alternative.

Regards,
Jerry

[John Holbrook]

*******That barrel marked with a "W" in NOT 45 ACP.**********

The other mark is likely an "E" for ENGLISH..

It is a .455 Webley, so DO NOT shoot .45 ACP through it!!!!! It will fire .45 however it will not function correctly.

Actually, that is a rare barrel and valuable. Many folks need them to use in their 1911 .455 Colts!!! Most were replaced with .45 barrels.

.455 Colts have a "W" prefix serial number.. Such as, W123456... And they had a wider mag well.

Find a .45 barrel and sell the .455, and if it is in good shape, it is worth $300.00 or more!!!!

Also I noted that your Colt has an M1911A1 slide stop. It is a fine looking early Colt....

[John Holbrook]

Harry, I observed no English commercial proofs on your Colt! Just on the barrel, so the Colt probably DID NOT go to England, just the barrel, no doubt in a different pistola!!!!!! Heh, heh.....

Hope This Helps!!!!

[harryvc]

Don't worry, I would never shoot this with that .455 barrel.I started in this gun collecting business with 1872 Adams and the like, so I know the difference between .450 and .455, but have never known this about M1911s. Thank you.

There are no other English markings of any kind anywhere on the gun, so, as I said earlier, it might have acquired that barrel in 1912 or yesterday. It's odd, however, that it should have a rare barrel, because it also has a rare magazine, an American Pin Company. This may also have been a later addition, as was that slide stop. Thanks again, good help indeed.

[John Holbrook]

Harry, the American Pin Co. mags are fairly common. After WWI, the Govt. had hundred of thousands of unused spare mags. I think the War Dept. thought that the war would last a lot longer and ordered way to many spares! They were still using these mags during WW II. American Pin was bought by one of the other makers, I don't remember which one, prior to WW II.

In 1919, all parts finished or not that had not been used were shipped to Springfield Armory. For many years complete pistols were assembled from those parts. Some say that ANY 1911 with a serial number above 600000 was not assembled by Colt but were done by SA. Those high number pistols were used by the Marines during the "Banana Wars" in Central America and Haiti... Colt has no shipping records above SN 600000..

Many Colt 1911s that had been originally made in .455 had their barrels switched to .45 ACP when they were imported into the U.S. I have observed many of these guns. The .455 mags were also wider that the .45, and will not fit in a .45 frame. Of course, the .45 mags will go into a .455 frame, however they are loose and flop around.

[Scott Gahimer]

[QUOTE=Colt has no shipping records above SN 600000..[/QUOTE]

It's my understanding there are some shipping records past 600,000...they just don't have shipping records on all the pistols past 600,000. See the shipping records listed in the back of Clawson's first book.

At that time, pistols were not being shipped in numerical order due to WWI and the expedited production process. This accounts for many pistols with serial numbers over 600,000 being shipped with pistols having numbers lower than 600,000.

The only way to know for sure on a specific pistol over 600,000 is to order a factory letter.

[John Holbrook]

Thanks Scott, I should know by now never to use "never" or "always" when referring to Colt.

Like the Lord, they work in mysterious ways!!!!! :o

If I remember, Meadows book lists lots of 600000 series pistolas the went to the USMC. :confused:

[Scott Gahimer]

If I remember, Meadows book lists lots of 600000 series pistolas the went to the USMC. :confused:

John: You are correct about some pistols with serial numbers higher than 600,000 being listed in Meadows' book as USMC pistols, but I don't think that has anything directly to do with the Colt shipping records that may exist for those pistols.
I believe all the listings in the back of Meadows' book are excerpts from the SRS database dealing with the M1911 pistols. That info, as you know, is taken primarily from records found in the National Archives and usually does not refer to original shipping documents...but rather military unit records which have been recovered.
However, with those pistols above 600,000 having USMC documentation in the National Archives, it does tell us where at least some of those pistols possibly ended up...or at least where they were on that day reflected in the records.
If I had a pistol in that range I was wondering about, and it didn't get a direct hit through SRS, I'd likely opt for the chance at a factory letter. Might get info...but might not too. It's worth the gamble IMO.

[Auto Mag]

I just read the post about soaking a 1911 in an oil bath. Can you tell me what is involved in this process. I realize removing the grips would be the first move but is the pistol broken down or left together and soaked in the oil. How long would the soaking last and is it completely immersed in the oil? Sorry for all the questions but I do not want to do something wrong.

[pa_guns]

I just read the post about soaking a 1911 in an oil bath. ....

Hi

Definitely remove the grips and don't get them anywhere near the oil. :D :D The same may be true of painted on sight dots.

There may be finishes that you should be careful of. Blueing, Parkerize, Nickel / Chrome plate, and stainless steel are not a problem in oil. Russian black varnish, and boot polish do not hold up well in an oil soak.

I detail strip the pistol and soak each part. You don't want the parts knocking up against each other. Scratches are a bad thing :D Little screw top glass jars seem to be ideal for the task. I fish them out of the recycling bin and wash the pickle juice out of them ....

Oil is pretty benign stuff. You can soak metal in it for a long time. I don't think there is much benefit past the first 48 hours. You are not going to damage steel by soaking it for a week or longer.

Once you get it out of the oil, you should not need to do a lot of scrubbing. The idea is to avoid heavy action that might damage the finish. The inside of the barrel probably will need some attention with patches.

After everything it clean, get *all* of the oil off of the parts. That includes areas like the bushings on the frame. What ever is in the cleaning oil should not be left on the pistol.

Final step is to go back and properly lubricate the pistol and coat it with a fresh coat of what every you use to protect things.

Bob

[Auto Mag]

Bob, thank you very much for your reply!!!! :) :)

This is the 1911 that I want to give the oil bath. :)

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/AutoMag180/DSC02434.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/AutoMag180/DSC02433.jpg

[pa_guns]

Hi

Nice pistol !!!!

Looks like a gentle soak wouldn't hurt it.

Bob

[harryvc]

*******That barrel marked with a "W" in NOT 45 ACP.**********

The other mark is likely an "E" for ENGLISH..

It is a .455 Webley, so DO NOT shoot .45 ACP through it!!!!! It will fire .45 however it will not function correctly.

Actually, that is a rare barrel and valuable. Many folks need them to use in their 1911 .455 Colts!!! Most were replaced with .45 barrels.

.455 Colts have a "W" prefix serial number.. Such as, W123456... And they had a wider mag well.

Find a .45 barrel and sell the .455, and if it is in good shape, it is worth $300.00 or more!!!!

Also I noted that your Colt has an M1911A1 slide stop. It is a fine looking early Colt....
I will gladly trade, "even up" to anyone who has a half way decent and honest WWI .45 barrel.

[harryvc]

Thanks for all of the information and advice. My main interest is in a pre-WWI M1911, so I'll offer this barrel up on GunBroker.com and hope that I may one day find the appropriate .45 barrel. Again, thanks.

[harryvc]

Oh yes, thanks again. I replaced that slide stop with one of appropriate vintage.