Help With ID - Noob - Flog Away!

[1719]

So I've tried reading the stickies, but I'm still a little lost. :confused: This is an inherited piece that I'm not sure the true "lore" behind, although what you all tell me could prove the lore to be false, or tend to validate its history.

As well, I'm a little "light" on actual knowledge - so anything is appreciated as to whether or not it has been modified or otherwise altered from original.

The gun does say "United States Property" and the Serial is low enough to be in the range (In the images I've blocked out the final 3 #'s, but there are only 3 blocked out), but I'm finding somewhat contradictory info at places like wikipedia, so I figured I would come to where the experts roam...

The best info I could find was this:

7) Colt: S/N 108,601 to 290,000 = Feb. 8, 1915 to May, 1918
(S/N 109,501 to 110,000 Navy Model, S/N 223,953 to 223,991 Navy Model,
S/N 232,001 to 233,600 Navy Model)
(S/N 151,187 to 151,986 U.S.M.C. Model, S/N 185,801 to 186,201 U.S.M.C. Model,
S/N 209,587 to 210,386 U.S.M.C. Model, S/N 215,387 to 217,386 U.S.M.C. Model)"

But this one is a 143XXX number, which isn't listed, so am I missing something?

Photos (I am not a photographer, but I did my best. If there is another angle/shot that is needed to let me know something, just tell me!):

http://www.nerdit.net/colt1.JPG
http://www.nerdit.net/colt2.JPG
http://www.nerdit.net/colt3.JPG
http://www.nerdit.net/colt4.JPG
http://www.nerdit.net/colt5.JPG

And the final question, of course, is would I be destroying the value and appearance by actually taking it to my range? :dead_hors

Thank you in advance for any info and or recommendations! :D

[1719]

From here: http://www.m1911.org/serno_mi.htm

1917 COLT 137401
COLT USMC 151187

Would mean that this one falls between those two numbers, and would be from 1917? Again, thanks for any help/direction!

[Hawkmoon]

Based on the photos, there's a lot of light pitting and (hopefully) fairly superficial deterioration of the original finish, so it's unlikely that putting a few rounds through it could hurt the finish. But with the older pistols there is always the chance that a slide might crack, in which event it's not good for anything except a paperweight.

Personally, I would not shoot it if it were mine. If you must shoot it to see if it works, run one or two magazines through it and then set it aside as the heirloom it is. If you test fire it, I would put in a fresh recoil spring and a shock buffer for the range session, then reinstall the original recoil spring to maintain authenticity.

[pa_guns]

Hi

My understanding of the list is that your pistol is from 1917.

I'm not sure if it's just the camera or something else. Is the thumb safety a different blue than the rest of the pistol? It looks like the right part for the era, so the color may not be an issue.

I am very much in the minority on WWI Colts. 99 out of 100 people here will tell you not to shoot a legitimate WWI pistol. I disagree more on a philosophical rather than practical basis. The pistols were made to be shot. Assuming it's checked over, and sound internally it should function fine. A sound pistol should not be damaged by a short trip to the range.

The other side of that argument is that a WWI pistol in it's original issued configuration and finish is a *rare* item. Any damage to them is going to drop their value. Since there are few of them, we loose history when we damage one.

If we're talking about routine range use, no I would not shoot a "real" WWI. That's simply asking to much.

Bob

[1719]

Thanks for the advice - my wife has also convinced me that doing anything other than saving it for our kids being pld/mature enough to appreciate its historical/family value would be a waste. This does mean I'm going to have to buy one of the replicas to enjoy the action vicariously, but so be it! Another question then for anyone else still reading - what would be the closest replica I could order from my FFL?
Thanks again for the post, and any others ;)

[Rakkasan187a]

Totally an amateur opinion, I own a WW One (1918 mfg.) Colt M-1911, a SA A-1, and a new WW One Colt WW One M-1911 commemorative, which I've shot extensively already..about 500 rounds. The new Colt is just plain SWEET and very accurate...a little bit pricey but in my humble opinion, worth it. Now that you've got the bug..lol.
Happy and safe shooting.
Rakkasan 187

[1719]

Heck - I might as well tack-on to my previous questions here since you all have been kind enough to reply before!
I've looked at the thumb safety and it looks like it could be a little bit different, but it could also be a difference in exposure? Family lore has this gun being taken by an uncle and his brother's son (My grandfather) into two wars (WWI & WWII), but the family snob (Who didn't get the gun, obviously...) was quite vocal that this couldn't have been a WWI gun, and I kind of accepted this as fact. I don't know either way, but was interested to find out what I could so here I am ;) Assuming that this does pass muster, what steps should I take to keep it in as good as condition as possible? The discoloration is superficial, there is no "pitting" that I can feel with my fingernail, and everything dry-fires well and has two magazines that (again, per lore) are original as well. It has been stored in a leather/sheepskin "wallet" - is that the industry standard?
Thanks again, all! :)

[pa_guns]

Hi

What you have is indeed a WWI version of the 1911. There are several differences on the WWII version. Weather it is 100% correct or not, I can't tell.

The closest thing from you local dealer would be a Colt WWI repo pistol:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n68/pa_guns/ww1_2.jpg

(Note the way the thumb safety looks darker ....) :D :D

comes in a box like this:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n68/pa_guns/ww1_2_inside.jpg

Costs between $900 and $1000 depending on how nice your dealer is.

Bob

[1719]

Thanks Bob!
Just for clarification, is this the same thing?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=85645573
or
http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1911WWI.asp
I'll buy from my dealer, but just to give him a link I wanted to make sure I was on target ;)
If the replica is $900 - $1000 I'd really hate to think how much damage I could have done by wearing this one out! Saved by the board!

[pa_guns]

Thanks Bob!
Just for clarification, is this the same thing?


Hi

Yes, that's the same thing. I *think* you can find one delivered for less money than the auction you found. Around here you see the pistols in stores for $1000 and at shows for $900. That's less tax, but otherwise out the door. Buying one you can hold in your hand is definitely worth something.

If your WWI has family ties to it, that's what counts. It counts more to you than to anybody else. That value will only go up as the years go by.

Bob

[1719]

If your WWI has family ties to it, that's what counts. It counts more to you than to anybody else. That value will only go up as the years go by.

Bob

Indeed! Thanks for the lead on the replica - I'll stop by and see what he can do for me in the $900 range. Many thanks, again, and I imagine I'll be around more in the coming weeks as I get up to speed some more :D

Also, does anyone recommend this service?
http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/historical.asp
Or is it so generic so as to be non-useful when it comes to identification/history? Interested if it would talk about who the gun was originally issued to, etc.

[pa_guns]

Also, does anyone recommend this service?
http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/historical.asp
Or is it so generic so as to be non-useful when it comes to identification/history? Interested if it would talk about who the gun was originally issued to, etc.

Hi

It's a very cool thing to do. The only question is weather it's worth the money.

They might be able to trace your pistol down to the facility that they shipped it to. From there you possibly could track it through other records (like the National Archives).

Bob

[Scott Gahimer]

From what I can see in the photos, the pistol appears to be original finish and correct.
The roughness in the surface shown in the photos does appear to be light pitting from poor storage.
I'm curious about the barrel markings on the pistol. Do you see markings on the top of the chamber through the ejection port? If not, you'll have to disassemble the pistol and look on the back of the hood extension and the back of the lugs under the chamber.
I've got an original pistol about 3000 numbers later with a barrel in it that is original, but unique to that serial range. I'm curious if your barrel has the same markings. A pistol in the 135xxx rnage has the same barrel as my pistol.
I'd clean the pistol, lube it and store it properly to preserve it. Don't use anything abrasive on the surface; only a CLP. If you need help or recommendations, just ask.
BTW, your pistol is an early 1917 shipped in Mar. or Apr. and could very well have seen service in WWI. With the full serial number, I can tell you exactly when and where it was shipped. With the full serial number, I can also tell you if it has shown up on known records within the last couple years in the National Archives.

[1719]

Markings through the ejection port are a vertical "P" and an "H" - I have PM'd you the full serial number - thanks for the offer on that front! If you were looking for other markings, I'll try to do what you described, although it read like Greek to me at the moment :confused:
As far ar "cleaning and storing properly", I must admit my current method has always been to store guns in the boxes they came with, and then put them in the storage unit (Homeowners insurance limits, etc.) or "in service" at home - any specifics you could point me to in order to get it ready for storage, and/or a better storage method, (call me Ross Perot, but) I'm all ears!

From what I can see in the photos, the pistol appears to be original finish and correct.
The roughness in the surface shown in the photos does appear to be light pitting from poor storage.
I'm curious about the barrel markings on the pistol. Do you see markings on the top of the chamber through the ejection port? If not, you'll have to disassemble the pistol and look on the back of the hood extension and the back of the lugs under the chamber.
I've got an original pistol about 3000 numbers later with a barrel in it that is original, but unique to that serial range. I'm curious if your barrel has the same markings. A pistol in the 135xxx rnage has the same barrel as my pistol.
I'd clean the pistol, lube it and store it properly to preserve it. Don't use anything abrasive on the surface; only a CLP. If you need help or recommendations, just ask.
BTW, your pistol is an early 1917 shipped in Mar. or Apr. and could very well have seen service in WWI. With the full serial number, I can tell you exactly when and where it was shipped. With the full serial number, I can also tell you if it has shown up on known records within the last couple years in the National Archives.

[Scott Gahimer]

Your pistol was one of 1000 shipped Apr. 18, 1917 to Rock Island Arsenal. It is not listed in the SRS database I have which is a couple years old. There is the slightest chance it may appear in the future in records that may be discovered and documented at the National Archives...but that's a stretch. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Regarding cleaning and storage: I use nothing but Clenzoil to clean, lube and preserve the finish on my collectibles. I'd suggest getting some vpi paper after that and storing the pistol in a storage box from www.protecta-gun.com (size LA) in a climate-controlled safe storage area.
I initially mis-read your serial number as 141xxx. My pistol I referred to is a 144xxx range pistol...not far from yours. I don't see a lot of original pistols in the 140000-160000 serial range. Thanks for posting yours.

[1719]

Yup, a "high" 143XXX, not far from you at all :)
Thanks for the info regarding the shipment to Rock Island (I have a 1903 Springfield from there also... never knew the two were related in any way!).
I don't know if you work for any of those companies, but I'm off to buy clenzoil and a box from protecta as I type - they should pay you ;)
For clenzoil I found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CLENZOIL-Gun-Oil-Finest-Lubrication-Protection_W0QQitemZ220014061164QQihZ012QQcategoryZ22700QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Is that a fair price or should I go to my dealer and hope he has the stuff?

[DGW]

Hmmm, I think I'm going to see if they have any of that Clenzoil up here in Canada too and order some of those boxes. I've been meaning to order them. I've been keeping mine wrapped in fleece lined opened ziplock bags. Thanks Scott!

[Scott Gahimer]

For clenzoil I found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CLENZOIL-Gun-Oil-Finest-Lubrication-Protection_W0QQitemZ220014061164QQihZ012QQcategoryZ22700QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Is that a fair price or should I go to my dealer and hope he has the stuff?


Clenzoil has their own website, too. You should be able to easily find it with a google search. Anything below retail is a deal. Regardless of any price difference, I think it's the best product out there.
I'd suggest checking with your local dealer or at a gun show. It's the shipping costs that get you buying online. A dealer usually pays no shipping if ordering enough quantity at one time.
I think the retail for 8 oz. is $13.95 now. I'd try to buy it for that or less. But I wouldn't chisel on somebody on such an inexpensive purchase. Nobody's getting rich selling a bottle of oil. If you can't buy face to face, you may have to go online to get it.
I was a Clenzoil dealer for years...but proably am not anymore. ;) The company sold recently, and I see they don't have me listed anymore in their dealer search. That may be because I haven't re-ordered anything from the new owners since they took over.
BTW, the best way to buy is by the gallon. But you'll never use a gallon in 4 lifetimes with 25 guns. A lot of guys, gun dealers included, buy gallons and split it up with their friends and customers. It's considerably cheaoer that way. Just do the math.
Also, Clenzoil is great for far more than guns... quality tools, etc.
Good luck.

[1719]

Got the clenzoil - very impressed! Stripped the gun and cleaned it up - better photos (Read how to do that also ;) ) to follow, but a lot of the "blemish" factor cleared up, and it looks much "crisper" for lack of a better adjective.
Thanks again, all!

[pa_guns]

Hi

A blued finish on a pistol is a form of iron oxide. Rust is also iron oxide. A good oil contains rust inhibitors. Keeping the blue from converting to rust is a good idea .... :D

Bob