Help with a Franken-gun

[russian]

Was in the shop today and saw a parked Colt 1911A1 with a commercial slide on it. the serial looked like it had been not nicely obliterated and re-stamped with a United States Property and new serial.

The frame is stamped with a P and GHD, VP on one side of the trigger guard and a 23 on the other.

The barrel is marked 45 Auto 7791193 and is parked, the gun also comes with a blued barrel P stamped and a G in front of the link pin.

The slide, looks like a commercial slide, no 'US Army' on it, just the long Colt patent rollmarking on the one side and colt automatic stamp on the other.

Was 'told' it was a commercial pressed into military service, hence the badly removed and restamped serial. Can anyone confirm this? And if so, what kind of value is it? Serial 86577X

Thanks

[gottripletsNC]

Sounds like a mixmaster that someone just doesn't know the whole deal about it.

[Joni Lynn]

Sounds like something I'd avoid.

[stuart gildersleeve]

there were if i recall correctly in early 1943 Colt commercial/Military 1911A1's were the Commercial S.N.'s on the frmes were peened off and restamped with the Gov't S.N.'s nd markings, these pistols also retained their commercial slides. you may have come across one of these pistols.

[Scott Gahimer]

Was in the shop today and saw a parked Colt 1911A1 with a commercial slide on it. the serial looked like it had been not nicely obliterated and re-stamped with a United States Property and new serial.

The frame is stamped with a P and GHD, VP on one side of the trigger guard and a 23 on the other.

The barrel is marked 45 Auto 7791193 and is parked, the gun also comes with a blued barrel P stamped and a G in front of the link pin.

The slide, looks like a commercial slide, no 'US Army' on it, just the long Colt patent rollmarking on the one side and colt automatic stamp on the other.

Was 'told' it was a commercial pressed into military service, hence the badly removed and restamped serial. Can anyone confirm this? And if so, what kind of value is it? Serial 86577X

Thanks

The pistol sounds like it's in it's original configuration. The slide should be P proofed on top and be numbered to match the frame's number. The P and G marked barrel may be the original barrel to the gun.
If you're not interested in it, please contact me offline. I'd like to check it out. You can e-mail me or PM me through the site.
Value would depend on originality and condition. Both are required for the pistol to have value as a collectible.
Thanks,
Scott

[russian]

It is P proofed on top of the slide, but I didn't check under the firing pin stop plate to see if the frame num matches.

Like with any 1911, I have to get pictures and post them.

[gottripletsNC]

The pistol sounds like it's in it's original configuration. The slide should be P proofed on top and be numbered to match the frame's number. The P and G marked barrel may be the original barrel to the gun.
If you're not interested in it, please contact me offline. I'd like to check it out. You can e-mail me or PM me through the site.
Value would depend on originality and condition. Both are required for the pistol to have value as a collectible.
Thanks,
Scott


Well I stand corrected, but I've been wrong MANY times before, Scott is the one to listen to on these.

[russian]

Well I stand corrected, but I've been wrong MANY times before, Scott is the one to listen to on these.

Well I consider myself a basic apprentice in the ways of the 1911. My first thought when I saw it was a mix/mis-match of stuff that wasn't too well done. Like with anything like this though, there are so many little niches and special pieces out there that the research has to be done. If I hadn't been quick about things and been lucky enough to find some reference on the net, it would have remained just a mis-matched piece.

Thanks guys for your info, especially Scott. *bow, bow*

[Scott Gahimer]

Well, did you pick it up yet? If so, I'd love to see some photos. Yes, they are a neat variation. It took several months for all the commercial guns and loose parts to be transferred from civilian sales to government sales. There are several sub-variations of guns within the serial ranges from mid-1942 to early 1943. I've got 9 or 10 of the re-numbered guns like you described, and several others with commercial marked parts...including one 872xxx gun with a Swartz-cut receiver and another 930xxx with a commercial-marked and transferred slide. S-marked frames and commercial barrels and magazines are the most-common transferred parts seen in the guns that weren't far enough along in production to require re-numbering. They're all neat to me. Hope you got a good one. I look forward to seeing it.

[russian]

Haven't picked it up yet i'm afraid, I have a waiting period before I can take a gun home after I have paid the money. :sd:

I do however plan on going in to take some pics this week to tide you guys (and myself) over. Till then its going to be like Christmas eve thinking about getting that new present.

[Scott Gahimer]

I think we who are law abiding citizens and responsible gun owners all dislike it when we have to pay the price with our liberties because of the goofballs out there and the crimes they commit with guns. It is sad.

I look forward to seeing your photos.

[russian]

Thanks Scott. Speaking of info, though, can you fill me in as to what the 'Schwartz Safety' system is?

[rondawg]

Sorry, I can't resist!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/smilies/spaceballs.gif

[russian]

If that's all it is rondawg, then we just call that 'muzzle control'

[Scott Gahimer]

The Swartz (note the spelling) safety was a system designed by William Swartz in 1937. Charles Clawson states in his book in the section on the C/M pistols the safety "locked the firing pin against movement except when the pistol was properly gripped. The associated parts consisted of a firing pin lock and spring, and a firing pin safety actuator, which were removed when the pistols were refurbished. The commercial hammer and its mated sear, Swartz-modified firing pin, extractor and stocks were replaced with military-style parts."
More info on the Swartz safety is in his book on the commercial Government Model pistols.

[russian]

Ok, I finally have the pics:

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM0.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM1.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM2.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM3.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM4.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM5.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM6.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM8.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM10.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CM11.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CMtop.jpg

[Scott Gahimer]

Did the store represent it as original finish? It appears as though it's been re-done to me. Normally the hardened front ends aren't nearly that dark until they've been refinished. Mag release button appears to not be original to the pistol, due to the color of it. Some of the corners appear to be a little rounded. Grips have been changed, too, besides the barrel. What did the Colt barrel look like that came with the pistol? How about the marking on the base of the magazine?
Here is an 865xxx C/M that I know is original finish for comparison. The color seems to be a little different.
http://i8.tinypic.com/6tp2e81.jpg
http://i8.tinypic.com/6xhqkyg.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/6xtrv5z.jpg

[russian]

No the store didn't represent it either way. To be honest with you, I think its the camera, the flash was really bringing that colour difference out, it doesn't look like that to the eye or in 'normal light'. I was suprised how dark it showed up on the pics. I have to get a new camera. :( It makes all my stuff look like Claudia Schiffer with acne.

I have the original barrel, will take a pic for you, its blued not parked. The grips look like Keyes grips, I didn't take them off yet to confirm however.

The mag button definitely is a blue, same as slide release and safety. In regards to the rounded corners, which corners are you referring to? Keep in mind I took the pics at angles, not straight on to try and minimize the flash and get some focus.

I'll be picking it up early next week so will be able to take some new pics for you to mull over, and we can see if its really the flash or it is really different.

And the mag is not correct, no markings on the base.

[Scott Gahimer]

The mag button definitely is a blue, same as slide release and safety. In regards to the rounded corners, which corners are you referring to?

I'll be picking it up early next week so will be able to take some new pics for you to mull over, and we can see if its really the flash or it is really different.

And the mag is not correct, no markings on the base.

The small parts should be parked, not blued. The lines in the finger cutouts and along the recoil spring housing near the front look a little soft to me, as does the back end of the slide from the top...but that may just be the camera wobbling.

Not all of the magazines Colt's transferred over to the military had markings on the bases. How about some photos of the mag which show the sides of the tube down near the base, and also the bottom of the base?

[russian]

The small parts should be parked, not blued. The lines in the finger cutouts and along the recoil spring housing near the front look a little soft to me, as does the back end of the slide from the top...but that may just be the camera wobbling.

Not all of the magazines Colt's transferred over to the military had markings on the bases. How about some photos of the mag which show the sides of the tube down near the base, and also the bottom of the base?

Yea, its too bad about the small parts.

As far as the front of the slide, its the angle of the picture along with some finish wear in the area that softened up the pics.

here is another pic I took with no flash. Unfortunately I had the slide held open at the time so it wont show the front area of the recoil housing and its a little blurry, but it will show the 'human eye' view of the finish a little better.

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911%20CMnoflash.jpg

I will get those mag pics for you in the next couple days.

[russian]

Brought the baby home from the shop today. Quite exciting!

Anyhow, doing a less rushed survey of things, the slide stop and safety aren't blued, they are parked, just shaded differently The mag button and its other side is blued as noted.

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/Colt1911CM%20018.jpg

There's a side again Scott, should show the lines a little better:

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/Colt1911CM%20left.jpg

Grips are the Keyes ones with the star on the inside.

The mags have no markings, either on the buttom or on top of the little plate in front of the rounded part. They are nondescript.

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/Colt1911CM%20mags.jpg

Here is the original barrel

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/Colt1911CM%20barrel.jpg

The only problem I found is when I took off the right grip, the bushing came out with the screw still firmly in it. Threading looks ok on the inside, but the bushing is shot. :butthead:

So between the grips and bushing, I am happy with everything else.

[Scott Gahimer]

The pistol's color looks better in these latest photos.
Can you show us some good close-up photos of the grip screw bushings without the grips on the pistol? Are they blued or Parkerized? Do you see bare metal where they were staked into place on the frame? You have to look inside the mag well to see the staking.
Do you see bare metal where the plunger tube was riveted to the frame, looking inside the mag well on the back side of the two rivets? Is the bullet feed ramp bare metal or finished?
How about the G.H.D., VP and inspector and assembler marks? Stamped after or before finish? How about the crossed cannons? Before or after finish?
Your photos of the mags don;t tell me anything. I need to see each side of the mag down where it attaches to the base to know if it's pinned base or welded base. I also need to see the bottom of the base plate. Pinned base is good, welded base and unmarked means post-war aftermarket.
I'd also inspect the wear patterns on the G barrel and compare them to the frame and slide's mating surfaces to look for a matching wear pattern.
However, if the pistol has been shot with the Parked post-war barrel, chances are good the wear patterns will be conflicting.
Look on the back side of the barrel and the back side of the barrel lugs. Then look closely at the mating surfaces of the slide and frame. Everywhere there's wear on the one side, there should be wear on the other side.
Either way, I'd put the Colt G barrel back in it. At least that is a barrel that may have come in the pistol.

[russian]

Can you show us some good close-up photos of the grip screw bushings without the grips on the pistol? Are they blued or Parkerized? Do you see bare metal where they were staked into place on the frame? You have to look inside the mag well to see the staking.

They are darker than the rest of the grip, but still look same matte shade as the slide stop and safety. The screw bushings look threaded in, not staked.

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20003.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20005.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20007.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20015.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20018.jpg

Do you see bare metal where the plunger tube was riveted to the frame, looking inside the mag well on the back side of the two rivets?

No bare metal on the holes on the inside
http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20026.jpg

Is the bullet feed ramp bare metal or finished?

bare metal, but on the G barrel it looks like there is some blueing left on the one side.
http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20011.jpg

How about the G.H.D., VP and inspector and assembler marks? Stamped after or before finish? How about the crossed cannons? Before or after finish?

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20027.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20029.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20030.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20032.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20034.jpg

Your photos of the mags don;t tell me anything. I need to see each side of the mag down where it attaches to the base to know if it's pinned base or welded base. I also need to see the bottom of the base plate. Pinned base is good, welded base and unmarked means post-war aftermarket.

Sorry :( I'm trying. They look welded and unmarked anywhere
http://members.shaw.ca/sestroretsk/1911/1911CM/Colt1911CM2%20001.jpg

I'd also inspect the wear patterns on the G barrel and compare them to the frame and slide's mating surfaces to look for a matching wear pattern.
However, if the pistol has been shot with the Parked post-war barrel, chances are good the wear patterns will be conflicting.
Look on the back side of the barrel and the back side of the barrel lugs. Then look closely at the mating surfaces of the slide and frame. Everywhere there's wear on the one side, there should be wear on the other side.
Either way, I'd put the Colt G barrel back in it. At least that is a barrel that may have come in the pistol.

I agree, the G barrel is nicer, but its pitted to the point its depressing. The post war barrel is suprisingly in good condition with little to no wear. What llittle wear there is on it, matches the more extensive wear on the G barrel. The G barrels wear matches the slide, specifically along the left side where the lug meets the barrel.

[Scott Gahimer]

I agree; I think the mags are post-war aftermarket.
The grip screw bushings look original. They are screwed into the frame, then they were staked with a staking tool to hold them in place. The staking didn't hold on the one bushing that came out.
I'd soak it good with Kroil, let it sit a day or two; then carefully try to get the screw out of it. Or, take it to a good gunsmith and tell him you want to save the screw and bushing, if possible. If he says he can't...then it's time to find another gunsmith or just put the bushing back in.
If you put the bushing back in, use Loctite and let it cure. Then, after it cures, try a little penetrant and attempt to remove the screw again...but don't mess up the screw.
I can't tell anything too much about your markings regarding being before or after finish. The lighting or angle isn't right in the photos for me to see. You'll have to look and report. The bare metal will be on the side walls of the stamp, where the die cut through the finish and displaced the metal to make an impression.
In your earlier photos, I thought I could see some bare metal. You'll have to roll the gun around in your hands and look closely in good lighting. But...too intense a light will wash out what you're seeing and make it more difficult to see.
I wouldn't worry about the pitting in the G barrel. I'd put it back in the pistol and preserve the pistol. If you were looking for a shooter, I'd suggest you keep looking.
If you need help looking at the pistol, I'd be glad to do it if you ever attend a gun show I'm at. If interested, just contact me by e-mail or PM to set it up. I hit several shows a year in various locations...but mostly in the midwest; but nothing further west than Tulsa.

[russian]

If you need help looking at the pistol, I'd be glad to do it if you ever attend a gun show I'm at. If interested, just contact me by e-mail or PM to set it up. I hit several shows a year in various locations...but mostly in the midwest; but nothing further west than Tulsa.

Thanks Scott, I appreciate all the help. I took so many pics last night and stared at the thing so long I ended up dreaming about looking at it all night long. :D

As for the marks, the only stamps that look crinkled at the edges are the GHD (mostly in the H) and the P, although they have what looks to be years of that rusty grime in them. The VP, R and 23 don't have any bare metal showing. Were these pistols not refinished when brought over from commercial to the military? Blue to park? I would have thought they would have already had the VP, R and 23?

That has been the problem with my pics is too much lighting in some cases, I know it must be hard for you to look at them when they aren't 'spec'.

Another observation I made is that the finish and area under the grip on the right side is much more inconsistent with the rest of the finish, like water or gunk got trapped under the grip and affected the finish. The other side is fine however. Something to do with the holster?

I appreciate the invite to show you the gun, but being in Canada, I couldn't get the thing over to you to see even if I wanted to. If you however come up here for a vacation or some such, let me know, I would be happy to have your expertise.

It really bugs me about that one screw bushing, but the silver lining is that it still screws in and holds the grips, so I will follow you advise to get the screw out of the bushing.

I realized last night by the way that the grips are mismatched. One is a Keyes with a star and an 11, the other a Keyes with a 12. The one has the ring around the screw hole, the other doesn't. Which grips are correct for this pistol?

[Scott Gahimer]

You should be able to use Kroil, Clenzoil or another similar product with a toothbrush and remove some of the rust from those markings. It's not uncommon to have rust in markings where the finish has been broken and bare metal is exposed.
The vast majority of C/M pistols I've seen appear to have had the VP and inspector/assembler marks re-applied after finish, which was not a big chore. Let's face it, they took the time and effort necessary to remove the Government Model marking and commercial serial number and re-apply the military markings. It would have been much easier to remove the other markings.
Colt's quality control and inspection processes were top notch in the day these pistols were produced. The VP, inspector and assembler marks were important in determining when a pistol was ready for Ordnance inspection and acceptance.
Hard to say about the finish under the right grip. Yes, it may have drawn moisture due to poor storage which caused the screw to sieze and over ride the staking when attempting to remove the grip.
Both of your grips are incorrect. Colt's made their own grips. The grips that would have been on your pistol when it left Colt's are the latest style of Coltwood grip. It has wide rings around the screw holes and the reinforcing ribs on the inside of the grips. They'll also have a mold number stamped inside them.
The mold numbers have nothing to do with whether the grips are matching or not. The number is simply to identify the mold used to make that specific grip. All the molds had different numbers. Should there be a problem with a grip (a flaw), the factory immediately knew which mold had the problem. Rarely, if ever, would you have a matching set of grips with the same mold number on each grip. The factory would not have had two molds with the same number in service at the same time. Your grips are mis-matched, but only because they are two different style grips...one with the ring, the other without.
BTW, to be clear, I would recommend using the same bushing and screw if at all possible. I'd use Loctite to hold the bushing in place. I'd not attempt to re-stake the bushing.
If you can't separate the screw from the bushing without damaging them, and your screw isn't messed up now...I'd send the grip with the bushing and screw to someone who can do the work. I understand being in Canada you can't ship the gun, but you could send the grip. If you decide you need help with it, let me know. I may be able to recommend someone.
Most people wait until they've messed something up to ask for help. I'd suggest not getting yourself into that position. Once it's messed up, there's no going back.
Have been to Canada several times over the years. No plans to go back at this time, but I'll let you know if plans change. Thanks.
Good luck.

[russian]

Well thank you Scott for all your help, information and expertise. All things considered, its a neat piece.

Just for my information, what's the overall assessment of this piece? Rarity in the market, general condition found in examples etc etc?

[Scott Gahimer]

I think you got a pretty good pistol. There are some originality and condition issues, so I think price determines how good a deal you got. If you feel like you got what you paid for, that's all that really matters.
I'm pretty sure I have more C/M pistols than most collectors because I like them and have enjoyed studying them.
An all original, nice condition C/M is a tough pistol to find. I have about (10) of them in my collection, and they're all very nice. It has taken a fair amount of time to acquire them...especially the last 2-3 because I collect by serial range...860xxx, 861xxx, 862xxx, etc.
The first few were easier. But then filling in all the slots got a bit tougher.
My experience is when you find them 100% original parts, they're usually pretty nice because they've not been monkeyed with and passed around. The same is generally true with all the military .45s.

[russian]

Well I feel I got a good deal for a couple reasons, probably not many out of the 6 or 7 thousand made up here where I am, and its a unique little niche in the hobby of 1911 collecting.

I traded up a 1945 Ithaca mixmaster I had just for this purpose, so I didn't have that buyers remorse or other regrets (with exception of the bushing)

If you have 10 of them, you're really on a roll! I hope to see a collection like that one day.

What would you say are the biggest originality issues with this one?

[Scott Gahimer]

Well I feel I got a good deal for a couple reasons, probably not many out of the 6 or 7 thousand made up here where I am, and its a unique little niche in the hobby of 1911 collecting.

What would you say are the biggest originality issues with this one?

The short answer to your question: Anything that is not original.

Your question is a tough one to answer because it deals with perspective. It's like asking which is the biggest sin. To me, originality is an all or nothing thing...like virginity. We sometimes describe pistols as "mostly original", which bottom line translates to not original. It would be the same thing to describe something as "mostly dependable" or someone as "mostly faithful." My perspective is more black & white pertaining to collectibles. With originality I don't see all the different color shades. A near miss is still a miss.

All this does not diminish the value of your pistol in my opinion. It is what it is. Value is not a black & white thing. A pistol that is mostly original has far more value than one that is not.

Some pistols have incorrect, replaced or altered parts. Sometimes those parts can be changed for original finish parts of a correct type. However, that pistol is still not original IMO; it is correct(ed). Whether a little thing or a big thing, once a pistol loses it's original status, it can't be restored. Some of the $$ value can be restored if proper parts are restored to the pistol. But value and originality are different things.

This sometimes offends, frustrates or angers people because they think I'm looking down my nose at them or their pistol. I assure you I'm not. I just think we're better off being realists or purists regarding originality as collectors, because once the lines get blurred, it's all downhill from there. To maintain, we have to see and know the difference.

I agree, you are lucky to find a C/M...regardless of where you live. They're not common, even here in the U.S.A.

[russian]

Scott, I appreciate your opinion and viewpoint, which is why I have kept pestering you so much :p You're right, it is what it is and such is life. Like with anything, it would have been great to get it in 'virgin' condition like you indicated, but I didn't. Its no big deal for me, time is what fortifies the collection. I started in M1 Carbine collecting, and I recall feeling disappointed I didn't get anything more than a postwar mixmaster for my first one. Over time though, I improved, found others and worked myself to a level to be able to find and get what I wanted. I am back to square one with Colt 1911's however. So thanks for your time and knowledge, it was very worthwhile for me and will help when I find others and evaluate them.