Secret Service & 1911's

[drdoom]

I was inside the US Secret Service's training facility and noticed that in the lobby of their firearms training center, was a showcase of weapons. The showcase included actual firearms, handguns, rifles, sub machine guns, and assault rifles issued to thier G men from past to present.

Regarding their handguns, they went from .32's to .38's to .45 1911's (from roughly the late 40's-late 60's) then to .357 mag to 9mm and finally to .357 Sig.

My question is:

Why do you think they would go from .45's to .357 mags? I didn't get a chance to ask when I was there.

Thanks!

[Tom]

Why do you think they would go from .45's to .357 mags? I didn't get a chance to ask when I was there.


Could be any number of reasons, both logical and otherwise. The only logical one that springs to mind is that there may have been some reliability issues - real or perceived - with the M1911 so the Agency opted to go back to a reliable firearm like a revolver. Or maybe someone in the requisitioning department had a brother-in-law who made .357 Mag ammo. Hard to say, really.

[9kfever]

Ill ask my friends brother. He is SS in California. He carries a 357 SIG and has helped his brother convert his 40 SIG to a 357 SIG

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you ever have seen them open up the back end of one of their vehicles - they carry a *lot* more than just a pistol ....

Bob

[9kfever]

Very true, large rifle boxes =). However when on counterfeit detail (the majority of SS and the reason for it's beginning) I do not believe they are as well armed.

[pa_guns]

Very true, large rifle boxes =). However when on counterfeit detail (the majority of SS and the reason for it's beginning) I do not believe they are as well armed.

Hi

The only ones I have run into were on security for the President. They had a *lot* of stuff with them. I don't know if they could have stopped a tank, but they were set up for anything short of that ....

My guess is that even on "normal" duties, they have some interesting hardware in the trunk. It's become pretty standard to have some "just in case" gear in any law enforcement situation. They certainly bring some wild stuff to the local range to practice with ....

Bob

[9kfever]

I know they have more than just their SIG and backup. Ill ask him

[prophet42]

Hi

The only ones I have run into were on security for the President. They had a *lot* of stuff with them. I don't know if they could have stopped a tank, but they were set up for anything short of that ....

My guess is that even on "normal" duties, they have some interesting hardware in the trunk. It's become pretty standard to have some "just in case" gear in any law enforcement situation. They certainly bring some wild stuff to the local range to practice with ....

Bob
actually i think they probably do have stuff to stop a tank I know they use stinger anti aircraft missiles, and they can fit in a large rifle case, so can an AT4 antitank rocket for that matter

[drdoom]

All gun carrying personnel (agents and officers) are issued a P229 in .357 Sig. Are cross trained in HK MP5's (9mm), Remington 870 shot guns, and some are trained in FN P90's. One group supplements their sidearm with .300 Win Mag rifles and another with AR-15's. Off duty weapons are limited to Sigs, P230/P232 (.380) P228 (9MM) & P239 (9MM & .357 Sig). Those who have been "grandfathered in" can carry a .38 or .357 Mag. Those on a "special assignment" are authorized to carry a "glove" that fits. 9KFEVER, I'm sure your bro's friend will tell you basically the same.

I just feel like going from a 7-9 shot .45 ACP to a 5-6 shot .357 Mag was going back in time.

[9kfever]

oh ok...but the 357 sig is like 12 or 14 right?

[drdoom]

Yes, .357 Sig 12+1. Regarding this thread and the .45 ACP to .357 Mag, in my first post I was actually referring to the transition that occurred in the the late 1960's or early 1970's from .45 ACP to .357 Mag. I wonder why?

[toolman]

Does the P229 in .357 Sig. agents and officers are issued have a da/sa trigger or are they DAO? What is the general opinon among agents and officers of the two different trigger systems? I'm kindofa M1911 person but I also like a smooth Double action trigger such as the S&W DA revolvers. Are they allowed to choose which trigger system they prefer?

[Tom]

n my first post I was actually referring to the transition that occurred in the the late 1960's or early 1970's from .45 ACP to .357 Mag.
And from the semi-auto to the revolver, right?

[drdoom]

Issued P229's are DA/SA and must remain that way (no choice). IMHO I prefer the DAK, as there is no need to decock (one less step following a fire fight) probably also because I was initially trained on a Glock. As far as the two (three now) trigger systems, not including DAK because it's new, I think most agents prefer the DA/SA instead of the DAO, mainly because a few came from small county or big city police departments where heavy & long DAO triggers were implemented to avoid any liability issues. Off duty Sigs can be purchased in DAO, DA/SA, or DAK. Most guys & gals I know purchase off duty weapons in the same configuration and caliber as their duty pistols because they are familiar with the controls and will alway revert to their training.

Tom

"I was actually referring to the transition that occurred in the the late 1960's or early 1970's from .45 ACP to .357 Mag."

Your right I basically wanted to know what your (the forum's) thought was regarding going from the semi-auto to the revolver?

[OD*]

What were the dates of the SS using the 1911?
This is the first I read the SS ever having the 1911 as an official side arm.

[drdoom]

I believe the dates were either late 50's to late 60's or maybe 70's. Im not sure the exact dates, but the 1911 was either issued or allowed to be carried by members of the US Secret Service. I don't know how "uniform" the Secret Service was back in the day in terms of firearms. I saw a display located at their academy which showcased all of the guns they were issued or allowed to carry since 1865. It went something like this: .32 revolver, .38 revolver, .45 1911, .357 Mag, 9MM semi auto, to today's .357 Sig, and that was the handgun side of it. I'm in the process of finding out what was the deal with the 1911.

[OD*]

I'm in the process of finding out what was the deal with the 1911.
I think you will find it "may" have been allowed, I don't believe it was ever the standard issue of the Secret Service.

[Rich-D]

Yes, .357 Sig 12+1. Regarding this thread and the .45 ACP to .357 Mag, in my first post I was actually referring to the transition that occurred in the the late 1960's or early 1970's from .45 ACP to .357 Mag. I wonder why?

An ATF Agent I often worked with in the 70's carried a S&W Stainless Steel in Model 19 configuration, however the model number differed. The Treasury Dept included the Secret Service and the ATF. He informed me that the .357 carried 110 gr HP .38's for close quarter protection assignments such as Presidential protection. The 110gr HP .38 not having the over penetration factor in tight crowds. And the .357 round for all other duties.

So it may be the fact that the bullet configurations was more versatile then a .45 and another consideration may be the fact that HP ammo at the time was not as reliable in an auto, as it is today.


Rich

[9kfever]

^^^ makes a lot of sense ^^^

[Reconvic]

I worked for the DOD for over 20 years and trust me I still like the 45 ACP, the 357 had over penetration problems so they went to the SIG .357 round which is ok I own one, I also own 4 SIG 220's which I prefer over the SIG .357 round it is all about being able to shoot more accurately and holding more rounds and of course the price is right.Now that I am fully retired for years i carry my Sigs and 1911 almost always, I also have 2 9mm which I let the wife shoot, I just don't like the round for stopping power.
Vic

[drdoom]

Well I received a message today from one of our "weapons personnel" according to him 1911a1's were the issue weapon for agents and only agents from the mid 1930's to the early 1960's. Officers were issued .38 revolvers. In the early 1960's everyone was switched over to .38 revolvers. According to him (his message) they carried a couple of less rounds but they carried some +P+ .38 load, a weird load he mentioned but I couldn't make out in the message. He made reference to it providing superior ballistics to the .45 acp loads of that time and the word "lot" was mentioned in the caliber's name, am now in the process of trying to figure what he left on the message.

[Reconvic]

Field agents carry different weapons then normal Secret Service personal to start with. I believe what your friend was referring to the 38 Super which even today has a
place in protection. It is a hot load , yet very controllable.

[Rich-D]

The ATF Agent I worked with had a S&W.357 Magnum 2.5" in Stainless, during the 70's. I also found the below on the Curio & Relic list.

Colt, ATF Special Edition, Deluxe model automatic pistol, cal. .45 ACP.
Colt, ATF Special Edition, Python Revolver model automatic pistol, cal. .357 magnum.
Colt, ATF Special Edition, standard model automatic pistol, cal. .45 ACP Colt, Abilene.


Rich