Remington Rand evaluation

[Mausermeade]

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum but not to collecting. My interests have been K98k's and P38s besides some modern firearms . I have a modern Colt 1911 but am looking for info on a Remington Rand USGI 1911 that is a potential purchase.
This is the description I was given:

" This is a Remington Rand, serial number 1924135 made in 1943. All the markings on the gun are correct. Top of barrel and frame has the "P"(proof mark) stamp. Left side of frame behind trigger is stamped "FJA" for ordinance inspector Col. Frank J. Atwood. Right rear of frame has the ordinance department inspector stamp (this is typically a very softly stamped hard to see mark). Magazine is original and made by General Shaver (stamp mark is "G"). Barrel is correct and stamped HS for high standard. The high standard barrels were blued. Grips are correct and made by Keyes Fibre Co. and are marked "K" inside a five pointed star. Parkerized finish and about 97%. Slide has the two tone appearance in the correct areas because of the heat treatment process in the making of the weapon. That is another indicator that parkerized finish is right.No gleam on the field during war. THIS IS A GREAT COLLECTOR PIECE THAT IS ALL ORIGINAL. There are many fakes or parts guns on the market that are worth less. They won’t have the stamps on the gun. The numbers match up. This is a very solid nice gun. You can look the serial up too. The gun was just sitting in the guy’s basement since grandpa made it back from the war. And he probably didn’t care if he ever saw it again. "

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/meademac/RR19115.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/meademac/RR19114.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/meademac/RR19113.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/meademac/RR19112.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/meademac/RR19111.jpg

My initial impressions with my limited knowledge of these guns are that it is in very good shape and condition may match the "story". But as always you must buy the gun not the story. The only thing that doesn't sit well with me is the finish. I have looked at some other RR guns in this forum and the finish is different and is very good (refinished?).Also the serial# looks like late 1944 instead of 1943. Thus later guns should be parkerized , so finish is correct? I would appreciate any other informed opinions about this gun and maybe some idea of value. I do realize that value can be quite different in different areas but a ballpark amount would be helpful.
Thanks in advance ,
Meade

[Doran]

Always difficult to say definitely from pictures on a computer monitor but I believe a refinish. All small parts appear the same color except for a couple pins which is not the case with original finish pistols. The barrel looks parkerized and the same color as the rest of the pistol not blue as the seller states, if that was his intention.

[joninKS]

Mausermeade, I'm far from being an expert on these guns but did see a question posted today on another forum about a Rem/Rand I believe made in 1944. It seemed a good solid pistol, and like yours appears to have original parts. The only downer was that it had been "professionally reparkerized. The answers to his query as to what it was worth, (he was considering buying it) mostly were that the refinishing took it out of the collector grade and reduced it to shooter grade, that being 600-800 dollars. .Also stated that the barrell condition would have everything to do with it. The opinion was that if it were in original condition with a fine barrell it could be worth between $1500 and $2000. I am repeating just what I read and someone possibly could have an idea. One reply said an original barrel in fine condition could be worth as much as the asking price of the pistol. Further I Knoweth Not.

[bgiven]

If it is still a 'potential' purchase.... I would certainly back off, from what I see in the pictures. I agree with Doran.... the pictures say, restored, especially the barrel and small parts.

[rondawg]

Wouldn't it still be worth buying if the price was right? I'm no collector, but I'd jump on something like that if I could afford it. But the absolute "correctness" of every minute detail isn't that important to me. I figure guns that old that haven't been refinished or modified in any way are scarce as hen's teeth, and I'd like to have an old war gun someday regardless of it's condition. Just trying to understand the "I'd back away" opinions.

I keep hoping I'll stumble across one someday, but I've never known anybody that ever had an old Colt .45, no relatives or neighbors. I'd love to find an old "grandpa's gun" that somebody wants to sell.

[Scott Gahimer]

It looks refinished, based on the photos provided. It doesn't look like a military refinish either. Value is as a shooter only. For a shooter, I'd rather have a nice used Sig Sauer P220 for $400-$500. For less than $400, then it would be a good buy as a shooter. Anything above that, and you're payable collectible value for a non-collectible IMO.
A legitimate arsenal refinish is worth more than $500, but only because it has some collector interest. Unless this gun is a gift, I'd pass. BTW, serial number inidcates it was made in late 1944...not 1943.

[bgiven]

Just trying to understand the "I'd back away" opinions.

I, like many other collectors, will pass on a restored piece due to the fact that most of the collectibility has been washed away in the restoration process. I would much rather spend the money for an original, in any condition, because it is just that..... original. They are only original once. Additionally, an original will appreciate in value.... and let's face it, that is one of the reasons we collect these, or anything, for that matter.

These are not Hot Rods...... a Boyd Coddington will appreciate, but a Doug Turnbull 1911, while beautiful, will never appreciate at the rate of any original. IMO.

[Mausermeade]

Hey rondawg,
You never know what comes your way. This gun showed up from a friend of a friend. The "story" is it was a vet's gun,but I have not seen this gun yet. I do know he was offered a significant figure from a large reputable gun dealer,but they did not have the particular shotgun he was looking for. I hope to put my hands on this piece this weekend. I am looking for specific items to look for to confirm refinishing. This piece should have a blued barrel from what I understand and the feed ramps should be in the "white". Any other telltale areas that I can confirm a refinish?
Thanks for your opinions,
Meade

P.S. I like to shoot my firearms so if it ends up a shooter I'll still be happy, but will throw a shooter price.

[bgiven]

The "story" is ........


...... don't buy the story.... buy the gun.

[rondawg]

I, like many other collectors, will pass on a restored piece due to the fact that most of the collectibility has been washed away in the restoration process. I would much rather spend the money for an original, in any condition, because it is just that..... original. They are only original once. Additionally, an original will appreciate in value.... and let's face it, that is one of the reasons we collect these, or anything, for that matter.

These are not Hot Rods...... a Boyd Coddington will appreciate, but a Doug Turnbull 1911, while beautiful, will never appreciate at the rate of any original. IMO.

That's cool, I understand the requirement for a certain degree of perfection in serious collecting. I'm just not as serious about it, and would rather save a few bucks. The refinished one would still be just as cool to me, and it wouldn't bother me to shoot and enjoy it.

I guess I was asking that the above gun is still worthy of BUYING, but not necessarily COLLECTING? As long as it's not priced as a collectable, that is.

[Doran]

Modern pistols make the best shooters. Better metallurgy, better sights and etc. If you wish to own one refinished vintage pistol only as a shooter then don't pay more than the price of a modern clone for one.

Most people don't stop with just one of these and get more discriminating as their interest grows. Don't be stuck with all your money in refinished/parts pistols when a nice one comes along but you can't sell your others fast enough to buy it.

[Scott Gahimer]

Don't be stuck with all your money in refinished/parts pistols when a nice one comes along but you can't sell your others fast enough to buy it.

I agree. A really nice original piece might cost 4 times what a refinshed parts gun does, but...
1) There are 5 times as many buyers lined up for the original pieces.
2) You'll work 5 times as hard to sell a refinished piece.
3) You've got to sell 4 times as many refinshed pieces just to buy one original.

I don't think it's worth all the extra time, trouble and effort if your intention is to upgrade to an original piece.
However, for the guy that simply wants a cheap shooter or something for reenactments...if he can find one reasonably priced, I think that's great.

The problem is most sellers with the refinished and mismatched pieces price their stuff like a collectible.
As a buyer, I think one needs to determine value based on originality...with original meaning exactly like it left the factory.

Many sellers use the term "original" pretty loosely. Just because a pistol has all the same type parts and markings it did when it was new does not imply anything about it's originality. The pistol has to be entirely original finish and correct parts to ever possibly be considered "original".

Many sellers also confuse the terms "correct" and "corrected". If parts have been changed , it is neither original or correct IMO.
Some may argue you can't see the difference. Maybe so for some, but that still doesn't make a pistol original.

There are a lot of differences in small parts, textures and colors of finish, wear patterns, machining, etc., that allow someone knowledgeable a good opportunity to spot parts that have been swapped out.
Nobody ought to be paying a big price for a pistol unless they can look at it and know it is original. Just because a seller says so doesn't make it true. Anything above shooter is a big price IMO. Why pay for something that's not there?

[Mausermeade]

Well I got to see this gun in person and it was obviously refinished. The barrel was not blued and the mag also had the same rough finish. The gun seemed like it was in decent shape under the finish . It did look like it had a line of rust under the finish between the mainspring housing and the the grip on the right side. It is nice mechanically and would make a decent shooter or a restoration prospect.
I did make an offer for a shooter only. Thanks to all who responded and as always buy the gun not the story. ;)

[1911Tuner]

If parts have been changed , it is neither original or correct IMO.

If the gun has seen real use...war zone or just as a trainer/familirization pistol...chances are high that something has been changed by a unit armorer.

[Scott Gahimer]

While there were established rebuild programs which schedued the Garand and M1 Carbine rifles for regular rebuilds, no official program ever existed for the M1911 and M1911A1 pistols. The pistols were sent in on an as-needed basis only up until the time the Beretta M9 replaced them.

Most M1911A1 pistols that were still in service post-WWII would not have seen enough use to require much, if any, service. In fact, 20-30 years later, there were still some original pistols in military use.

The pistols were designed and manufactured to fire thousands of rounds before any part would require being changed or repaired.

I believe there have been more parts changed in the last 40 years since the pistols started being sold on the commercial market.

In the last 16 years since Clawson's book surfaced, information has become available to help us know what parts were original on which pistols. As collector interest continues to grow, many would-be sellers swap parts and refinish to boost value to those who don't know the difference.

[1911Tuner]

e there were established rebuild programs which schedued the Garand and M1 Carbine rifles for regular rebuilds, no official program ever existed for the M1911 and M1911A1 pistols.

I know, Scott...but they did go in for maintenence every so often. Detail stripping for cleaning, inspection, etc. The method was generally to strip a dozen...toss all the small parts into a basket...dunk...apply compressed air and wipe...oil and reassemble.
Slide/frame/barrel sets usually stayed together...usually.

[Scott Gahimer]

I think we must be talking about two different times in history.
Most WWII veterans I've talked to when I acquired their pistols never turned them in for any kind of maintenance from the time they received them to the time they carried them home.
I'm not denying some pistols at later dates were perhaps maintained as you say at some locations. But most of the pistols I've seen as they came home with the veterans were nice condition and still original.
Still today, most nice original finish pistols I see still have all their original parts.

[1911Tuner]

I think we must be talking about two different times in history.
Most WWII veterans I've talked to when I acquired their pistols never turned them in for any kind of maintenance from the time they received them to the time they carried them home.

No. I'm talking about the pistols that weren't stolen or sold as issued to officers...or presented to General Officers. The ones that maybe never went to war, but remained in the armories for each new group of trainees to "familiarize" with...from the time they were delivered until they were surplused out and sold through the NRA...for 12 bucks plus shipping. Those.

[Scott Gahimer]

If you are implying there is a difference between a working man's pistol and an officer's pistol regarding durability, I must repectfully disagree. All the pistols were made to the same specifications, regardless of who they were issued to or how they were going to be used.

Several improvements were made to the pistols during the years they were produced, which resulted in a more durable pistol by the end of WWII. But even in the beginning, the pistol proved itself during the trials of 1911. The Colt fired more than 6000 rounds and functioned perfectly in 15 different tests. That is fact, not fiction. It's in the Ordnance Dept. records.

When pistols were sold through the DCM ($17.00 including Railway Express shipping), there were still some NIB Remington Rands in the 2.4M serial range on hand that were sold. But the bulk of the DCM sales guns had been rebuilt and refinished by the late 1950s-early 1960s...not because they were scheduled for rebuild...but because they needed to be rebuilt.
When the DCM sales ceased in the '60s, that was the end of pistols being released from the military to the public.

Today, the bulk of original guns seen came home with guys after the wars they used them in. They stole them. Others came home with retired officers or others who'd been required to purchase their pistols. Some (mostly 2.4M Rem Rands) were even DCM sales.
The guns are either original or they're not. It doesn't make any difference who used them or how they were used.

I acknowledge there were plenty of pistols rebuilt or repaired at unit level or repair arsenals that were used, and used and then used some more at training facilities. They're just not original or correct as they left the factory. Once parts are changed...regardless of who changed them or why...they're not original anymore. I do distinguish a difference between those pistols with a legitimate military arsenal refinish and those with a commercial "bubba" refinish to boost value. A commercially done refinish is never worth as much as a legitimate military rebuild. There is a substantial difference in value as far as I'm concerned. If a guy wants a military rebuild, I think he ought to buy a real one with a finish that's at least 30 years old...and more likely 50-80 years old.

The Remington Rand in question at the lead of this thread is not original, nor is it a legitimate military refinish. It's a bubba model. The finish looks fresh, as one being done recently with an aftermarket zinc phosphate. The description the seller gave was pretty much inaccurate throughout. I'm happy the potential buyer saw the pistol for what it is once he had a chance to inspect it.

I think we've beat this dead :dead_horshorse long enough. You get the last word as far as I'm concerned.:)

[1911Tuner]

If you are implying there is a difference between a working man's pistol and an officer's pistol regarding durability, I must repectfully disagree.

I never suggested that. I suggested that maybe there were a good many pistols issued new or nearly new that were never returned to the armories, as opposed to the hundreds of thousands that were returned...and used until they were finally phased completely out in the mid to late 80s...and that there aren't many of those that we happen upon today that have every single original part that they were born with after untold thousands of people trained with, handled, fired, used and abused the guns for
decades.

[joninKS]

Quote: ...original guns came home from the wars they were used in. They stole them. . .

I think you may be painting with too wide a brush here. I say this only from my own experience. The 1911A1's which were issued to our company were carefully accounted for. I can vouch for this as I was one who was appointed to watch over the wooden crates they were packed in and transported in a 6X6 to the port of departure in Korea. Looking back now, I think it would have been a very hard task to steal one of these and get away with it. We were watched so carefully that a Bulova military watch, which I had lost the receipt for the purchase, was confiscated from me. I think most of these pistols were sold legally in the early 50's and continuing on thru the 60's. But that's just my take on the issue.

[1911Tuner]

Not painting anything, Jon. I know that they were carefully accounted for, and that sea bags were subject to random checks...but many still slipped through the cracks. I have one such in my possession, along with a nice P-38 that came out of the Ardennes by way of my own father. Pistols that went into a campaign and never returned were usually picked up by somebody...either American troops or one of our enemies, the same way that we picked up theirs. I'll be that, if you dug hard enough around Berlin and Moscow...you might find quite a few nice, original USGI pistols and M1 rifles.

The logistics of trying to account for every weapon in every theater would be staggering. By war's end, I'd venture a guess that those in charge of such accounting just flat didn't give a rip. All they wanted to do was finish the paperwork and grab a beer...and go home. If there are 2500 MIAs still unaccounted for from Vietnam...one has to wonder how many 1911 pistols are so lost.

You know what they say..."The further from Division ya get...the less the rules mean."

Maybe "stolen" isn't a good word. "Liberated" or "Appropriated" might be better.

[joninKS]

Tuner I agree with what you say and FWIW it wasn't your posting I was referring to, but the one immediately preceding it. I still am trying how to figure out how "the guys who were issued the pistol brought them home", paraphrasing a little. Everyone I knew at that time wanted a pistol, some had brought them from home, well documented. There was no plan that I am aware of that the pistols could be "bought from the government."

A good book covering this is "The Pistol", by James Jones, the guy who wrote "From Here To Eternity." At least in my time, control of sidearms was heavy, and if one went missing, no one had any peace till it was found.

[1911Tuner]

There was no plan that I am aware of that the pistols could be "bought from the government." Oh, sure. In the 60s, there were thousands of 1911 pistols, .30 Carbines, and '03 Springfields sold through the DCM and the NRA. My father bought a nice Union Switch and a Colt for 14 bucks apiece...including shipping and handling...and the mailman brought'em to the house.
He ordered again a few months later, and 30 days later, two 1918 Colts arrived. Both were in serviceable condition, and one was in what I'd say was excellent shape for its age. I still have it.

He also ordred two .30 carbines. One was a Winchester and the other was a General Motors. Both had 90% of the finish, and one had nearly new furniture. $17.50 each plus $2.50 shipping. Later on, he bought an '03-A3 with a sharp, clean 4-groove barrel. I still have that one, but I haven't had it out in a while, so I'll go look to see who the contractor was. I'm thinkin' Royal Typewriter...but don't hold me to that.

None of the guns listed above had any rearsenal marks...and as much as I'd like to believe that they're original, I'm also a realist. The chances that any of'em have every single part that they were delivered with is pretty slim. Even though they're era-correct, and appear to be origional...I wouldn't want to bet a lot of money on it.

The criteria for all parts from all five WW2 contractors be fully interchangeable had a reason behind it. Expediency and ease of service in the field were two of the most important.

Anyway...those were better days. It all came to a screechin' halt in '68.

EDIT TO ADD:

The Springfield is a Smith-Corona. Just remembered... :rolleyes: