Series 70 Gold Cup slide question

[GoldCupAholic]

As I have posted before, I recently bought a Gold Cup made in 1971. I took it apart to clean it, and I as I was cleaning the slide, I notice that I could see the extractor from the underneath of the slide. I looked closer, and saw that the slide has been cut on both sides of the firing pin channel. It appears that a round "saw" or milling cutter was used to cut out the two channels, exposing the extractor on one side, and of course nothing on the other side. Any chance this was done at the factory? I've never seen it before! Thanks!

[Hunter]

Yes you have a GCNM wad gun. The slide was lightened from the factory to shoot low pressure target loads. You should not shoot standard pressure loads in that pistol.
I was under the impression that this was not done in the Series 70 Gold Cup National Matches. I would call Cindy at Colt with the serial number to be sure.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/nm.htm

[GoldCupAholic]

Thanks Hunter! The slide on it has the Series 70 markings on the side. So, you think it's unusual for a Series 70 to have this done? Rare or no big deal? I'm glad to know at least it was done at the factory. Thanks for the info on not shooting it with standard power rounds. I don't think I'll be shooting it that much. I'll call Cindy tomorrow and see what she says.

[OD*]

The frame was lightened from the factory to shoot low pressure target loads.
Frame or slide? I've seen the slides lightened, can't say I've seen a lightened receiver.

[Hunter]

Corrected (I meant to type slide). Thanks OD.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Definitely give Colt a call. Just about anything that was done at the factory was copied by gunsmiths.

Bob

[Joni Lynn]

Sounds like a pre 70 series slide, hollow in the back and probably lightened up in the front also. I haven't seen a 70 series like that but that doesn't mean anything. When I shoot my older Gold Cups I use target velocity ammo since the slides can't be replaced if one was to crack.

[OD*]

Corrected (I meant to type slide). Thanks OD.
I figured, but you know I had to jab you, my stick was getting lonesome. ;)

[GoldCupAholic]

I will call Colt tomorrow. I'd be suprised if they kept THAT good of records on things like whether or not the slide on a particular gun had this done to it. I bought this from the original owner, and he didn't mention any gunsmithing being done on it. It looks to me like the original blueing, but I'm no expert. If this was done at the fatcory, is it something special? Thank you all for you input, and wealth of knowledge!

[skipsan]

Sounds like a pre 70 series slide, hollow in the back and probably lightened up in the front also. I haven't seen a 70 series like that but that doesn't mean anything. When I shoot my older Gold Cups I use target velocity ammo since the slides can't be replaced if one was to crack.

Could you be more specific as to what constitutes an "older" Gold Cup? All 70 Series? I've been looking for a really nice S70 GC, maybe not realizing that the slides were failure prone and not replaceable. Thx.

[pa_guns]

I will call Colt tomorrow. I'd be suprised if they kept THAT good of records on things like whether or not the slide on a particular gun had this done to it.

Hi

They have pretty good records. If it was sold as a standard factory product, the records probably include the slide details. If it was done as a custom, you could still get lucky.

Bob

[Joni Lynn]

The original Gold Cup actually only said Gold Cup on the box, the gun itself said only National Match. They were introduced in 1957 and continued up to the series 70. The series 70 shouldn't have one of the older slides unless they installed it at the factory either by special order or some other reason, I've never seen an old slide on a 70 like yours. I have a bunch of Gold Cups and have never run into this. It's somewhat unique.
I'd love to see some pics of the slide, both outside and the inside.
The slides aren't what I would term failure prone, just a bit thin and they've developed this fragile reputation over the years. Comparing them side by side I can see why. I've never actually seen one that has cracked or been damaged by use.

[GoldCupAholic]

I just got off the phone with Colt. They told me that they gun didn't leave the factory like that, but it could have been returned to them and had the modification done, but they have no records about that. This kind of irritates me because I bought the gun solely as a collector, as I got the original box and test target. I have a call into the guy I bought it from (private party). He told me he bought it new. I'll see if he has any info on it. You know my next question is how much does this de-value the gun?

Joni, I have a picture of the slide, but i can't figure out how to post it. I can send you a link to it if you want..

[dakota1911]

I have not seen a 70 Series GCNM like that either, but I note it is an early one and could see a bullseye shooter who had used and was used to the older guns order a 70 series like that. If it was done by Colt it would probably have value add to some collectors.

[GoldCupAholic]

Well, the guy did tell me that he used it in competitions in the 70's, but I would think he would have mentioned it if he had the work done. I guess if I had something done 30 plus years ago, it could slip my mind too! Don't get me started on remembering what I had for breakfast!

The front sight is loose, I'm thinking about sending the slide to Colt and have them fix that, and take a look at the cuts to make sure it was done right. Maybe they can ID their work too. If it was them....

[Joni Lynn]

If you'd like to email me a pic or a link I'd like to see the left side of the outside of the slide and the inside front & rear. Thanks.

[OD*]

I just got off the phone with Colt. They told me that they gun didn't leave the factory like that,
To whom did you speak? You may have to part with a C note for a factory letter, they will only tell you so much over the phone.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/2005%20COLT%20ARCHIVE%20SERVICES%20PRICE%20LIST.pdf

[GoldCupAholic]

I talked to a guy named Paul. I tried to talk to Cindy, but the automated phone system wanted the first three letters of the persons last name. Paul told me he would talk to a gunsmith and call me back tomorrow. He called about 30 minutes later and told me what I posted above.

[paul45]

Quite interesting. Like the recent post from the gentleman who purchased the LNIB series 80 Commander in bright nickel finish, that Colt claims left the factory satin nickel......but the original box says bright nickel.

Makes me go .........Hummmmmmmmm...... :confused:

[GoldCupAholic]

Thank you guys for your interest in this. I just listened to the voice mail I got from Paul again. He says:

"Hello Sir, this is Paul calling from Colts Manufacturing. I just wanted to let you know, that was standard for the Series 80, to assist in the ejection of the shells, ah, after 1992 basically, and that would not have been standard on the serial numbered gun that you gave us, which is a Series 70. And if that was done, it would have been outside, after it left the factory. Thank you. (pause) Or it could have been returned to the factory and done here. Thank you."

I was thinking about this, and it appears that he (Paul) didn't quite understand what I was talking about. This lightening modification could not ever be done to a Series 80 gun, as it would wipe out the firing pin block, right?

[pa_guns]

The front sight is loose, I'm thinking about sending the slide to Colt and have them fix that, and take a look at the cuts to make sure it was done right. Maybe they can ID their work too. If it was them....

Hi

Loose front sights are not all that uncommon. It's something a local gunsmith probably can fix easily. If you send the pistol back to Colt, I'd come up with a list of things to get done. One thing one to consider is a re-finish, it's got a bit of a minus on the collector side though.

Bob

[GoldCupAholic]

Hi Bob, I thought about having them re-blue the slide. I'm wondering about how much the collector value has been changed with the machining to the slide already. A refinish may not make a difference!

[Joni Lynn]

If the gun was done by Colt I doubt I'd have anything else done to it.
You're correct, the series 80 parts wouldn't work in a slide cut such as yours.

[pa_guns]

Hi Bob, I thought about having them re-blue the slide. I'm wondering about how much the collector value has been changed with the machining to the slide already. A refinish may not make a difference!

Hi

If you go the finish route, do the whole pistol. You want to make it all look the same. I would not re-finish it if there is no need. If the pistol is a "shooter", then go for it. If it's an "investment" then don't even think about doing it.

Personally, I own "shooters" and don't look at weapons as investments ....

Bob

[Tomcatt]

I don't know about GC's but I have a Combat Commander that was made in 1973 that has the lightening cuts in the slide.

Tomcatt

[pa_guns]

I don't know about GC's but I have a Combat Commander that was made in 1973 that has the lightening cuts in the slide.

Tomcatt

Hi

That's a new one on me.

Bob

[DENDEN]

After reading this thread I had to go to the gun box and start looking at mine. My 70 series Gold Cup doe not have the deeper cut on the extractor side. My 70 series Combat Commander does, like Tomcatt's. My Ace (made in the late 70's) also has a visible extractor. Is it possible that Colt changed processes at some point utilizing sawing rather than milling and due to tolerance stack up the remaining material was sometimes so thin they decided to cut all the way thru? You can see this area with the slide locked back and looking underneath. As an aside I remember reading an article by Skeeter Skelton doind a 10000 round torture test on a 70 series GC. He also did a similar test on a LW Commander at the same time. If there is any interest I will try to find the magazine - believe it was published in about 1980.

[GoldCupAholic]

I talked to the original owner of the Gold Cup yesterday. He swears that the gun was bought through a dealer in southern California, who bought it directly from Colt, and immediately transferred it to him. He said the gun never had any gunsmithing done to it, and he really never took it apart. I tend to believe him because there is no takedown scratch on it, and under the dust cover area was pretty gummed up and dirty. I also noticed that the sear anti-bounce spring and lever was still installed. Most people took those parts out, and if a gunsmith in the 70's had messed with it, he\they most probably would have removed those parts.

I sent a picture via email to Colt on Friday, and I'm waiting to see what they have to say.

Tomcatt, interesting about the 1973 Commander with the cuts, that supports my position that this was done at the factory. Thanks for that info!

These cuts are on both sides of the firing pin channel, and look like they were done with a round saw or milling machine.

DENDEN, I'd love to see the torture test article, if you can come up with it!

[DENDEN]

I'll find it but it may take a while as it along with all my books have been packed and moved to a storage bldg. in prep for moving.

[OD*]

DENDEN, check the years 1979 & 1980. The 16,000 (5100 thru a MKIV Government) round torture test article on the Gold Cup and Commander was also published in the October 1980 trade magazine; Skeeter Skelton On Handguns.

[dakota1911]

Clawson's book on the Commercial Series of the Colt. .45 does have a picture of the "Skeletonized Slides" which he notes did exist on Commanders, Gold Cups, and .22 Conversion units and kit slides. Clawson's Book ends with Colts made in 1970.

I have a .22 Colt Conversion Unit made in 1977 which still has the "Skeletonized Slide".

[pa_guns]

I have a .22 Colt Conversion Unit made in 1977 which still has the "Skeletonized Slide".

Hi

Lightweight slides are pretty much the norm on 22 conversions. It makes it a lot easier to get things to function.

Bob

[DENDEN]

OD: My significant other packed all my books. I'm pretty sure it's in a box marked "GUN BOOKS" - unfortunately there are about 20 of these. Dennis

How do you post a printed page or article from a magazine. And should it be in a new thread?

[OD*]

You would probably need to scan it if possible.
Starting a new thread would be a good idea.

[dakota1911]

You can scan them or take a picture with a quality digital camera. Where I go fuzzy is posting a page from say, "American Rifleman" on this website. I am not sure about the legality of it without permission from the publisher. Probably another thread for sure.

[DENDEN]

I found the torture test article today and will post it in a new thread.

[GoldCupAholic]

I emailed a few pictures of my slide to Paul at Colt. This morning he replied:

"I printed off the photos you sent me including the scanned one. I brought them down to our gunsmith and he showed me a slide from 1970 Gold Cup National Match and it is the same as the photos you sent. Therefore, your slide was produced that way from the factory.

Hopefully this information puts you at ease that the work was done originally when the gun was manufactured and not after the fact.

Thank you for your continued interest in Colt."

So that's good news! I have never seen one before, so now I'm wondering how many were made!

Thank you all for your help with this!