United States Property ok?

[thwkman]

Greetings,

This rules for this section of the forum stated the gun had to be marked "US Government Property" mine says UNITED STATES PROPERTY. Is this the same thing? If not please direct to the appropriate section.

I have a Springfield Armory Model 1911 SN 115XXX that was mfg between 1914-1917 according to a source I found.

On the right side of the slide is says "MODEL OF 1911.U.S.ARMY"

On the left side there are 2 symbols that look like an inverted light bulb with 4 leaves sticking out the top(?). Some say it looks like a bomb? They are located above the mag release button and just behind the serration on the left side. There is also an eagle with our stretched wings holding arrows and an olive branch in its talons which I think is the US ARMY emblem?

I am looking for any additional info on this pistol, what the symbols mean, whether the mfg date is correct, any sources to get more detail on the pistol.

Thanks in advance and apologies for any forum faux pas as I am new to the group.

Ron

Here are some pics.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01225.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01223.jpg

[OD*]

Is this the same ting?
Yes Sir, it is.

[Hawkmoon]

What John meant in the rules is that this discussion area is for the true military M1911s and M1911A1s. Early Colt commercial models go elsewhere, and "modern" (meaning post-WW2) Colts go yet another place. You are in the correct place for a WW1 M1911.

[tombstone]

Ron, welcome aboard and WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS????? We like to see them! Better hurry, or the Gunny will be all over you....OD and Hawkmoon were easy on you. Cheers.

[bgiven]

Looks like some parts have been mixed in at some point in time. The slide stop, trigger, grip safety, mainspring housing, hammer, and grips have all been changed. Does this M1911 have any arsenal marks on it ????

Bob

[thwkman]

Thanks for the replies!

I assume by arsenal marks you mean the assembler/inspection marks? I don't see anything like that unless they have been worn away, but I don't even see an indication they were there?

The only other markings are:

A very small x inside the left rail about 3/16 inch behind what I assume to be the ejector pin(?).

On the barrel there is an "HS" on the right side of the link lug and a "D" or "P" on the left side. And the barrel appears to have been crowned?

I took off the grips and nothing is under there. Haven't fully disassembled the frame yet.

How can you tell all those parts have been replaced. I suspected the trigger based on it's short length but the others?

I'm assuming from the SN that it was a non commercial pistol?

Do the markings have any special significance?

How would I go about assessing a fair value for this pistol? Not interested in selling just curious.

Thanks for the help.

Ron

[bigredc]

Many gun were sent to an arsenal and gone over, kind of tuned up. Parts got mixed up, at that point it would get a additional mark, not always. Check out this site and closely examine the parts. There are very slight variations. http://www.coolgunsite.com/

[bgiven]

Since your pictures are so good.....

1. You have a WWII slide stop. WWI had a small milled area under the thumb rest.

2. You have a stamped WWII trigger. WWI were milled and smooth.

3. You have a long tang WWII grip safety. WWI were short.

4. You have an arched WWII mainspring housing. WWI were flat, and smooth.

5. Looks like you have a Colt hammer. Springfield had a very distinct short profile.

6. Grips are 15 row Double Diamond Colt. Springfield are 11 or 12 row.

7. 'HS' and 'P' proofed barrel is WWII High Standard production.

The balance of the internals should be checked, and Springfield stamped most parts with a small 's'.

Bob

[thwkman]

WOW! That coolgun site is unbelieveable. Thanks BigRedC for thr refer. Thanks also to bgiven for the explanation.

My first time posting pics. Thanks to my daughter's camera. Of course most of the time was spent finding the cables to connect it to the PC. Apparently she doesn't down load pics often......

Now that you've piqued my curiosity I guess I'll have to take rest of it apart......

[thwkman]

I'm trying to understand the % of finish left concept. I've been on the blue book site with its sample pics. Can someone proffer what % finish the gun in this thread has? If more pics are needed I can provide.

thanks in advance.

ron

[thwkman]

Glomming onto what BigRedC said. How does one determine if a re-finishing aka re-bluing has occured? Any tell tale signs? I'll be posting more pics soon as I download them from camera.

Ron

[Hawkmoon]

It's easier to spot a poor refinish than a good one. If it's not done well, the buffing process tends to round off the sharp edges where the lettering is roll stamped into the frame and slide, and the corners where all the pin holes are drilled also get slightly softened. These elements should all have good, crisp edges. O careful re-polishing by a skilled craftsman will retain the sharpness and be more difficult to identify as having been refinished.

The experts can chime in as to how to look for where the direction of polishing/buffing changed on the original pistols. I'm not up to that point (yet).

[bigredc]

Mine is very uneven. The USP has been removed. I wonder if it might be a candidate for refinishing. I like the way thwkman's gun looks. I wouldn't mess with that. Mine is all blotchy.

[thwkman]

More pics

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01224.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01226.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01234.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/thwkman/DSC01237.jpg

[thwkman]

The more I look at it the more I think it is original finish. So if we assume it 90%+ how does the fact that are many replaced parts factor in. In reading about the grading schemes 80% and above seem to have an "all original" clause associated with them?

I'm trying to understand whether an orig 90+ 1911 with replacement parts is just a pretty old gun instead of a valuable collector's item?

[Doran]

Collectible pistols retain all original parts and finish. Rarity and condition determine the value and collectible condition pistols bring a premium beyond the value of their parts because few remain in existence.

Parts pistols are worth the value of the parts. A parts pistol with rare parts might be worth a large sum. Your Springfield slide looks to have original finish and possibly the frame although I don't think they are original to each other. Those two parts alone have considerable value.

[bigredc]

I was in the same boat. Except my gun wasn't as nice or as valuable. I spent about 350. getting the correct trigger mainspring housing, grips, slide stop, Next I'm sending it to Doug Turnbull to have USP redone. It's nice to have it correct. I doubt it's worth what I have in it. This the way it looked, before. http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/bigredc222/leftside168xxxresize.jpg

[thwkman]

Your Springfield slide looks to have original finish and possibly the frame although I don't think they are original to each other. Those two parts alone have considerable value.

Doran,

Is there a way to determine whether slide and frame are original to each other? There is no common marking other than the flam,ing bomb thing.

and can you bracket "considerable value" for me.

Thanks for the reply, it advanced my understanding of this new "hobby".

Ron

[Doran]

Color and wear are equivelent on original pistols. Your frame finish looks more worn than the slide and appears slightly different in color. However, that may be the lighting and it's close enough you should get an expert opinion from someone who can inspect the pistol in hand.