Need Help w/ AMT Hardballer Gun will not cock!

[pessemist]

I just bought a used AMT Hardballer 1911. The gun is stainless with an adjustable trigger (hex head screw thru trigger).

When I bought the gun I cycled it several times with no problem and the gun dryfired perfectly.

A couple weeks later I took the gun out to show someone and when I cycled the slide the firing pin, spring and retaining metal piece fell out on the floor.

I've worked on 1911'a before so I removed the slide and replaced the spring, firing pin and the retaining metal piece. I assured myself that the rear of the FP popped into the hole in the metal retainer. So far, so good.

I replaced the slide on the frame (something I've done millions of times during cleaning).

I then went to cycle the gun and the hammer only ends up being in the half-cocked position! I can pull the hammer down to full cock by hand and it locks up perfectly that way. It is like the slide isn't pushing the hammer down far enough to 'catch'. With the slide all the way back I can push just a little on the hammer and hear it 'click' into cocked position.

Everything looks perfect as far as the firing pin and retainer go. I did not disassemble the frame (only took slide off and replaced it without problem).

Help! Any ideas? It is like the gun suddenly decided to sprout a new problem and I can't figure out why the firing pin fell out in the first place (was just dry firing it a couple times).

I'm lost what to try. I have dissaembled 1911's before (thou not this one). I did try the full range of the trigger adjustment as a last resort but to no avail.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Doc Doug

[1911Tuner]

The sear isn't resetting correctly. Could be some interference with the disconnect. Could be a burr on the sear. Could be the sear spring itself. Could be somethin' as simple as needin' a detail strip and a good scrubbin'.

Pull the trigger and hold it back. Rack the slide to cock the hammer. Release the trigger. Does the trigger reset smoothly and completely...or is it sluggish...maybe not returning to the full forward position?

[pessemist]

Pull the trigger and hold it back. Rack the slide to cock the hammer. Release the trigger. Does the trigger reset smoothly and completely...or is it sluggish...maybe not returning to the full forward position?


Seems to be smooth either way. Rarely it DOES cock but 95% of time the hammer goes to the half-cocked position.

I reiterate this was a spontaneous thing. Nobody took the gun apart except for the slide off the frame.

I could tear down the Frame tomorrow and give it a good cleaning.

I feel bad. I bought this for a friend to add to his collection (I'm a FFL holder so it is a legal transfer) and now it's busted and I'm out the money unless I can get it working.

I also understand that standard 1911 parts don't tend to fit this gun.

Any suggestions to look for as I tear it down?

Doug

[1911Tuner]

Detail strip it and clean it. Lightly oil everything and make sure that the sear and disconnect move freely. Finish assembling it, but leave the grip safety out so you can observe what the other parts are doing. Bend the center and left leg of the sear spring forward slightly, and grasp the legs above the junction point, or you'll risk snapping one.

Look at the small triangular portion of the disconnect to see if it's dished out, rough, or other wise damaged to the point that it would cause a snag with the end of the center leg oc the sear spring.

Move the slide backward and watch to see that the disconnect's spade drops below the sear legs...into the disconnected position...and then that it resets easily, so that the trigger can push it to rotate the sear.

It's somethin' simple...

[sevenL4]

I had a Hardballer once. It was an adventure in pistolsmithing. Regular 1911 parts usually worked (they're supposed to), sometimes oversize pins may be required. I got it to be 100% reliable and accurate by doing a little polishing and lots of measuring before changing parts. IIRC only a couple of pins and the slide stop had to be changed. I changed the hammer and trigger because I didn't like the look of the stock ones and was trying for a trigger pull under 3 pounds. My brother owns it now and it works with whatever ammo is on sale. TUNER has you on the right track. Don't give up.

[twin oaks]

Johnny, since he stated that he can hand cock the pistol, and the hammer stays there, I'm inclined to think there's a problem with the FPS. If the hammer is staying fully cocked when he thumbs it, it seems like the sear is engaging the hooks fine. It's only when the slide is cycled that he has a fall to half cock. I'm not familiar with the AMT, so I don't know if there are any extraneous parts, like ser. 80 FP safety, but if the FPS, FP, and FP spring fell out during hand cycling, there's got to be an issue at the rear of the slide. Maybe the bottom of the FPS has been altered, or the FP hole in it has been wallowed to accept a larger diameter FP, or perhaps a smaller dia. FP is currently in place. In any case, the problem seems to lie in the slide's failure to fully cock the hammer, not in the sear's engagement of the hooks.

P.S. Could you post a pic of the rear of the slide?

[twin oaks]

Additional thought- FP is sticking in the tunnel, and not engaging the fps' hole and the fps has moved up enough to miss it's full contact with the hammer?
or a broken FP? or it's shortened a bit?

[jrhweldon]

only saw something like this once , it was on a stainless gun , check FPS and fp spring for a tiny sliver of metal broken off or part of a missing coil , things like this sometimes happen due to metal fatique , a small piece in the wrong place can stop everything good luck jrhweldon

[David Rose]

On older military models that appeared to have a lot of use, the top of the hammer face can wear enough to cause this. I've not seen it on a commercial model though, and only on a few militarys. Another possibly "vague" thing could be disconnector rail polished too much. But I would go through Tuner's ideas first, as it's always a good first step to eliminate the obvious things first.

David

[1911Tuner]

On older military models that appeared to have a lot of use, the top of the hammer face can wear enough to cause this.

I'm gettin' to it...I'm gettin' to it. :D

Okay! Now that we've eliminated the sear/discinnect thing...let's look at the next step.

David touched on a possible problem. It was once the practice of some smiths to reshape the hammer face to the point that the hammer didn't cam back any further than it had to in order to minimize impact between the hooks and sear when the slide goes to battery and drops the hammer hooks back onto the sear. Wear will do the same thing.

Run a quick test:

Cock the hammer and slowly move the slide backward. Watch the hammer as the cocking rail moves across it to see if it cams the hammer past full-cock...and releases it back to the sear when the slide is returned to battery. If it doesn't, either the hammer is worn...the cocking rail is worn or out of spec...or somebody has recontoured the hammer. You may find that the hammer will hold full cock when you fire it. If it does...that's your bug.

[pessemist]

I'm gettin' to it...I'm gettin' to it. :D

Run a quick test:

Cock the hammer and slowly move the slide backward. Watch the hammer as the cocking rail moves across it to see if it cams the hammer past full-cock...and releases it back to the sear when the slide is returned to battery. If it doesn't, either the hammer is worn...the cocking rail is worn or out of spec...or somebody has recontoured the hammer. You may find that the hammer will hold full cock when you fire it. If it does...that's your bug.


It appears that the hammer is not pushed back 'far enough' to cock it. At the very limit of backward hammer movement I can pull the hammer back an additional tiny amount and it resoundingly 'clicks' into the fully cocked position every time otherwise the hammer comes back up to half-cocked position when the slide is released.

I been thinking that perhaps the problem is in the hammer. Afterall, the problem started with the FP retainer falling out. Could the hammer be doing something weird that would make the FP retainer come loose? I am not quite sure what that would be but the two problems may be related somehow?

Doc Doug

[1911Tuner]

I been thinking that perhaps the problem is in the hammer.

Maybe. Probably...but there could also be an issue with the center rail in the slide.
Possible that there's too much clearance between the bottom of the rail and the top of the frame...and a little wear was all it took to push it over the edge. Those pistols were never known for adhering closely to the correct specs.

Detail strip it and put the slide on the frame. From the rear...use small feeler gauges between the bottom of the rail and the top of the frame to determine the clearance, and report back.

[twin oaks]

Post a pic (see FAQ: posting a pic)of the back of the slide, showing firing pin stop / hammer junction, and the hammer face. The whole pic=1000 words thing. If you have it, use the macro function on your camera.

[pessemist]

Post a pic of the back of the slide, showing firing pin stop / hammer junction, and the hammer face. The whole pic=1000 words thing.

Here is as exact photos as my meager skills can provide.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0018.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0015.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0014.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0013.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0012.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0011.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0010.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0009-1.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0009.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0008.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0007.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0006.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0005.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0003.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0002.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/pessemist/DSCF0001.jpg

[Jolly Rogers]

Could it be that the champher at the top of the impact surface of the hammer is cut to deep and allows the slide to pass over without moving the hammer enough?
Also looks like the hammer has hit the frame without the slide installed too. :confused: JR

[1911Tuner]

Hammer doesn't appear to be worn or modified. Center rail is pushing the hammer past the full cock position. Go back to the sear/disconnect inspection. Disassemble and clean. Check for burrs that would interfere with sear reset. Check the center leg of the sear spring position on the disconnect. It should be just slightly below the halfway point on the triangular-shaped protrusion. Check for smooth movement by the spring on this protrusion. If it snags, it can cause problems. The face of the protrusion should be straight, and without a dished appearance.

Check to see that the disconnect moves freely in its channel. Does the top appear to be worn or just barely protruding from the top of the frame when it's up and in the connected position?

Assemble the gun without the grip safety so you can see the disconnect in operation as you pass the slide back and forth over it. Does it disconnect when it's pushed down by the slide? Does it reset smoothly and positively when the trigger is released?

[1911Tuner]

Oh yeah...

While it's apart, check the hammer hooks for any damage, along with the sear crown. Lookin' back at the pictures...your hammer looks like it's riding a little low when it's at full cock.

[pessemist]

Hammer has clean solid 'click' and sets (what I consider perfect) when pulled back just a bit farther than the slide is able to push it. Slide has nice tight fit to tract without obvious wear or excessive (if any) movement.

There is no evidence of hang up on the sear or disconnector. It just feels like the hammer is not going back far enough to engage.

The only time the hammer engages (by the slide) is once in a great while when the slide is 'forcefully' pulled back and even then 19 times out of 20 it fails to cock the hammer.

Every time I hand-cock the hammer it sets with a solid click and there is a nice clean release when the trigger is pulled.

Think I new hammer would fix this?

Doc Doug

[1911Tuner]

Hammer has clean solid 'click' and sets (what I consider perfect) when pulled back just a bit farther than the slide is able to push it. Slide has nice tight fit to tract without obvious wear or excessive (if any) movement.

All of which is irrevelant. Slide fit has nothing to do with the center rail and disconnector function. The hammer will thumb cock and hold with a full 1/8th inch of the sear crown missing. "Feel" can't be trusted. Ya don't know 'til ya know...and the only way to know is to tear it down and see what's goin' on in there.

[pessemist]

All of which is irrevelant. Slide fit has nothing to do with the center rail and disconnector function. The hammer will thumb cock and hold with a full 1/8th inch of the sear crown missing. "Feel" can't be trusted. Ya don't know 'til ya know...and the only way to know is to tear it down and see what's goin' on in there.


OK, I'll tear it down and post pictures if nothing obvious is evident.

Doug

[pessemist]

All of which is irrevelant. Slide fit has nothing to do with the center rail and disconnector function. The hammer will thumb cock and hold with a full 1/8th inch of the sear crown missing. "Feel" can't be trusted. Ya don't know 'til ya know...and the only way to know is to tear it down and see what's goin' on in there.

Johnny


You were absolutely right! I took it apart and found the sear was actually broken in half. The hammer edge is jagged. I can't believe this gun actually cocked at all.

Now the question is where can I get a Stainless Hammer and sear for this old AMT? Any compatibility issues I should know?

Thanks for all the help.

Doc Doug

[1911Tuner]

Yup. Ya don't know 'til ya know... (Sounds like somethin' Yogi Berra would say.)
:D

Hammers and sears are available through Brownells. In most guns, the drop in and work about...half the time. Most others require a little hand work and fitting. AMT Hardballers were never known for their closely-held specs and dimensions...so you may run into a problem or three along the way. I recommend changing the hammer, sear, and disconnect as a set.

[KellyHopkinsville]

[QUOTE=pessemist] I took it apart and found the sear was actually broken in half. The hammer edge is jagged.

Take a look at the fourth picture down in your post of images of the pistol. I think you can see some pretty nasty broken surfaces there...

Best of luck with the pistol.

KH

[pessemist]

[QUOTE=pessemist] I took it apart and found the sear was actually broken in half. The hammer edge is jagged.

Take a look at the fourth picture down in your post of images of the pistol. I think you can see some pretty nasty broken surfaces there...

Best of luck with the pistol.

KH


Yup, those are the two broken pieces of the sear and a nice shot of the jagged edge of the hammer engagement. Pretty obvious now but I didn't even notice in the pics till you pointed it out.

Ordered a set: hammer, sear and disconnect. Also the Sear pin was bent so I ordered a new one of those too.

Hope it works.

thanks again all.

Doc Doug