Front Sight Staking Advice Needed

[78kitty]

I was reading an old post on here (can be found here http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=14232) about a guy who replaced his sights on his RI M1911. Great info guys!

I'm getting ready to redo the front sight on my early manufacture (1985) Colt Series 80 MK IV SS Government Model due to a bad stake job. The sight was a Tritium Night Sight so i think they may've been afraid to hit it too hard for fear of breaking the tritium vial, none the less it wasn't staked properly in the first place. Anyway, I'd appreciate some tips on front sight staking, and also do the new sights have a split down the middle or is the stake just kinda buldged out on the underside of the slide after it's staked? I've read the Brownells Instructions that came with the tool and in my Jerry Kuhnhausen book, but neither one details exactly what happens when the sight is staked; i.e. is the stake spread apart, or swaged out so its too big to go back out the top again.

[gfavaron]

As chance would have it, I just this morning installed a new set of adjustable (Millett) sights to my Series 80 Colt. The Brownell staking tool essentially splits the tenon and spreads it so it can't come back out. I moved the tool around and rapped it six or seven times to mushroom the tenon into the little dimple that I had ground into the slide when removing the old front sight - then smoothed down the mushroom so as to keep it from fouling the barrel bushing. Of course, my front sight was mild steel so I could bang on it without worry about breaking anything. Brownells has a second tool that holds a steel front sight in place while you bang on the tenon inside the slide. I use it also, but I am told that most folks just jury rig a vise to support the front sight.

In your case, a rather expensive special tool is required in order to support the sight AND to protect the tritium vial. Brownells has them for several hundred bucks. I've never used one of those.

Some folks tighten loose stakes with LocTite. Perhaps someone who has done that will weigh in and describe that process.

Good Luck.

[John]

If you want to use a tritium sight at the front, the best way to do it is to have a dovetail cut. Yes, you can use a stake-on sight, but why risk it? Night sights are expensive.

[David Rose]

John, I think he's already got the sight.

78, try to support the upper part of the sight with something relatively soft, like aluminum. But before you start swaging, I would cut just a bit of a bevel on the inside of the slide cut. I think that is the "dimple" gf was speaking of. This is a job for the Dreaded Dremel or some other rotary grinder. All you want is enough of a bevel that the sight won't try to pull back out the top. It is probably better to have a small bevel all along the cut rather than a big one in one spot. Then use some sort of punch to slowly swage the tang material into that bevel. You will run the risk of breaking the vial. But gentle strikes will likely get the job done without it. If you are really concerned about breaking it, take it to a smith and ask him if he will install it and guarantee not to break it. If he will, and it breaks, it is on him.

David, who uses that technique for customers and keeps praying that one won't break... none yet...

[gfavaron]

I know David has probably solved your problems with that advice, but I couldn't resist showing off my new sights that I stumbled and fumbled into place day before yesterday since I mentioned doing so. I did dab a little red LocTite on the tenon of the front sight before banging on it.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/gnoravaf/Series80.jpg

[SW1911SC]

Brownells has this tool available:

1911 AUTO NIGHT SIGHT MOUNTING FIXTURE

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/080000454.jpg


Helps Prevent Tritium Vial Breakage; Accepts All 1911 Stake-On Sights


Heavy, solid steel fixture securely holds the slide and the night sight in the proper, damage-free position for fast and easy staking. Simply prepare the slide to accept the night sight, clamp the slide and sight in the fixture, then clamp the fixture in your bench vise. The night sight is now ready to stake using your Brownells 1911 Front Sight Staking Tool. Can be used with both Government and Commander length slides, and all 1911 stake-on sights.

SPECS: Steel, blue. 5½” (14 cm) long, 1” (2.5cm) wide handle, ¾” (19mm) thick. Includes instructions, clamping plate and screw.


Catalog page 47

Stock Number / Desc

080-000-454
Night Sight Mounting Fixture $34.99

[David Rose]

We've installed hundreds of Milletts over the years. They are durable sights. I installed dual crimps on the front for easy changing. Now that a few customers are wanting dovetailed fronts, I'm in a bind. Either send them to EGW for welding or learn to weld it myself. With your stake in, you won't have that problem.

David

I know David has probably solved your problems with that advice, but I couldn't resist showing off my new sights that I stumbled and fumbled into place day before yesterday since I mentioned doing so. I did dab a little red LocTite on the tenon of the front sight before banging on it.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/gnoravaf/Series80.jpg

[David Rose]

Yeah, I've looked at that tool several times. Every time that a stake in nite sight comes in, I take another look. Then I think, "dovetails are the current installation" and wait. Then another one comes in... Hmmm...

David

Brownells has this tool available:

1911 AUTO NIGHT SIGHT MOUNTING FIXTURE

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/080000454.jpg


Helps Prevent Tritium Vial Breakage; Accepts All 1911 Stake-On Sights


Heavy, solid steel fixture securely holds the slide and the night sight in the proper, damage-free position for fast and easy staking. Simply prepare the slide to accept the night sight, clamp the slide and sight in the fixture, then clamp the fixture in your bench vise. The night sight is now ready to stake using your Brownells 1911 Front Sight Staking Tool. Can be used with both Government and Commander length slides, and all 1911 stake-on sights.

SPECS: Steel, blue. 5½” (14 cm) long, 1” (2.5cm) wide handle, ¾” (19mm) thick. Includes instructions, clamping plate and screw.


Catalog page 47

Stock Number / Desc

080-000-454
Night Sight Mounting Fixture $34.99

[gfavaron]

David, I have used that Brownell sight mounting fixture on several stake in front sights - (all steel Milletts). Haven't tried it on a night sight, but have a hard time seeing how it would be much help as all it does is support the sight firmly in place and properly aligned fore and aft. You still have to bang on the tenon, and I assume that is what shatters the tubes. I do know that Trijicon says "1911 models require use of special Trijicon installation tools to prevent sight damage."

[Dave Berryhill]

If you look at the Trijicon stake-on front sight you'll notice that it has a "skirt" or shoulder at the bottom.
http://www.trijicon.com/parts/ACFB2AF.jpg
That skirt is there so you can support the front sight when staking it without putting any pressure on the top of the blade, which may cause damage to the tritium vial.

In order to install one of these sights you need some means of supporting the front sight by its skirt while swaging the tenon. You can use the Trijicon staking tool, the Brownells tool or make one yourself by cutting a slot in a piece of steel or aluminum. If you look at the Brownells tool in the photo you can see a slot in the left end. The blade of the sight fits into that slot and the skirt rests on the flat portion of the tool on both sides of the slot. As long as the slot is deeper than the height of the front sight blade and the slot is just slightly wider than the width of the sight blade, the dimensions aren't critical.

Before I bought the Trijicon tool, I used a piece of steel that was about 3/8 x 3/8 x 1 inch long with a slot milled into one side that was a bit wider than the sight blade. Set the steel block in the bottom of a drill press or milling vise with the slot facing up. Set the sight upside down on the block and then put the slide upside down on top of the sight (I put masking tape on the slide to prevent scratching it). Hold everything in position while you clamp the vise onto the slide. Now you can use whatever staking tool you like, along with your favorite flavor of loctite, to swage the tenon.

[David Rose]

Yep, the Trijicons with shoulders are easy! Just support the shoulders and stay away from the top. It's these sights that customers get "somewhere" that appear to be ordinary stake-on sights with the insert... I've turned down some of those.

What I've gotten away with on these is simply a section of 1" square aluminum about 4" long that I clamp in the floor vice. It has a slot milled longitudinally on both ends for different thickness blades. The aluminum cushions the blows somewhat. So there is temptation to strike more firmly. With the bottom of the slot in the slide opened a little along the edges, I just slowly tap the tang metal until it flows into those recesses. Repeated light blows will eventually get it there. And hopefully, the vial is still full! :scared: So far, it has worked.

David

[gfavaron]

Now that's just disgusting! I considered Trijicons for one of my Commanders, and was scared off after reading the blurb in Brownells about needing special tools. Oh well, it was probably for the best. About the only event that draws me out after dark anymore is something stirring up the horses out around the barn - or the dog on the patio - and that is shotgun time, not pistol time.

[Dave Berryhill]

...It's these sights that customers get "somewhere" that appear to be ordinary stake-on sights with the insert... I've turned down some of those....
Make sure you get paid up front - with cash - before doing the installation! For all the trouble, I still prefer to install a dovetail front sight. The skirt adds more mass to a tenon sight.

[David Rose]

Dave, I've been putting on the work order something to the effect of... "customer has been notified that vial may break and is willing to take the chance". I agree about the dovetail sights. Even a loose or tight one beats any stake-on, if there is a choice. Millett dual crimps are/were a nice setup, but once you go that way, it is a chore to go to any other type. I wish I didn't have a whole bunch of those right now, even with a few customers loyal to that system.

David

Make sure you get paid up front - with cash - before doing the installation! For all the trouble, I still prefer to install a dovetail front sight. The skirt adds more mass to a tenon sight.