1911 slide lock problems...

[officer2312]

Hello, first post, but I've been reading for quite a while....
Gotta question for ya'll....
Bought myself a High Standard 1911...yeah, I know, but it was used and the price was right...and it's pretty danged tight and accurate for a cheap 1911, not to mention my first single action autopistol...I've always owned one of those cursed plastic jobbers I hear everyone fuss about, so I dare not name it!

Anyway, I took the pistol to the range yesterday, and fed it all I could afford to buy at the time...100 rounds...quick and fast, figuring if I was going to get any failures, it would happen while doing so.
Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags, Wilson Combat shock buffer and 18 1/2 lbs recoil spring, Blazer brass 230gr. FMJ's....anyway, I got five or six "stoppages"...I use that term as opposed to "failures" because the problem was that the slide lock managed to just barely, and I mean BARELY catch on the slide lock notch. I swear, if I could have measured it, 1/10,000th of an inch would not have surprised me...it was REALLY close to missing.

So, anyway, I'm not quite sure where the problem is. If it had been a round sticking funny in the chamber or stove piping the empty, I would assume it would be too stiff a recoil spring...I dunno.
Perhaps it is still the problem...I was hoping one of ya'll could help me out...
Thanks!

[John]

First of all, loose that shock buffer. You do not need it.

Second, go get yourself a 16 lbs recoil spring. That's what the pistol was designed tor un with, you do not need the heavier one.

Also remove the slide and insert the slide stop in place, as it would be when the gun is fully assembled. Now insert a loaded magazine and note where the nose of the top round comes close to the slide stop shelf inside the mag well. Let's call this Area A. Remove the loaded magazine and insert an empty one. Notice the area of the slide stop shelf which gets engaged by the mag follower, let's call that Area B.

A little filing at Area A, without affecting Area B will solve your slide lock problem.

[David Rose]

John, I'm not exactly sure... are you saying to give a bit of clearance for the bullet to the stop? That is true if the bullet contacts the stop.

The three things John said are the first to do and check.

If there is clearance there, other things could be causing this from recoil. One could be a bad slide stop plunger spring or a worn slide stop follower. Those aren't as common (for me anyway) as a bad rear face on the stop itself. I've installed a lot of cheap SSs (in the past) and these often have poor rear faces. It should be fairly smooth and the top edge can be very slightly angled toward the muzzle. The idea is to have enough tension on the slide stop, when there is no pressure against it, to hold it down during recoil. Of course, you do not want enough tension to slow the stop's upward movement when the mag follower shelf snaps against it.

It is common, especially with an extended SS :nono: , to need a slight horizontal groove right where the follower engages the SS when it is down.

David

[Sniper350]

Well, here might be a good place to discuss what some are calling a band-aid, but for years I have been adding it to all my 1911's as an "enhancement" during combat type shooting. [ fast & full power loads ]

The problem is a simple one - the slide lock is grabbing the slide before the magazine is empty. The cause - may be several reasons: I will attempt to list a few --1. The plunger spring may be weak and need replacement -- a weak spring may not be putting enough pressure on the slide lock to keep it in place during violent recoil. 2. Some part of Your hand might be touching the Slide lock during the recoil phase - bumping it into action. 3. Out of spec ammo [ bullet not set deep enough ] & contacting the Slide lock during the feeding phase - John has covered this aspect nicely. 4. Extended Slide Stops - adds mass & weight to this part that is known to be adversely affected by strong recoil.

Now the enhancement - Wilson Combat and some others are offering this modification on their high-end Slide Stop part. They machine a detent into the face of the Slide stop so the plunger has a better ability to apply "resistance" to this part to keep it in place when needed. During combat shooting, you don't always get the perfect grip, so it is possible to barely touch the slide stop at the wrong moment. Also full power loads can add to the violence of the recoil and can sometimes shake the slide stop into engagement - if the plunger spring shows some weakness OR the slide stop is of the "Extended" type. CCI Blazer is known for loading their ammo at the upper end of the scale, even though it is a "practice round" so to speak.

All I do is mark the face of the slide stop with a black marking pen......... and after some use..... the wear marks will show you where the plunger is riding on the slide stop's surface. You can either file a "slight" channel at this point OR I use a small diamond ball bit and drill a small indent into the surface.
It is extremely important that you make this modification with great care -- in that a too DEEP indent will prevent the slide stop from working when it should. So go slow --- you can always go back and make the channel deeper, if needed. This band-aid has served me well for many years - I can fire full power self defense loads as fast as I can pull the trigger and have never suffered a "premature lock back".

This modification is not to help the properly functioning and properly held 1911 ............. but helps in those times when things are less than perfect.
I would FIRST replace your plunger spring in that 1911, before doing anything else. See if that fixes the problem.

JF.

[John]

Yeap, Sniper is right, that dimple can save you some trouble.

And while we are at slide stop modifications, here is one I first saw on my Talon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/Talon/Pict0077.jpg

That notch over there could have saved thousands of 1911 slides from the idiot scratch. Just put that notch on the slide stop plunger and push in. Not in and up, like you normally do with a typical slide stop (and it skips the disassembly notch and scratches your slide, just in). The slide stop pops in like a hot knife in butter!

[robot1911]

I think you guys are going at his problem in reverse. As I understand it, the slide stop is not rising high enough in the slide's notch. Usual cause...bad mag spring or bad follower. There are others, of course, the these two are the most common...and I don't care for those Shooting Star followers!

Bob

[John]

LoRL, it won't be the first time I took something wrong. Come on Officer2312, clear this mess for us!

[officer2312]

Sorry fellas, been at work all day...on lunch now.
Naw, the final shot lock is great, fits up there just like it should...but it occasionally catches just slightly at about mid-mag...three or four rounds into firing session.

I'll get more detailed when I get off work...ETA 2.5 hours...

[robot1911]

LoRL, it won't be the first time I took something wrong. Come on Officer2312, clear this mess for us!

Well, right or wrong John, you were still right.

Bob

[officer2312]

Hmmm...I'm not sure where to start...lemme just hit the first things that come to mind.
First, lemme say that while I am very well versed in many different firearms, long guns and handguns included, I am pretty clueless about the 1911. I've spent the last two weeks getting use to the function of the weapon...developing the habit of clicking on the safety, clicking it off when I am ready to shoot...learning to quickly field strip it without losing the recoil spring cap, learning how to completely disassemble it and watching the little parts and how the fit together and move against each other...starting to understand the thing now....anyway, ya'll've got (you like that? that's redneck for "you all have"...) a clean slate to work with, here...I have no opinions, habits, or beliefs concerning the 1911 that cannot be quickly and easily changed by simply telling I don't know what I am talking about, and that this is the right way...hehe....

John: I wasn't sure about the shock buffer, but I do still have the 16lbs spring. I bought the 18 1/2 lbs spring because I bought this pistol primarily for a sidearm during deer season. I use a 7mm mag, and I always carry a handgun as a secondary weapon...since I plan on busting deer with it, I bought myself some DoubleTap rounds that ought to do the job nicely. I figured it might be better to have a higher tention recoil spring. Also, I worry excessively, and I was somewhat worried about peening on the frame, so I put in the shock buffer.
Could the shock buffer or the heavier spring be causing the problem? That would be nice...easy to fix.

Sniper350: I've been thinking on your list of possible causes...which, for simplicity sake, I'll call 1, 2, 3, & 4. We can rule out #4, because I have the standard slide stop. I think we can rule out #2, as well, because, not trying to sound cocky, but I am pretty well versed in handgun firing, and that is the first thing that came into my mind...so I had a friend watch my hands carefully as I fired, and when the weapon locked again and came to rest, all my appendages were clear...and it also happened when I fired one handed.
Now, your #1, the weak plunger spring, was about the third thing that came into my mind...I just wasn't sure it was possible. That can be remedied quickly, if we decide it is the case.
#3, out of spec ammo, was the second. If I had been using a lick of common sense, I would have brought home at least one of the rounds that had been at the top of the magazine when it happened and measured it at home...but I didn't think about it hard enough, I guess. Rather dumb move on my part, now that I think about it.

David Rose & Sniper350: Thanks for the advice on the SS trick...that may be the exact thing I do. Gotta get some more ammo and check John's advice on checking the slide stop against a loaded magazine...perhaps the problem is that OOS ammo or two long a whatchamadingle where it connects to the slide stop shelf...I'll have to check. Of course, I ran myself completely out of ammo the other day, so I have to get more ammo, first....

I completely lost my train of thought just now, and since I've written quite a bit, I'm gonna stop here, and see what ya'll think...

[officer2312]

Ok...stripped the weapon, checked the slide lock...it has the groove cut into it from the factory, and there is an sound "click" the spring plunger falls into it. I don't know much of anything about 1911's, but it is beginning to look like a weak plunger spring to me.
Haven't yet removed the buffer or 18 1/2lbs recoil spring...waiting to hear thoughts on whether or not I should use it with the higher pressure loads.
For standard self defense loads, I don't think I will need it...looking pretty hard at Speer 200gr +p's for SD, but DoubleTap's version in 185 grains for hunting...it's pretty mean.

[John]

Which groove is cut from the factory??? And where is the spring plunger falling in?? When the slide stop in inserted in the gun, the plunger should press on its rear, vertical surface. It shouldn't be going in any groove.

The most probable cause for your problem is that the heavier recoil spring is causing movement of the rounds forward inside the magazine. When the round touches the internal area of the slide stop, it locks the slide back. Maybe your mag springs are weak, maybe the slide stop is a little oversized.

[SW1911SC]

Ok...stripped the weapon, checked the slide lock...it has the groove cut into it from the factory, and there is an sound "click" the spring plunger falls into it. I don't know much of anything about 1911's, but it is beginning to look like a weak plunger spring to me.
Haven't yet removed the buffer or 18 1/2lbs recoil spring...waiting to hear thoughts on whether or not I should use it with the higher pressure loads.
For standard self defense loads, I don't think I will need it...looking pretty hard at Speer 200gr +p's for SD, but DoubleTap's version in 185 grains for hunting...it's pretty mean.


Hold on now. You have been saying that you're having a problem
with the SLIDE LOCK.

Are you perhaps talking about the THUMB SAFETY? That's what it
sounds like to me.

Which part are you talking about, the red or blue one? Let's clear
this up first.

Red = the slide stop. Blue = thumb safety.

http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/f8f48d395814.jpg

[officer2312]

The groove...well, like Sniper350 said...

"... Wilson Combat and some others are offering this modification on their high-end Slide Stop part. They machine a detent into the face of the Slide stop so the plunger has a better ability to apply "resistance" to this part to keep it in place when needed...

...You can either file a "slight" channel at this point OR I use a small diamond ball bit and drill a small indent into the surface.
... This band-aid has served me well for many years - I can fire full power self defense loads as fast as I can pull the trigger and have never suffered a "premature lock back"...."

Whereas mine is more of the "slight channel" type than the small indent.

But since you said about the heavier recoil spring causing the rounds to slide a little forward causing the slide lock to catch on the projectile makes sense...and, forgive me for not being forward-thinking enough to have paid closer attention, but if memory serves, when the problem occurred, I am pretty sure the rounds looked a bit forward of what I felt should have been the proper position. And, since you mentioned it, I have three Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags and the one that came with the weapon, and though I'm not sure if it is made by Armscor, I'm sure there is someone on here that does...either way, the mag spring in the factory mag is considerably stiffer than the Chip McCormicks. The Chips fall out of the gun; the factory mag shoots out. And, no, I was not bright enough to pay attention to which mags the problem occurred with...when the problems began, I was intent on getting the last fifty rounds to ping that steel plate out at thirty five yards, and I was being somewhat distracted...
I bought the CM mags because I had heard good things about them, but, perhaps, I should have bought the Power Mags instead?

And, John, do you think the pistol will be all right with the standard recoil spring when using my high-pressure deer-killer loads?

Forgive me for sounding so lost on this issue...I've not had a problem with any of my firearms since I sold my Ruger P90 six years ago...one thing about the Plastic Fanstastic, is never jams!
I realize the 1911 is what it is, but i have no doubts that this pistol can be just has reliable as my G22, once I get the bugs worked out....

[officer2312]

Hold on now. You have been saying that you're having a problem
with the SLIDE LOCK.

Are you perhaps talking about the THUMB SAFETY? That's what it
sounds like to me.



Negative...Slide Lock...or Slide Release, whichever you prefer...I prefer slide lock, as the slide must first be locked before it can be released...

Nope, I've become intimately familiar with the thumb safety...although I am ready for one with a somewhat wider gripping surface, as my thumb sometimes bounces off without disengaging it occasionally....when I practice. Been looking at an Ed Brown thumb safety, if anyone has any opinions....

[John]

If it is indeed the rounds that move forward and trip the slide release, then your mag springs are weak. We won't know for sure, until you figure out if the problem occurs with the Mc Cormick mags or with any mags, the mag spring, if weak allows the rounds to move forward. The heavy recoil spring increases the problem.

I can't tell if the standard spring will be OK with your reloads, I guess you won't be shooting too many of these, will you?

[officer2312]

I'll do my best to get to a range ASAP with some rounds and see if I can figure out the problem...it sure would be nice if it was just a mag spring problem....and thinking about it, I bet you're right...the only reason I have a mag spring problem is because I have a heavier recoil spring...

No, I won't be shooting those rounds often, but I will be practicing with them a bit, and the standard Speer +p's....I'm gonna just yank the danged spring and buffer, and maybe put the buffer back on when I shoot the heavy stuff, unless it feels like it needs the heavy spring...

[robot1911]

If you want to shoot those +P loads, I'd definitely use that 18 1/2# spring. Whenever one of my customers (mostly LEO's) do that and want a buffer (C-P's are the ultimate), I always clip 3 coils off the spring to make room for the buffer. "Solid" is not a good condition for a spring.

Bob

[officer2312]

I always clip 3 coils off the spring to make room for the buffer. "Solid" is not a good condition for a spring.

Bob



Really? Hmmm....
Ya know, this is what I'm diggin' about the 1911...I've spent so much time with my glocks, and makarovs, and so on and so forth, that I ain't found much of nothin new that I can learn about them. The 1911, however...everything I learn is something new. The mechanism amazes me...John Browning was a genius. Of course, that's well known. Then again, I also say the same thing about Makarov, and his creation.

[Ric4509]

Just to jump in and let everyone know that I also have a HS 1911 with the same issue. The cure is a Wilson Combat bulletproof slide stop.

[John]

+P loads will require the heavier spring. Your problem is more with the mags (Caution: I've been proven wrong before) than the recoil spring. It's just that the recoil spring is creating more momentum forward and allows the rounds to move a little, enough to trip the slide stop.

Did you check the clearance between the bullet nose and the inside area of the slide stop?

[officer2312]

I think it may be a combination of both factors...I just checked the clearance on my new Doubletap 185 grainers, and it sure looks REAL close...as a matter of fact, I would swear it is touching, but bouncing the mag in and out ought to make the slide lock move, and it doesn't, so it must just be REAL close. The shop is out of the cheap rounds I was using the other day...fortuantely, I have easy access to new slide stops, so I may try that out, too...and some Wolff extra power springs.

I'll give a full sitrep when I finally get the chance to shoot again...