Recoil assembly to replace factory in Colt OACP?

[elijdub]

Something i'm considering is replacing the factory recoil assembly in my new (to me) Colt Officer ACP with an aftermarket one. Can anyone recommend a brand from experience? I know Ed Brown's is a good one...so it Wilson's probably. I wonder if there's a smaller company (like King's, etc.) that i'm not aware of that may have benefits unfamiliar to me? For that matter, does anyone have a preference between the two big companies i mentioned.
Thank you!

[heat151]

I'm thinking of doing the same with my Springfield Micro-Compact (mil-spec per Springfield...it was bought used at a good price).
If anyone has a clue what can be done besides jsut swapping out the dual system for a new one, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

[Hawkmoon]

Something i'm considering is replacing the factory recoil assembly in my new (to me) Colt Officer ACP with an aftermarket one. Can anyone recommend a brand from experience?
What is it that you hope/expect to accomplish by this change? If it's only to address the difficulty of buying replacements for the original Colt dual springs, Wolff offers a single spring with a smaller end to fit the OEM Colt guide rod. Alternatively, you can buy a standard diameter guide rod for a Para-Ordnance P12.45 and use standard diameter springs listed for the P12.45 -- it's an Officers-length pistol.

And Para-Ordnance has a retrofit encapsulated spring assembly for use in their older P12.45 pistols. Since the old P12s were the same as Colt's Officers ACP in terms of slide and bushing, I believe the Para retrofit assembly would also work in a Colt Officers ACP.

Personally, I'd just buy the Wolff replacement spring with the reduced end for the OEM guide rod and shoot it.

[elijdub]

Personally, I'd just buy the Wolff replacement spring with the reduced end for the OEM guide rod and shoot it.
I think this is exactly what i'll do! This had been recommended to me but i was a little leary about using the Wolff single recoil spring that is as narrow as the OEM guide rod. Don't ask me why. I suppose if it can hold it's tension as long, and is equally as durable, then it'd be fine. I don't really see a reason to change guide rod, as this Colt is nearly new and i firmly believe in the quality of their parts.
To answer your question, i was trying to avoid having to use the single spring b/c of my concern over it's width (and my perceived lack of it's strength/longevity). I don't think that's an issue though.
While we're on the topic though, is there any reason to replace the guide rod or plug? It's so often on the list of mods during a Custom job. Is the idea that the aftermarket parts are somehow more durable than Colt's (or another manufacturer)? Just curious?
Thanks.

[elijdub]

I'm thinking of doing the same with my Springfield Micro-Compact (mil-spec per Springfield...it was bought used at a good price).
If anyone has a clue what can be done besides jsut swapping out the dual system for a new one, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!
heat151,
It sounds like we're in the same boat. I'd imagine Wolff makes a single-spring that fits the guide rod. Curious...doesn't that have a (3") FLGR? Interesting that it has two springs with that set-up... I don't know the diameter but i'm sure a call to Wolff could figure it out.

[OD*]

I use a Wolff single spring in my OACP, it works great.
http://gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/Colt.html#Officers

[Dave Berryhill]

As I mentioned to elijdub in response to an email that he sent me, the problem with most recoil springs for the OACP is their short life. There are a number of aftermarket options available, depending on whether you want to stay with the factory guide rod and spring plug or go with a full length guide rod and reverse plug but the springs still take a beating and tend to need frequent replacement.

I haven't had a chance to try one yet but I've heard good things about the flat spring that ISMI makes for the OACP. The springs are supposed to last for thousands of rounds When I get my hands on an Officers ACP to play with I plan on giving the ISMI spring a try.
http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

[elijdub]

There are a number of aftermarket options available, depending on whether you want to stay with the factory guide rod and spring plug or go with a full length guide rod and reverse plug but the springs still take a beating and tend to need frequent replacement.
Dave, thanks again for the advice earlier. Question: Do you think there's an advantage to switching to a FLGR? I'm personally more familiar with this set-up, having owned more smaller-framed 1911's than full-size, and as such, like the idea of switching. On the other hand, i do think Colt makes great factory parts (with the little experience i have with them). I'd just like to know if OACP's can be made more reliable or accurate, or the lifespan of their recoil assembly/recoil spring can be made to last significantly longer by using a FLGR and reverse plug. If the answer is no, i think i'll try a Wolff or ISMI single-spring set-up.
Thanks!

[watchin]

I have an OACP and I did replace the stock recoil system. The original barrel bushing is paper thin and has very little substance. I went with an EGW melt bushing and while I was spending the time and money fitting it I decided that I did not like the recoil spring plug due to the fact it relies solely on a small tab that fits into a notch on the bottom of the frame. Brown makes an OACP recoil plug that has a nice beefy collar that gives it support all the way around. BTW, I had already switched over to Wolff's single recoil spring.
It works like a charm, looks like a conservatively modified Colt OACP and with the exception of the bushing, all the parts are truely drop in.
I am very impressed with the EGW melt bushing made for the Colt OACP. It has a lot of contact with the inside of the slide and a lot of contact with the outside of the barrel, unlike the stock bushing. The shot grouping validates the additional accuracy this adds to the pistol.
-watchin-

[Dave Berryhill]

On a full-size 1911 I usually don't use a FLGR unless it's a comp gun and I want the extra weight. In the case of the ISMI flat spring for the OACP, I don't know how well it will work without one.

I agree with watchin about the stock spring plug made by Colt. They have been known to fail and if it were a self defense pistol, I would sleep better at night if I replaced it with one of the several aftermarket parts that are available whether it used a FLGR or not.

[elijdub]

I have an OACP and I did replace the stock recoil system. The original barrel bushing is paper thin and has very little substance. I went with an EGW melt bushing and while I was spending the time and money fitting it I decided that I did not like the recoil spring plug due to the fact it relies solely on a small tab that fits into a notch on the bottom of the frame. Brown makes an OACP recoil plug that has a nice beefy collar that gives it support all the way around. BTW, I had already switched over to Wolff's single recoil spring.
It works like a charm, looks like a conservatively modified Colt OACP and with the exception of the bushing, all the parts are truely drop in.
I am very impressed with the EGW melt bushing made for the Colt OACP. It has a lot of contact with the inside of the slide and a lot of contact with the outside of the barrel, unlike the stock bushing. The shot grouping validates the additional accuracy this adds to the pistol.
-watchin-
watchin, I have a few questions for you (if you don't mind). I've noticed how thin the Colt bushing is, AND how little contact it has with the barrel and slide. I really like the idea of the EGW.
I'm curious how much/what kind of work you had to do to the EGW bushing to make it fit?
Did you go with an EB guide rod too (non-FLGR, right?)?
The EB plug....do I understand that it does away with the "slot-head" removal? Is it then held in place like a standard 5" recoil plug?
Thank you.
BTW, i'd really like to see some pics of your gun. Do you have any posted anywhere?

[elijdub]

In the case of the ISMI flat spring for the OACP, I don't know how well it will work without one.

I agree with watchin about the stock spring plug made by Colt. They have been known to fail and if it were a self defense pistol, I would sleep better at night if I replaced it with one of the several aftermarket parts that are available whether it used a FLGR or not.
I see what you mean now about the ISMI, both in terms of it's quality and how it's marketed with the FLGR. I hadn't had a chance to look at it until now. It's impressive. Their warranty alone: "ISMI offers their Officers Recoil Control System with a lifetime warranty on all components - including failure due to wear.
The only concern i have is that they say it requires *minor* modification to the slide. Do you know what that would be? Maybe a call to them is in order.

[elijdub]

Brown makes an OACP recoil plug that has a nice beefy collar that gives it support all the way around.
Is this the one you mean?

http://www.edbrown.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00767.1.614519246910758650
"883-OF Reverse Plug for Officers Model"

Thanks.

[paul45]

This had been recommended to me but i was a little leary about using the Wolff single recoil spring that is as narrow as the OEM guide rod.Only at the the end to fit the factory guide rod......

I know Ed Brown's is a good one...so it Wilson's probably.I use a Wilson's on one of my Officers, and it works fine.......but.....2 thoughts.....1) Wilson recommmends replacing the spring every 300 rounds......2) The Officers I installed the Wilson system in, is my "beater" fun Colt to hammer, file, sand change parts on. I will not permanently change the slide on another one.....especially yours which is original and has the box, etc.

Everyone talks about how weak the factory reverse plug is. I think there is a whole lot of errornet rumor to that. Let's hear about all those Officers that have the reverse plug tear apart......I never had one do it to me, never witnessed one. Let's hear all those horror stories. Something like all those cracked frame Delta Elites floating around out there......just more errornet hogwash.....

[OD*]

Something like all those cracked frame Delta Elites floating around out there......just more errornet hogwash.....
There must have been something to it, Colt wouldn't have started removing part of the frame rail for no reason.

[Hawkmoon]

heat151,
It sounds like we're in the same boat. I'd imagine Wolff makes a single-spring that fits the guide rod. Curious...doesn't that have a (3") FLGR? Interesting that it has two springs with that set-up... I don't know the diameter but i'm sure a call to Wolff could figure it out.
Wolff has figured it out.

The Colt Officers ACP uses a dual recoil spring. The outer spring is standard diameter, the inner spring is small enough to fit inside that, so the shaft of the recoil spring guide has to be small enough to fit inside that smaller spring. The standard guide rod is 0.330" diameter. I don't recall what the smaller Officers guide rod is. Para's older P12.45 was set up with the same recoil spring plug and Officer's style barrel bushing as a Colt Officers ACP, but Para used a standard diameter guide rod and a single recoil spring.

The Wolff spring to fit the Colt guide rod is #42322. The number to fit the Para guide rod (or any cut-down standard guide rod, or a full-length guide rod) is #49022.

[Dave Berryhill]

....The only concern i have is that they say it requires *minor* modification to the slide. Do you know what that would be? Maybe a call to them is in order.
The reverse plug has a flange or shoulder on it that keeps it in the slide. Typically you need to remove some metal from the rear of the slide's spring tunnel. It can be done with a file or a milling machine.

...Everyone talks about how weak the factory reverse plug is. I think there is a whole lot of errornet rumor to that. Let's hear about all those Officers that have the reverse plug tear apart......I never had one do it to me, never witnessed one. Let's hear all those horror stories. Something like all those cracked frame Delta Elites floating around out there......just more errornet hogwash.....
I don't know what percentage of them fail but I've had a couple come into the shop. Usually the owner brings in the pistol with the recoil springs and the spring plug missing and tells you that the parts just disappeared while the pistol was being shot.

Notice that what I said earlier about replacing the spring plug was for a self-defense pistol. My objective in building those types of pistols is to increase reliability as much as possible and even if the failure rate of the factory spring plug is low (I have no idea what the real failure rate is), it's a relatively simple and inexpensive upgrade to eliminate that potential problem. Mr. Murphy does his best to interfere with gunfights and part of my job is to keep him on the sidelines.

And yes, frame rails crack right above the window where the lug of the slide stop goes into the frame due to the sharp corner there. And not just Deltas but other calibers as well including .45's. It doesn't destroy the frame. You just remove the section of the rail above the window.

[Hawkmoon]

Everyone talks about how weak the factory reverse plug is. I think there is a whole lot of errornet rumor to that. Let's hear about all those Officers that have the reverse plug tear apart......I never had one do it to me, never witnessed one. Let's hear all those horror stories. Something like all those cracked frame Delta Elites floating around out there......just more errornet hogwash.....
My Jeeper/1911 pal recently e-mailed me about his Mark IV Officers ACP. He had a massive failure -- the front leg on the ejector cracked and he had to replace the ejector. He was mumbling something about lousy Colt quality because the part failed after only 80,000 or 100,000 rounds. (Did I mention that he hand loads, and he tends to like loads sort of on the hot side of "max"?)

Curiously enough, he has not managed to launch the recoil spring plug downrange after all that number of rounds. I'll have to chastise him for not admitting to it, I guess, since we all know it MUST have happened three or four times by now.

[Hawkmoon]

Notice that what I said earlier about replacing the spring plug was for a self-defense pistol. My objective in building those types of pistols is to increase reliability as much as possible and even if the failure rate of the factory spring plug is low (I have no idea what the real failure rate is), it's a relatively simple and inexpensive upgrade to eliminate that potential problem. Mr. Murphy does his best to interfere with gunfights and part of my job is to keep him on the sidelines.
Dave (and Tuner, if you're reading this), I am certainly 100% in favor of reliability. My problem is that I am also a bit of a purist in terms of keeping a pistol (especially a Colt, I'm not so proprietary about most other brands) either all original or, if not original, at least making only mods that are truly drop-in so the pistol can be returned to factory configuration at any time. The Officers reverse recoil spring plugs require chopping the slide dust cover, which is a modification not easily reversed. For me, then, it's not an option.

Can anyone explain why the Officers uses that recoil spring setup, with the tab, rather than the type used on the Government and Commander models? Could a quality Commander barrel bushing and recoil spring plug simply be shortened and used in an Officers pistol? It seems like such a logical thing to do that I'm sure I'm missing something, but I obviously haven't a clue what.

[Dave Berryhill]

....Curiously enough, he has not managed to launch the recoil spring plug downrange after all that number of rounds. I'll have to chastise him for not admitting to it, I guess, since we all know it MUST have happened three or four times by now.
Not true. If a certain part has a 25% failure rate (I'm using a random number for the sake of example), it does not mean that your part is going to fail 25% of the time. Some break and some don't.

I have no idea why Colt went with that recoil system. At they time, Seecamp still had a patent on the dual spring recoil system that is used on the Defender and other short pistols. If Colt had to design the OACP today, my guess is that they would use that recoil system.

Off the top of my head, it sounds like your idea of modifying a Commander bushing and spring plug would work but I don't have an OACP here to look at.

[elijdub]

Only at the the end to fit the factory guide rod......

I use a Wilson's on one of my Officers, and it works fine.......but.....2 thoughts.....1) Wilson recommmends replacing the spring every 300 rounds......2) The Officers I installed the Wilson system in, is my "beater" fun Colt to hammer, file, sand change parts on. I will not permanently change the slide on another one.....especially yours which is original and has the box, etc.
Thanks for the advice Paul. I agree with you and Hawkmoon about not altering the gun (especially since it's original, etc.), and instead i'll try to choose a recoil assembly that will trully drop-in.
On a "beater" (or my second OACP) i'd love to try out the ISMI set-up that Dave proposed. It's a great looking assembly, and from what they say, will stand up to thousands and thousands of rounds! Very cool!
With regards to the Wolff spring (which i ordered on your advice...thanks!), is it the same width across it's entire length?...or does it taper to fit on the OEM guide rod at the end?

HERE are my questions:
1) Is there a way i can install a FLGR....OR...
2) An aftermarket, standard-sized, guide-rod and plug (with the Wolff spring)
....for increased reliability, that is a true drop-in part and requires no fitting at all? If not, i think i'll stay with the stock Colt components and just simply install a Wolff spring.
Furthermore:
3) Can i replace the stock bushing with an aftermarket one that fits a little tighter, like an EGW, (during the course of changing out the recoil assembly) that will not require fitting at all?
4)..And, if i do not change out the recoil assembly (sticking with the stock guide-rod and plug), can i still do the same, installing an aftermarket bushing that requires no fitting?

Whew! I know this is a lot. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I'm learning as i go here friends....

[watchin]

I didn't want to modify my Officers Model so it could not be turned back into it's original configuration either. I did not go with an FLGR but instead stayed with the factory guide rod. This allows you to keep from gouging out any material from the slide. I hand fitted the EGW Officers Melt Bushing. I did it with abrasive paper and files since it was very close to the dimensions required. It is very tight and needs EGWs special bushing wrench to remove it. One could make it sloppier so you could just use your hands but then you defeat the purpose of a tight bushing.
The recoil plug does not come out through the muzzle end of the pistol now. It has to be removed after takedown. It is held captive by it's sturdy internal collar.
I do not have a good close up picture handy but I do have a picture that is from another OACP using the same bushing and recoil plug. The one in the picture is an in work picture and has not been refinished.
The Bushing is EGW and the Recoil plug is EB. The dual springs are replaced by a Wolff spring made for the OACP. All these parts are available online.
It is obvious that the stock bushing and recoil plug are weak links in the system. It may sound rash but when you look at them the first thing you think is 'How long will that hold up?' I guess if you don't really shoot the gun it might be fine. I put a lot of rounds through mine, however.
Here is a link to a picture of how it looks. (Xavierbreath's pic of same setup).
http://www.geocities.com/xavierbreath2/ColtOMEGWbushing.jpg

[Dave Berryhill]

That's a nice setup. I looked on Ed Brown's website and couldn't find that reverse plug - only one that is drilled for a FLGR.

[watchin]

Good catch, Dave. I am so sorry. That is a Clark Custom recoil plug. Sunday morning fog is what I will attribute that error to.
Part #CLK-208-OM

-watchin-

[elijdub]

I hand fitted the EGW Officers Melt Bushing. I did it with abrasive paper and files since it was very close to the dimensions required. It is very tight and needs EGWs special bushing wrench to remove it.
The recoil plug does not come out through the muzzle end of the pistol now. It has to be removed after takedown. It is held captive by it's sturdy internal collar.
I do not have a good close up picture handy but I do have a picture that is from another OACP using the same bushing and recoil plug. The one in the picture is an in work picture and has not been refinished.
The Bushing is EGW and the Recoil plug is EB. The dual springs are replaced by a Wolff spring made for the OACP. All these parts are available online.
It is obvious that the stock bushing and recoil plug are weak links in the system. It may sound rash but when you look at them the first thing you think is 'How long will that hold up?' I guess if you don't really shoot the gun it might be fine. I put a lot of rounds through mine, however.
Here is a link to a picture of how it looks. (Xavierbreath's pic of same setup).
http://www.geocities.com/xavierbreath2/ColtOMEGWbushing.jpg
Great info watchin...thanks! That is a very nice looking set-up. I'm goina' check that out right now!

So i take it there is no way to install a FLGR without modifying the gun? Does that encompass ALL makers (or the big-names anyway?)?

Thanks!

[elijdub]

watchin
I can't determine which EGW bushing fits the Officers model. Do you know which part number it is?
Thanks

[Dave Berryhill]

Watchin - does that Clark spring plug drop in without any modification to the slide?

Eli - EGW may not have their OACP bushing listed on their website. Give them a call.

[elijdub]

Good catch, Dave. I am so sorry. That is a Clark Custom recoil plug. Sunday morning fog is what I will attribute that error to.
Part #CLK-208-OM

-watchin-
So, although Xavierbreath's plug is a Clark, is that what you used, or did you use an EB? I'm also curious which one required no fitting...

[watchin]

The parts that I used for the modified OACP recoil system:

Wolff Recoil Spring - Stock # 42322 (22lb. for factory recoil guide)
Clark's Drop-In (Officer's Model Plug) - Stock # CLK-208-OM
EGW Officer's Melt Bushing (blue) - Brownell's Stock #296-012-103

I ordered the barrel bushing from Brownell's catalogue because I didn't see it listed on EGWs website. The part they sent me was contoured differently than the actual part that EGW sells for the OACP and I emailed EGW with an outline of the part. They graciously offered to send me a bushing that would be a better fit. I notified them that I had already done the fitting, but was concerned about it's function. I took it to the range and it functioned flawlessly. I then noticed a thread that had a reference to xavierbreath's use of the Clark recoil plug so I ordered it and it dropped right in. More range testing followed, 100% reliability and, together, greatly improved accuracy (I was just testing for functionality the first trip). Finally, I ordered the replacement spring from Wolff and they sent me an increased power firing pin spring along with the single recoil spring. I didn't use the heavy duty firing pin spring since I have no problems with the original weight spring (which is also a Wolff spring of stock specifications).
The barrel bushing is the only part that requires any fitting whatsoever. Mine probably required more than one I would have received directly from EGW.
Due to the contour of the bushing it requires their special bushing wrench.
I know of no FLRG for the Colt OACP that doesn't require modification of the slide. I have noticed that mods to a Colt actually depreciate the value to most buyers (because they are leary of it's quality). All the modifications to my OACP were made to parts only, none to the actual gun. I have saved all factory parts.
I hope this helps.
-watchin-

[elijdub]

The parts that I used for the modified OACP recoil system:

Wolff Recoil Spring - Stock # 42322 (22lb. for factory recoil guide)
Clark's Drop-In (Officer's Model Plug) - Stock # CLK-208-OM
EGW Officer's Melt Bushing (blue) - Brownell's Stock #296-012-103
Thanks! This is exactly what i wanted to know. Very helpful....now i'm going to do the very same thing :o !

I know of no FLRG for the Colt OACP that doesn't require modification of the slide. I have noticed that mods to a Colt actually depreciate the value to most buyers (because they are leary of it's quality). All the modifications to my OACP were made to parts only, none to the actual gun. I have saved all factory parts.
I've noticed the same thing, with Colt's losing value with mods. I plan on buying another "beater" OACP that i can use to "tinker" with....that one might get a FLGR and a few other mods. My current OACP, being in near-new condition with box and papers, will get the "drop-in" treatment only.
Thanks again watchin.

[George Smith]

Timley post,

Hi Dave,

I have had over 7 reverse plugs in my hands that have failed in officers and p-12 guns. I too would not trust the stock set up.

Our bushings are available as a carry bevel or a Melt.
the stock slide cut out (except the over size sight stake that sometimes migrates into the opening) are usually .763-4 Stock bushings are .760 OD.
the ID on stock is .700 ish also. We make our ID .696 so you pick up .004 per side on wall thickness. the thick flange bolsters the entire deal, the tool we do the grove with has a corner radius too.

Many Reverse plugs fail regardless of size because the spring stacks and the full force of recoil is on the plug. this will kill any reverse plug over time.

We offer the Collar style plug, the back collar is and remains full circle after instlation. The collar is .530 diameter so it is thick enough to live long.

We came out with a new plug recently, Jeff thought of it. it is a combo of a collar reverse plug and a Hat plug. You machine your slide that was cut for the failure prone (the corners are stress risers and crack, or the flange cracks off, or they turn in the gun and one side or the other gets swaged and they fail) Hat style plug and cut it for a collar style too.
the plug flange when installed remails the .530 circle and will hold up far better.

The flat Glock springs are the BOMB for the Officers and 4" guns.
ISMI springs are the deal. He makes different weight springs too.
We make a 1/4" guide rod system or you can use a short GI type spring plug, 1/4" of course and short to insure the guide does not contact the reverse plug.

Just the Feel of the Flat spring inspires confidence in an Officers size gun.
We have installed quite a few and we have Never replaced a spring.

The flat spring is the deal, the round spring can not match it. often guys come in with officers that if you had to shoot up hill the slide would not make it into battery, they are that bad.

Hope this helps.
geo

www.egw-guns.com

ps
we try to keep the site current but we seem to come out with a part a week and it is hard to keep up. If you read about a part on a forum usually it is true. Feel free to call. Anyone familiar with Reverse plugs can install either style.

[heat151]

What solutions do you have for a Springfield 3" mil-spec/micro-compact?
The flange on the original broke-off, and it was simply replaced with a new one. I'm interested in options to the dual-spring FLGR.

Mahalo.

[Dave Berryhill]

Brother George! Thanks for the input.

George was the guy who turned me on to the flat wire spring for the OACP.

[Hawkmoon]

Can anyone explain why the Officers uses that recoil spring setup, with the tab, rather than the type used on the Government and Commander models? Could a quality Commander barrel bushing and recoil spring plug simply be shortened and used in an Officers pistol? It seems like such a logical thing to do that I'm sure I'm missing something, but I obviously haven't a clue what.
I got a clue.

I took a look at my 12.45 LDA. I had forgotten that the short barrels result in a larger included angle when the barrel unlocks and swings on the link. So they use a cone-shaped bull(-like) barrel. The ID of the barrel bushing is significantly larger than that of a stock Combat Commander. It would not be possible to exchange the bushings without making other changes.

[George Smith]

What solutions do you have for a Springfield 3" mil-spec/micro-compact?
The flange on the original broke-off, and it was simply replaced with a new one. I'm interested in options to the dual-spring FLGR.

Mahalo.

I have a big fat goose egg :)
Nothing.
It is too short for a single spring, we looked at it but aside from the double spring system we saw no solution.

We make the guide rods in house and we make the reverse plugs, if you have an idea for this gun let us know and we can make the parts to do it.

The really thin flange on the stock guide rod does not instill confidence either.

geo

www.egw-guns.com

[Farnorth]

I ordered both the barrel bushing and spring plug from Clark for my Officers ACP. I fitted the bushing with no problem but when I installed the plug, the slide would not cycle all the way. The collar on the plug is too thick for a drop in on my gun. I guess I would have to either file the collar down or cut the slide a bit to accomodate the new bushing. As I really don't want to cut the slide, it's either trim the collar or stay with the original plug, of which I also have an extra. When I bought the plug it was twenty dollars so I guess I'm not too afraid to do a little modifying on it to see how it would work. Just have to figure out how much to cut off and still have the plugs integrity in tact. Another winters project in the dark north, eh? ;) Greg

[elijdub]

George,
Thank you for the post. That's a lot of great info! It's quite a benefit to have Industry reps "at hand" ;)!
I have a few questions:
Our bushings are available as a carry bevel or a Melt.
the stock slide cut out (except the over size sight stake that sometimes migrates into the opening) are usually .763-4 Stock bushings are .760 OD.
the ID on stock is .700 ish also. We make our ID .696 so you pick up .004 per side on wall thickness. the thick flange bolsters the entire deal, the tool we do the grove with has a corner radius too.
1) When fitting the EGW Melt bushing (that i ordered this a.m. from Aman) do you sand/file the outer diameter AND the interior diameter (i.e., the OD that fits the slide?; the ID that fits the barrel?)? Will one of your measurements be closer than the other, requiring that only the ID (that fits the barrel) has to fitted?
Many Reverse plugs fail regardless of size because the spring stacks and the full force of recoil is on the plug. this will kill any reverse plug over time.

We offer the Collar style plug, the back collar is and remains full circle after instlation. The collar is .530 diameter so it is thick enough to live long.
2)-a) What is the relationship of the recoil spring to the Collar style plug that allows it to last longer (and not absorb the full force of the recoil?)? What is it's benefit over a Reverse plug?
-b) You do offer a Collar style for the OACP?
-c) How much/what kind of fitting does it require...and does it require any slide-modification?
The flat Glock springs are the BOMB for the Officers and 4" guns.
ISMI springs are the deal. He makes different weight springs too.
We make a 1/4" guide rod system or you can use a short GI type spring plug, 1/4" of course and short to insure the guide does not contact the reverse plug.
3)-a) Does ISMI make Glock's springs?...are they the same? If not, do you prefer one more than the other for the OACP?
-b) Your 1/4" guide rod system: This is a non-FLGR, right? Is this a drop-in part?

That's a lot of questions :o.
Thanks!

[elijdub]

I ordered both the barrel bushing and spring plug from Clark for my Officers ACP. I fitted the bushing with no problem but when I installed the plug, the slide would not cycle all the way. The collar on the plug is too thick for a drop in on my gun. I guess I would have to either file the collar down or cut the slide a bit to accomodate the new bushing. As I really don't want to cut the slide, it's either trim the collar or stay with the original plug, of which I also have an extra. When I bought the plug it was twenty dollars so I guess I'm not too afraid to do a little modifying on it to see how it would work. Just have to figure out how much to cut off and still have the plugs integrity in tact. Another winters project in the dark north, eh? ;) Greg
I'd play around with the plug (not wanting to alter my OACP either). I'm really curious about this too b/c i just ordered a reverse plug from Clark! I believe i recall other folks saying the Clark was drop-in. I suppose specs vary slightly from gun to gun though, huh?
This is what Xavierbreath had to say about the matter (in his work-over of an OACP):
"The stock parts seem to be a bit fragile......To remedy this, I ordered a reverse plug from Clark Custom. This plug has a rim all round the rear, and is quite substantial. I don't think it is going anywhere. I fitted it with a Wolff recoil spring. Both were drop in parts."
Worth reading if you haven't already!
http://www.geocities.com/xavierbreath2/ColtOfficersModel.html

[watchin]

The Clark recoil plug for the Colt OACP should (it did for me) just drop right in. If you find that it is too long in overall length (on the aft side) then a flat surface and some sanding will take it down evenly if you use a very flat surface, plate glass is good. Remember, however, that this is the extra material that gives the new recoil plug it's value. If you take it down too much you will eventually be back to the factory specs (no retaining rim at all). I agree with Eli, don't modify the slide, just the $20 part.
-watchin-

[Farnorth]

Watchin, as the pistol is in box stock condition, I will modify the Clark plug first. I don't know if I would really have a problem modifying the slide to fit it though. I've already promised the pistol to my grandson, and he's 12 now so I don't guess it's that's too far off. :D Just out of curosity I took some measurments of the plug I have. Would be interesting to compare some to see how uniform the pistols or plugs are for "drop in" compatibility. My plugs flange measures 0.076 thick, OAL is 0.861 and the tab and flange together measure 0.251 thick. Thanks, Greg

[4sfed]

Originally Posted by heat151
What solutions do you have for a Springfield 3" mil-spec/micro-compact?
The flange on the original broke-off, and it was simply replaced with a new one. I'm interested in options to the dual-spring FLGR.

Mahalo.

I have a big fat goose egg :)
Nothing.
It is too short for a single spring, we looked at it but aside from the double spring system we saw no solution.

geo


George,

Do you make anything for the Springfield Ultra Compact - 3 1/2" slide? I'm not wild about the threaded assembly of the dual-spring system.

Jim

[Hawkmoon]

For those seeking an alternative without modifying the slide, I have word from Para-Ordnance that their P12 retrofit recoil assembly "should" also work in a Colt Officers ACP. The gizmo you're looking for is Para-Ordnance P/N 0430019, and it should be available through Brownells. It is my understanding that this assembly fits the Officers (and original Para P12.45) slide without any mods to the slide, which is certainly attractive to me.

If you decide to check out Brownells, please remember to access their web site through the sponsor banner at the top of your forum screen. [/shameless plug]

[elijdub]

For those seeking an alternative without modifying the slide, I have word from Para-Ordnance that their P12 retrofit recoil assembly "should" also work in a Colt Officers ACP. The gizmo you're looking for is Para-Ordnance P/N 0430019, and it should be available through Brownells. It is my understanding that this assembly fits the Officers (and original Para P12.45) slide without any mods to the slide, which is certainly attractive to me.
Hawkmoon,
The part they offer...are you referring to a FLGR and reverse plug...or...a standard short guide rod and regular plug?
Thanks
(i only ask because throughout this thread on a few instances we've discussed one of the downsides to a FLGR with the OACP is that the slide must be modified)

[watchin]

Farnorth (and others), the Clark 'CLARK'S DROP-IN, Officer Model Plug, Part #CLK-208-OM that I have installed (no mods) measures exactly:
Flange thickness 0.066
OAL 0.850
Tab and flange together 0.253

Since the tab and flange are the critical dimensions, I would say you are pretty close (which is excellent with hand grenades and horshoes). You think that your slide is not coming forward enough to actually cycle properly? The OAL of my Colt stock recoil plug is 0.798 and my Colt OACP functions flawlessly with either plug installed.
The problem you are experiencing could be due to a buildup of tolerances, but it seems to me that you aren't too far off on the thickness of the tab and flange. If I was sure that was the problem I would take the flange down in slow progressive steps (your are not looking at removing much material whatsoever) until the pistol cycles fully closed. Obviously you can see that there is some security to be had in the addition of the flange. Let us know.
-watchin-

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon,
The part they offer...are you referring to a FLGR and reverse plug...or...a standard short guide rod and regular plug?
Thanks
(i only ask because throughout this thread on a few instances we've discussed one of the downsides to a FLGR with the OACP is that the slide must be modified)
The original P12.45 and 12.45 LDA used a conventional setup just like the Colt Officers ACP, with a very stubby short guide rod, a cone barrel, and the same barrel bushing and recoil spring plug as the Colt Officers. The only difference was that Para used a standard diameter guide rod and a single spring. Para later (I don't know exactly when) changed to using a dual-spring, encapsulated recoil assembly, just like the ones you can see in my reviews of the Para Carry GAP, Slim Hawg, and Springfield EMP. On the newer pistols that come from the factory with the encapsulated recoil assembly, the slide is different from the older models, so you can't take the recoil assembly from the new pistols and drop it into one of the originals.

The part number I cited is for a different version of the encapsulated recoil assembly. Para apparently feels that this system is enough better than the original that they engineered a special version of it that does drop into the old style pistols without (supposedly ... I haven't tried it) modifying the slide. Since Para uses Colt blueprints for quality control standards (I think they are Colt; if not, they're Ordnance Department), if it fits the P12.45 it should also fit the Officers ACP.

[Farnorth]

Watchin, it seems the two plugs we have are pretty close in tolerences so something else is goin on with my pistol. When I had the original spring plug in and racked the slide all the way back, I marked the slide/frame position. I then installed the Clark spring plug and did the same thing. This time the slide is about .085 short of coming all the way back to the first mark. Thats quite a bit shorter stroke, especially considering that the flange is only .076 thick. The notch and the front of the flange fit perfectly against the dust cover of the slide. With the Clark plug in, when the gun was fired it would kick the slide stop up and lock open the slide with rounds still in the magazine. Didn't do that again :scared: . With the stock spring plug in the gun has operated flawlessly.
Hawkmoon: Thanks for the information and the heads-up on the Para part number. I'm going to order it and see if it solves my problem. Greg

[watchin]

Farnorth, from your previous post I thought your slide was not coming forward enough due to the thickness of the recoil spring plug collar. You are having the opposite problem. Your slide is not coming aft far enough to cycle.
Did the slide bottom out on the way back or did the recoil spring tension stop the slide's rearward movement? The flange or collar on the spring plug shouldn't be hitting anything on the way back..the only thing I can think of would be the guide rod hitting the inside of the spring plug. That would stop the slide from coming all the way back. One thing I did notice about the Clark recoil spring plug is that it has a pretty thick cap material. Hopefully this is not allowing your guide rod to bottom out on the rearward travel of the slide. Again, this is a 'beefy' plug and made to take a pounding (and I don't get any kick backs from Clark's).
If you are using the stock guide rod (short thin little guy) and stock spring assy then you may want to check your slide stop shaft. The only measurement we didnt compare is the depth of the spring hole in your Clark's recoil plug. I don't think that the collar thickness is the problem.
The Para part does not address the reliability factor of the recoil plug, but does sound interesting. I wonder how long before it needs to be replaced?
-watchin-

[LOBO]

Alot of good info here.

[Hawkmoon]

The Para part does not address the reliability factor of the recoil plug, but does sound interesting. I wonder how long before it needs to be replaced?
Yes it does -- it eliminates it completely.

This is a complete, encapsulated dual spring assembly that incorporates both springs, a skinny full-length guide rod, and an integral reverse plug in a single package. It should be replaced every 800 rounds.

[ronbo5151]

...... It should be replaced every 800 rounds.

Does the whole assembly need replacing or can you disassemble it and only replace the springs?

[watchin]

Hawkmoon, I must be looking at something different than what you are describing. I was looking at an assy that includes an inner and outer spring with a guide but I did not see a recoil plug. The one I saw was $84.97. This was supposed to be a retro-fit for a Para and/or Colt OfficerACP. Obviously, you would not replace a $100 part every time you shot less than a thousand rounds?
-watchin-

I agree with LOBO, this has been an interesting thread and a lot of info has been shared here. If it was not for this forum we would all be working in a vacuum and never sharing our experiences or ideas.

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon, I must be looking at something different than what you are describing. I was looking at an assy that includes an inner and outer spring with a guide but I did not see a recoil plug. The one I saw was $84.97. This was supposed to be a retro-fit for a Para and/or Colt OfficerACP. Obviously, you would not replace a $100 part every time you shot less than a thousand rounds?
I believe the Para part sells for about $30, and since I'm pretty certain Para-Ordnance doesn't market their recoil assemblies as retrofits for Colts (in fact, I want to make it clear that the Para factory was not willing to assure me it will even fit a Colt, but I'm pretty certain it will), it sounds like you were looking at an after-market part rather than the Para-Ordnance part for which I provided a number.

The Para part should look like the recoil assembly in the photos of the Para pistols we have tested for the e-zine. Looking at the photos, the reverse plug is a separate piece. It was my understanding (or perhaps "assumption" would be the better term) that the reverse plug was a part of the recoil assembly. That may not be correct, and I'll get back to the Para factory to see if a second part number is needed for the plug. (And also if the plug is the same for the new pistols so equipped and for the retrofit assemblies.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/POcarry9/smallimages/IMG_1139.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/POslimhawg/smallimages/101-0127_img.jpg

[LOBO]

I went to Brownells website and entered the posted part number (P/N 0430019). It brought up the Para-Ord part and I believe it was about $25.00

Chris

[Dave Berryhill]

On most of those Seecamp-design dual recoil spring systems, like the one shown in Hawkmoon's photos, the outer spring can be easily replaced. The smaller diameter inner spring is much more difficult since you need some means to compress and hold the spring while you remove a "C" clip, unscrew a retaining cap or whatever method is used to hold the spring captive.

You replace the larger spring at regular intervals, usually between 500 and 1,000 rounds, and only replace the smaller spring about once per year. Kimber suggests that you send the unit to them for inner spring replacement for their pistols that use them. They only charge a couple of bucks more than the cost of the spring to install a new spring for you. I don't know what Springfield Armory charges but they offer the same service for their pistols. The outer spring seems to take most of the abuse so it's far more important that you change that spring regularly.

Either that or figure out a way to change the inner spring yourself.

Personally, I don't buy guns for their collector's value. I shoot them and don't worry about their resale value. I also cut, file, drill and mill on them if it makes them shoot better. If it were mine I'd install one of the ISMI flat springs and a reverse plug (probably the EGW).

[Farnorth]

Farnorth, from your previous post I thought your slide was not coming forward enough due to the thickness of the recoil spring plug collar. You are having the opposite problem. Your slide is not coming aft far enough to cycle.
Did the slide bottom out on the way back or did the recoil spring tension stop the slide's rearward movement? The flange or collar on the spring plug shouldn't be hitting anything on the way back..the only thing I can think of would be the guide rod hitting the inside of the spring plug. That would stop the slide from coming all the way back. One thing I did notice about the Clark recoil spring plug is that it has a pretty thick cap material. Hopefully this is not allowing your guide rod to bottom out on the rearward travel of the slide. Again, this is a 'beefy' plug and made to take a pounding (and I don't get any kick backs from Clark's).
If you are using the stock guide rod (short thin little guy) and stock spring assy then you may want to check your slide stop shaft. The only measurement we didnt compare is the depth of the spring hole in your Clark's recoil plug. I don't think that the collar thickness is the problem.
The Para part does not address the reliability factor of the recoil plug, but does sound interesting. I wonder how long before it needs to be replaced?
-watchin-
I'm using the stock guide rod with the Wolf single spring setup. There are no marks on the spring plug or the guide rod to indicate they are interfering with each other. There are two small dots on the vertical face and the lower part of the frame where the barrel feet have been pushed back too far. I think this is happening because the Clark spring plugs flange is too thick and contacting the barrel in recoil. These dots occured when I had the Clark plug in. I'm thinking that by taking .010 off the flange or so it should be good to go. At least it would be a good starting place. I'm sorry for the poor explanations and for hijacking this thread. Hopefully the photos will help explain. As previously stated there is a lot of good information available from this thread and site. Thank you all, Greg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/jepinak/IMG_6910.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/jepinak/IMG_6892.jpg

[elijdub]

From Brownells:

RETRO RECOIL SPRING ASSEMBLY
Mfr: PARA-ORDNANCE
FITS: P12.45/.45LTD & P14.40 - Common Parts; C7.45LDA, .45
Catalog page 446
Stock Number / Desc
Price $26.79
199-000-356
Retro Recoil Spring Assembly

Sounds very interesting. I like the idea of not having to do any mods to the slide (assuming that's the case...looking forward to hearing what Para has to say!) as this is my ONLY OACP. When i'm able to buy another, i'll look forward to "tinkering" with it. Personally, i'm just not confident enought yet with minor gunsmithing tasks to be able to do any mods to the slide (like those required to install some of the FLGR's, etc.).

I recieved my EGW Melt Bushing, and Clark Reverse Plug, today. I'll post results and pics when i've fitted the bushing.


The smaller diameter inner spring is much more difficult since you need some means to compress and hold the spring while you remove a "C" clip, unscrew a retaining cap or whatever method is used to hold the spring captive.
I don't see any retention device on my OACP...i hope i'm not missing something. I assume the inner spring in this case just slides off...?

[watchin]

Hawkmoon, great pictures! I would say that yes, that would work with a Colt OACP (or I could make it work). I was looking at an enclosed assembly that held the spring and guide inside. If those springs are available then I don't see why they can't be replaced (as Dave suggests). I might have to try something like that in a different OACP.
The single spring from Wolff is pretty appealing to me right now but if it wears too quickly ( I only have about 600rds on it) then I might think about a different setup to try. It certainly is good to see all the options.

Dave, you are right. Obtaining the springs would be the trickiest part of replacing them. I also agree that the large spring is probably the one to keep an eye on.

Farnorth, Thanks for the pics. I have not seen anything like that on my OACP with the Clark's plug but very interesting. I would try just what you suggested. That will tell you really quick if the plug flange is a problem or not.

We are all getting a lot of info on the Colt OACP recoil system here. Now where was all this info when I was trying to make a decision about modifications to my OACP? I guess I just wasn't asking the right questions. As far as cutting, sanding, milling or drilling into frames and slides..I don't have that much of a problem if it isn't a Colt. That's why there are other manufacturers out there. Just kidding. I am sure there are some fine, er, Rugers out there. :)

[elijdub]

watchin,
Since i started this thread, i figure i can successfully "hijack" it (temporarily) :o. I'm trying to install my new Clark Plug (reverse)....i cannot figure out how to re-assemble the gun with a reverse spring. Can you tell me how to go about this? I don't understand how to install the recoil assembly with the spring (either the stock, double-spring, OR the Wolff single-spring...) under tension.
HELP!
Thanks.

[elijdub]

So, i'm trying to install a Clark reverse plug (which i mentioned above, i'm having a hard time with) and Wolff spring in my OACP. The stock small diameter (inner) spring fits very snuggly on the stock guide rod. When i place the Wolff single-spring on the guide rod it seems too loose....it slides off very easily. Is the Wolff spring insufficiently snug? I do have a good bit of oil on the gun, but still... it seems VERY loose!
Any thoughts?
(my final step after all this is complete will be to "fit" the EGW Melt bushing, and i think i'll be happy with a solid, unmodified-OACP, recoil assembly)

[Hawkmoon]

It appears that elijdub is up and running with the Clark plug and Wolff spring, so there's not much urgency in exploring other alternatives. I believe I have persuaded Para-Ordnance to send me one of their retrofit assemblies, so if/when it arrives I'll do a write-up on how it goes into a Para-Ordnance P12.45 and a Colt M1991A1 Compact (a.k.a. budget Officers ACP).

[elijdub]

I do have the Wolff spring and Clark plug installed (sorry for not posting that earlier). Thanks for all the help....this has been a very informative thread!

Hawkmoon, I'm really looking forward to seeing the write-up on the Para assemebly.

[elijdub]

I thought since this part was one we discussed, i'd post some pics of the Clark (reverse) Plug. I'm very impressed with it overall. It's flange is incredibly thick, as is the remainder of it's body. The aspect i like the most (besides it's cool look :cool: ) is how it has a rectangular shaped, raised piece that fits into the slot in the slide where the stock recoil spring had fit.
Showing the "rectangle piece":
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/003-2.jpg
How it fits in the slide:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/006-1.jpg
Another view:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/002-2.jpg
From the muzzle:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/001-2.jpg

Hope this is helpful...
Next i'll fit the EGW bushing....;).

[Hawkmoon]

That's a reverse plug, with a flange that extends the effective length of the slide dust cover/spring tunnel. That means the flange will reduce the distance that slide can move. That's the entire reason other reverse plugs require milling or filing material off the back of the dust cover -- to keep that dimension the same with the reverse plug as it was without.

I don't see how this reverse plug can work without modifying the slide. It looks to me like it's probably going to cause short cycles and possibly damage the gun if the slide dust cover isn't shortened by the thickness of the flange.

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with Clark's Custom Guns. They tell me that this part does, in fact, reduce slide travel. They say it only reduces travel by .080" and that this isn't enough to cause problems "if the gun is correctly sprung."

All I can say is that the flange appears to me, in the photos, to be significantly more than .080" thick. The folks at Clarks assure me that they sell a lot of this part and that "it just works," but they were not able to explain to me why it works, and for that reason I am not willing to entrust my unaltered Colt or Para-Ordnance to it. Maybe my engineering background is getting in the way, but if the best explanation you can give me is "It just works," that's not very reassuring.

[Dave Berryhill]

I guess it takes up a little bit of slide travel but not enough to affect function (?)

[Hawkmoon]

I guess it takes up a little bit of slide travel but not enough to affect function (?)
Well, I'd like to compare the thickness of the flange to the thickness of a shock buff. I know when I bought my Para P12.45 (used), it was initially characterized by a lot of bizarre functional issues. When I stripped it, I found a shock buff. Once I removed that, all the problems disappeared. The proper amount of slide travel is a lot more critical in a short pistol than it is in a Government model, or even a Commander.

[Dave Berryhill]

...The proper amount of slide travel is a lot more critical in a short pistol than it is in a Government model, or even a Commander.
Absolutely! That statement wasn't my opinion, it was my guess at what Clark's meant.

[elijdub]

Without taking a meaurement (as i'm short on time) the flange does appear to be more than .080". I'd say it's closer to 1/16. I'll take a better measurement later... but in the meantime, i'm defintely concerned. I certainly won't shoot it without further discussion.
I'm very curious to know what the potential negative ramifications could be of not having enough slide travel? My whole objective was to not alter the gun in any way, so milling (on this gun) is out of the question. If this doesn't work then i'm back to "square one" (maybe considering the Para alternative)...but for now i'm just curious if the plug is a "no no". I agree that Clark's "it just works" is not enough information! FWIW, "Xavier" used it (and it "dropped-in for him, so he says on his site)....
I'm going to try the masking tape/pencil mark-on-the-slide trick to really see how much it's impacting slide-play.

EDIT: Would you guys use this part (on an un-modified gun)?

[OD*]

I'm curious myself, I have one on the way and Clark says they're drop-in (but we know about "drop-in" parts).

[watchin]

Elijdub, I sent you a detailed PM. Just remember that you have to 'pre-assemble' the guide rod, spring and recoil plug onto the slide first. Since you don't have open access to this process after the slide is mounted you will have to do it as one assembly ( I had the same situation the first time). One of the things I found that helped me was that my factory guide rod had a super tight fit and I was able to reduce a little outside material edge margin with some abrasive paper (this part should drop all the way in by itself and not have to be forced in).
The Wolff spring should have one end smaller than the other and it should be sufficient to keep the spring lined up once it is all assembled. Mine doesn't grip the recoil rod but it is tight enough.
You will have to put the recoil guide onto the spring and put the other end of the spring into the recoil plug (after it is inserted into the slide). You will have to "bow" the spring and recoil guide out to secure the spring between the barrel lug and recoil spring plug. As you grasp the slide with your off hand (by wrapping your fingers around the spring it will pull the spring up against the underside of the barrel and compress it, allowing you to put the slide on the frame.
Push it back (it will be under tension) until you can line up the lug and the hole for the slide stop. Once you have that inserted you are home free.
If I could show you it would be easier than trying to explain it. I struggled with it a little at first. It is second nature now.

Anyone here with other tips on assembling a reverse plugged short slide Colt style pistol under spring tension?

Let us know how it goes. There are a lot of us here using reverse style recoil plugs and everyone probably has their own tricks.
-watchin-

[watchin]

The Clark's 'Drop In' recoil plug did drop in for me. It also has been working fine through over 500 rounds of full load factory ammo. I have made zero modifications to the slide or frame. When I first installed it I had a concern about it altering the already short slide cycle. I do have to say that I was pleasantly surprised to have it function so well with no other modifications.
Interestingly, when one dimension (or spring tension for that matter) is changed on the venerable Colt design it usually requires something else to be changed to compensate for it. I haven't found that to be the case with this recoil plug.
Eijdub, I am glad you got it all back together.
Again, my total modification to my Colt OACP is the EGW melt bushing, the Clark's 'drop in' recoil plug and the Wolff springs. One recoil spring and one reduced strength mainspring. All other parts are factory specs. It worked fine before the recoil mod and it works fine now (only it is more accurate).
The flange on my particular recoil plug (as it came from Clark's) is .066 thick.
BTW, I have no vested interest in suggesting this is the only way to go on a recoil modification for the Colt OACP. I also am interested in the Para-Ordnance part. I am looking for another Colt OACP so I am open minded to anything that works.
Currently I carry my Colt OACP so it is important that it has been range tested (maybe I need to put a few thousand more rounds through this setup just to be sure).
Clarks answer does surprise me (that's what I expect a receptionist to say..'We sell a lot of them and they just work'). I don't think that that is what the person who designed it would say. Now I am wondering how many they do sell? How long they last and how many people have found that they do "just work"?
-watchin-

[4sfed]

Anyone here with other tips on assembling a reverse plugged short slide Colt style pistol under spring tension?

Let us know how it goes. There are a lot of us here using reverse style recoil plugs and everyone probably has their own tricks.
-watchin-

From Hawkmoon's photos of the Para, it looks like the Springfield recoil spring assembly is the same. And since I haven't seen the Clark setup I'll describe how I disassemble my Springfield. They supply a "takedown piece" with their compact pistols that is supposed to take the tension off the recoil spring assembly so the slide stop can be easily removed. With an unloaded gun, the sequence is:
1) Lock the slide to the rear.
2) Snap the takedown piece on the exposed portion of the guide rod between the inner spring plug and guide rod cap.
3) Grasp slide, release slide lock and slowly allow the slide to go forward. Align disassembly notch on slide with stop. Remove the slide stop.

Unfortunately, there is still pressure on the recoil spring when the disassembly notch and slide stop are aligned because Springfield's takedown piece is too short. I made a longer one from black nylon, about 1.2 inches long, that compresses the recoil assembly enough that the slide stop can be removed without any pressure on it.

The first photo shows the takedown piece installed. Slide still locked to the rear.

In the last photo, the Springfield piece is front center and standing on end. The home made piece is left front.

http://www.autocomponenti.com/firearms/TakeDownPiece2726.jpg
http://www.autocomponenti.com/firearms/TakeDownPiece2728.jpg
http://www.autocomponenti.com/firearms/TakeDownPiece2730.jpg

[elijdub]

Elijdub, I sent you a detailed PM. Just remember that you have to 'pre-assemble' the guide rod, spring and recoil plug onto the slide first.
watchin
I received your PM....Thank you very much! I did just as you said, and finally figured it out late last night (with the help of Hawkmoon and some others). I struggled with the idea of having the spring installed with a "bow" in it; it just didn't look quite right. ...The most difficult part for me was getting the (stock) bushing in....having to hold the entire slide-and-assembly with one hand, while simultaneously pushing down on the reverse plug, AND "keying" in the bushing. I DID get it down pat though.
Thank you again for the PM and reply.

It is second nature now.
Side note: Interestingly, this is the name of the company i own ;).

[elijdub]

I'm curious myself, I have one on the way and Clark says they're drop-in (but we know about "drop-in" parts).
OD, My Clark plug did "drop-in"..as can be seen in the pics. My only question at this point is whether or not the slide travel will be adversly affected, and possibly negatively affect the gun (or worse).
I'm going to make a call to Clark's tomorrow and try to speak with one of their gunsmith's.

watchin, The fact that you've fired 500 rounds is promising... i'd really like to use this part. I don't have a way to take a very-small measurement, otherwise i'd do so with the flange.

As i engage the action of the slide, it seems to move as far back as it needs to (but i have no way to determine, other than by sight, if it's off by a fraction or not)... The gun feels like it's functioning fine.
EDIT:
O.K., i re-installed the stock plug. Upon engaging the action, the slide does move back further... With the stock plug installed, the slide-stop-notch in the slide passes the slide-stop (and the engagement "bump"..wrong termonology) entirely (and comes to rest meeting with foreward edge of the slide-stop notch lining up perfectly with the rear edge of the slide-stop engagement bump).
With the Clark plug now installed, the slide moves back only as far as, the foreward egde of slide-stop notch passes, then meets the middle of the slide-stop engagement bump. A difference of the width of the flange, i suppose. On my leatherman (a very rough measurement) the flange measures approx. 1.5mm
Hope this makes sense.

[auto45]

Just a question:

I've "watched" the Detonics video with their 3 1 /2" model and it looks pretty simple, in regards to take-down and reassembly. Basically, like "modern" guns.
Pull the slide back, take-out the slide stop, spring assembly comes out in one piece, then barrel...reassemble! :cool:

Anyone have one of these? Do they work?
Any reason why this "seemingly" simple system couldn't be used in the Officer type models with an "after-market kit"? Probably need a new barrel, so maybe too expensive.

For that matter, all those "hybrid" 3"-4" barreled guns without bushings that need "paper clips" or some "tools", etc.

Kits from EGW to solve these "pesky" systems. ;)

[4sfed]

Just a question:

I've "watched" the Detonics video with their 3 1 /2" model and it looks pretty simple, in regards to take-down and reassembly. Basically, like "modern" guns. Pull the slide back, take-out the slide stop, spring assembly comes out in one piece, then barrel...reassemble! :cool:

For that matter, all those "hybrid" 3"-4" barreled guns without bushings that need "paper clips" or some "tools", etc.

Kits from EGW to solve these "pesky" systems. ;)
Disassembling a bushingless "hybrid" is just like taking down a 1911 GM without removing the bushing. A "tool" isn't necessary. It's a crutch . . . like the bushing wrench . . . to make it easier. :butthead:

Jim

[watchin]

With the special bushing from EGW there is a tool required if your bushing is tight.
I haven't ever measured the difference of the slide travel on the OACP with the Clark's recoil plug. I will admit that things happen fast when you are shooting a 1911. I don't think that the average person would feel the difference between muzzle flip and the slide crashing hard into the frame. I guess that is why we are careful when we make any mods (drop in or not) that we test fire the gun for awhile before we entrust our lives or the lives of loved ones to those changes. I think the Para-Ordnance part is cheap enough to try for functionality. If I had to do a lot of mods to the part itself then I might be apprehensive about it. My original thought process was just to get a tighter bushing. That led to a more substantial recoil plug and a single spring. Since these were one-at-a-time changes it didn't seem so experimental. As with anything, certain people will have good results and some may have poor results.
As I stated, I am trusting my life that the Clark's recoil plug will function in a life or death situation. That sounds dramatic enough to be scary but it's what it is.
As for modifying the frame or slide, of course I would do that if I had to but if it isn't necessary to achieve the same reliability and accuracy then I would prefer not to.
I am an armed gun collector who appreciates the original condition of a firearm and also likes to spend time at the range shooting. Self defense first and foremost (function) and collector appeal second (form) and resale value last (finances).
-watchin-

[elijdub]

So, FWIW, i spoke to Clark yesterday. I just wanted to post what they had to say. The gentleman i spoke with seemed knowledgeable, and said that, in his opinion the lack of the additional rearward slide movement with the Clark plug, vs. the stock plug, is not an issue. He went on to say that they sell thousands of them and have NEVER had a single phone call, or return of the item, due to the part causing damage to the gun or otherwise malfunctioning....i.e., no one has complained, and everyone seems to be happy with the results of using the part.
Take if for what it's worth. I'm just the messenger ;)!

[Tombeis]

Wilson Combat make a fix for both the Springfield Compact Cal.45 and the Colt Officers Model. Following is an explanation from Brownells website:

COMPACT 1911 FULL-LENGTH GUIDE ROD KIT
Mfr: WILSON COMBAT
Ends Officers ACP & Springfield Compact Spring Plug Failures
Full length rod replaces the short, factory spring plug and guide rod for increased spring support, better reliability and smoother functioning. Two-piece, hex head guide rod and one-piece recoil spring are fast and easy to install. Installation requires only slight modification to slide. ( .70 must be milled from the slide shroud.)

SPECS: Machined stainless steel guide rod/head and plug. Heavy duty recoil spring. Officers ACP Rod (Off): .326" (8.2mm) diameter. Springfield Compact Rod (SC): .326" (8.2mm) diameter.
Catalog page 18
Stock Number 965-025-003 (Colt) 965-025-004 (Springfield)
Officers Guide Rod Kit $36.95
www.brownells.com

I installed this modification on a Springfield Compact Cal.45. The pistol is reliable and there is no worry of plug failure.

[watchin]

Tombeis, thanks for the heads-up. Nice price and sounds like a good way to go for a full length guide rod. The one thing that rules that out in my case is that it becomes a permanent modification requiring permanently modification of the slide. I wanted to try a reversible modification and keep the frame and slide stock on this particular Officers Colt. I did resign myself to making certain changes if absolutely necessary. I know that there are other folks who are fine with cutting and filing on their pistols but I am more comfortable with modifying the additional parts so that their fit and function are both proper. Part of this "crusade" comes from buying several "drop-in" parts over the years only to find that so many manufacturers use the term loosely. I.E. "It is definitely a drop-in part, all you have to do is cut the frame in half longitudinally and weld a .968 stainless steel shim in between the two halves, file the seam back to smooth and bead-blast it, then refinish it."
I am using that as an extreme example, of course, but to me a drop in part should not be sold as a drop in part if it requires any machining. By trade, I am not a machinist, but I am not adverse to hobby machining. If I am going to have a buy a 5-axis mill to get make a mod then I am probably going to just admire someone elses work.
Good job, by the way, on getting your Wilson's FLGR working on your Springfield. I find that the recoil system on some of the 'shorties' needs some beefing up.
-watchin-
Note: Amazing how many aftermarket solutions to the recoil system there are on short barreled 1911 style guns. And there are those that swear there is no problem with the original design.

[Tombeis]

I don't mind modification if it suits the way I want the gun. I have a Colt Gunsite and a Colt Commander lightweight on which I had Novak Extreme Adjustable sights installed. They required remilling both the front and rear of the slide. Novak did a great job. I like the sights,and I don't mind the modifications.

I had a gunsmith mill the slide shroud on the Springfield Compact Cal.45 to fit the Wilson kit. It works and I don't care about returning the Springfield to original configuration.

If you do care that the slide is modified on the Springfield Compact Cal.45 or the Colt Officers Model, the Wilson Combat kit is not for you.

[OD*]

Eli,

My Clark bushing came just a few minutes ago, I marked my receiver with the old plug installed after retracting the slide as far as it would go, the new Clark bushing (in my OACP) doesn't appear to effect slide travel at all.

[elijdub]

Dan,
Interesting.... My Clark plug does affect slide travel just a hair...actually probably about 2mm. It doesn't seem to be a problem though. That extra little bit of rearward travel...i really have to pull back hard on the slide to make it evident (with the stock plug installed)...taking the spring all the way to the hilt.
I went to the range today, firing my OACP for the first time (which was very, very fun, BTW!). I fired the first 50 rounds with the stock plug, then the next 50 with the Clark. I checked the dust cover ,etc. for potential wear and saw nothing. I feel confident about the part and plan on keeping it in place (barring any issues that may arrise).
I'm curious to know what you think..?

[OD*]

I'm curious to know what you think..?
I'll have to get back to you on that, Eli. ;)

I don't plan on shooting it until I get the Carry Bevel Bushing and ISMI flat recoil spring from George at EGW.
As of now, I really like the Clark plug, I had no desire to modify the OACP to use a different recoil spring plug.

[elijdub]

Sounds good OD. Lookin' forward to it.... I like the looks of the ISMI! I would've bought one but i'd already bought a Wolff single-spring. ..Next time.

[OD*]

I put a new Wolff in my OACP not long ago also, but George was very enthusiastic about the ISMI spring for the Officers size pistols that I just had to give it a try. ;)

[watchin]

Yes, the Clark's recoil spring plug works just fine in the Colt OACP. I can't say that it will work in any other models, clones, look alikes, or similar guns.
-watchin-

[elijdub]

I don't plan on shooting it until I get the Carry Bevel Bushing and ISMI flat recoil spring from George at EGW.
OD*, Did you have a chance to set-up your OACP with the new gear yet? Curious to hear your opinion of Clark plug and bushing and the ISMI?

[OD*]

No Sir, I haven't received the bushing or spring from EGW yet. :(

I will let you know when I do though. ;)

[elijdub]

Sounds good ;). Lookin' forward to it.

[ronbo5151]

I just installed an EGW melt bushing on my OACP and trial fit a Clark reverse drop-in plug. The Clark plug reduces by travel by just about the thickness of the "flange" on the plug. I haven't tried it out yet, but the reduction in slide travel doesn't give me a good feeling. The gun was flawless with the original setup. I'll be interested to see if the "retro" Para-Ord assembly works w/o reducing the slide travel. I can't see what kind of spring plug can be fit (other than the original) w/o machining the slide that wouldn't reduce the slide travel.

[watchin]

Ronbo, do you think your barrel is better supported with the EGW melt bushing than it was with the original Colt bushing?
The thickness of the flange on the Clark's recoil plug is pretty minimal but as we all know it doesn't take much to start 'throwing things off'. I have put many hundreds of rounds through my Colt OACP using 17 different magazines (of various manufacture) without a problem. If I remember correctly the flange is .066 thick. That will be the difference in your slide travel. That would also be the amount you would have to remove from the slide if you were sure that thickness was causing your pistol to malfunction. If that were the case your part would truly not be a 'drop in' part.
Personally, I want to keep my slide and frame in 'factory' condition as long as I can. If I had a problem (that I was SURE was the recoil plug's flange) I would shorten the flange a little at a time. This would be extremely easy to do with no special tools.
That flange thickness gives me a good feeling. :)
-watchin-

[Tombeis]

When I installed the Wilson Combat plug kit in a Springfield Compact, I sent a message to Wilson Combat asking why the stated .070 (seventy thousandths) had to be removed from the rear of the slide shroud. I had fit the parts without the alteration to the slide and the pistol seemed to function OK by hand. I received this answer from Nick Moraitis of Wilson:

"The curtain at the rear of the Wilson reverse plug takes up.070" more
room then the original SA plug. It will appear to function just fine
however your timing is now off and you can not expect 100%
reliability while shooting live rounds."

I had the slide shroud milled to the suggested .070. The Springfield Combat has functioned flawlessly every time I shoot it.

The Wilson plug on the Springfield Compact fills the same purpose as replacement plug kits for the Colt Officers Model. I would be weary of not maintaining the original recoil specs. of the pistol.

[ronbo5151]

Ronbo, do you think your barrel is better supported with the EGW melt bushing than it was with the original Colt bushing?
The thickness of the flange on the Clark's recoil plug is pretty minimal but as we all know it doesn't take much to start 'throwing things off'. I have put many hundreds of rounds through my Colt OACP using 17 different magazines (of various manufacture) without a problem. If I remember correctly the flange is .066 thick. That will be the difference in your slide travel. That would also be the amount you would have to remove from the slide if you were sure that thickness was causing your pistol to malfunction. If that were the case your part would truly not be a 'drop in' part.
Personally, I want to keep my slide and frame in 'factory' condition as long as I can. If I had a problem (that I was SURE was the recoil plug's flange) I would shorten the flange a little at a time. This would be extremely easy to do with no special tools.
That flange thickness gives me a good feeling. :)
-watchin-
I've got a nice lock up with the EGW bushing. Much nicer than the stock bushing which was too loose in my opinion. The relatively small, thin flange on the stock barrel bushing also didn't inspire confidence in me. The EGW bushing fits quite nice and is beefy. It took some work to fit but the result was worth it. I'm still contemplating what to do about the spring plug. I'll shoot it with the Clark's plug and see what happens. I'd like to leave the slide stock if possible. Ron

[watchin]

We are seeing some good opinions and suggestions here regarding the slide travel and reliablility. It may even come down to actually taking the 'healthy' recoil plug down a couple thousandths to see if that instills more faith in it's reliability factor. I would do that before I milled my slide down. (Modify small parts to fit the gun, not the other way around).
Again, I have not seen any diminished reliability but have to agree with the reality that it does shorten an already short slide.
Since Clark's has had this reverse plug on the market as a 'drop in' part and has sold many of them I wonder what someone else who has it installed thinks about it's reliablility.
We all know that from an engineering standpoint a bumble bee can not fly (but I don't want to stake my life on it).
How much rear 'overtravel' does a Colt OACP have? How much can it spare before it becomes a reliability issue?
-watchin-

[Hawkmoon]

How much rear 'overtravel' does a Colt OACP have? How much can it spare before it becomes a reliability issue?
-watchin-
Not much, it would appear.

Clark says their plug reduces slide travel by 0.066" and doesn't affect reliability. Wilson's plug reduces travel by 0.070" and they say it does affect reliabilty. That leaves a margin of 0.004"

Not enough for this old horse.

[elijdub]

How much rear 'overtravel' does a Colt OACP have? How much can it spare before it becomes a reliability issue?
This is the question!
I've done likewise and installed the Clark Plug. I've noticed the slight loss in rearward travel in my gun. It doesn't seem to be affecting anything....but i've only had it in for a week, shooting only 50 rounds through it. I would really like to see someone settle the score on this debate ;)!
Can the OACP be adversely affected by limiting the rearward slide-travel by .066"?????

BTW, i really like the Plug! It's "heft" insprires confidence in terms of reliability!
Next is the EGW bushing for me (which i still haven't installed). I'm still hung up on the (apparent) additional metal on the locking tab (which looks like it'll require that 2/3 be worked off for it to fit into the "keyhole" created by the bbl meeting the plug).

Great info in this thread folks!!!!!

[Hawkmoon]

I'll have to meausre the thickness of a shok-buff. I know it's thicker than the flange on these reverse plugs, but it's also polymer and somewhat compressible.

I mention this because my first 1911-style pistol after many years of not owning one was a Para-Ordnance P12.45 (an Officers-length pistol) that I purchased used. The owner of the local gunshop knew the seller of the pistol and vouched for both the guy and the gun, yet when I initially shot it I encountered all manner of malfunctions. I was a pretty unhappy camper.

Then I did a field strip, and I found ... a shok-buff. So I removed it, went back to the range, and the gun ran 100 percent with anything I threw into it. Shok-buffs almost never cause a problem in a Government-length pistol, they rarely cause a problem in a Commander-length pistol (so I'm told, I've never used them in a Commander), but the margin for error is clearly much smaller with an Officers ACP and they are less tolerant of anything that changes the way the pistol was designed to operate.

[1911Tuner]

There are two issues with the short-coupled 1911 variants that make'em so persnickety. One is less slide mass coupled with the necessarily heavier recoil spring...and the other is the shortened runup from the slide's starting point to the magazine as it returns to battery.

So...How can reducing the runup even more NOT affect reliability?

[watchin]

There are two issues with the short-coupled 1911 variants that make'em so persnickety. One is less slide mass coupled with the necessarily heavier recoil spring...and the other is the shortened runup from the slide's starting point to the magazine as it returns to battery.

So...How can reducing the runup even more NOT affect reliability?

I guess the only way to really answer that last question is to determine how much you can shorten that runup and still stay reliable. Once you go over that you may have problems.

I would never dispute the following:
1. The Colt OACP has a shortened slide.
2. This causes a shortened runup.
3. Some OACPs are very finicky about running at all.
4. The reverse recoil plug shortens the slides rearward action.

These are all pretty self evident if you look at the design. One solution (if this is really a problem) is to shorten the rear of the dust shroud on the slide by the thickness of the reverse recoil rearward flange (permanent mod to the slide) or..remove some of the thickness of the plug flange (essentially defeating why you went to a reverse recoil plug in the first place).

I think that my concern now is more about drawing the conclusion that by shortening the rearward slide motion automatically lessens the reliability. I haven't found that to be the case. Over time I may find that (but after hundreds of rounds of hardball round nose factory ammo I haven't seen this).
If I were shooting some low power reloads or super ++P rounds I might be singing a different tune.

There are many 'self evident truths' that are not true. In my particular case, and that is all I can speak from, shortening my slides rearward travel by .066 has NOT caused it to malfunction in over 500rds. using both WWB 230gr. and Federal 230gr. (Am.Eagle). My frame and slide are still stock from the factory on a Colt OACP, LW. This is turning into one of life's big mysteries I guess. I will say that the first time I took it to the range, after adding an EGW bushing and the Clark's recoil plug, I was pleasantly surprised. I only had OEM magazines with me at the time but since then I have used magazines by several different manufacturers. So far, no problems. Accuracy is up, reliability is 100%, close inspection shows no undue wear and tear.

As of 10/13/2007, that's my story and I am sticking to it! :D
-watchin-

[Farnorth]

So far it looks as if I'm the only one here who has experienced a malfunction because of the Clark reverse plug. As evidenced by the photos in post 55, I could see exactly where the slide impacted the barrel. It was a very light impact but enough to cause the slide stop to engage and hold the slide open with rounds still in the magazine. Once I figured out it was the reverse plug and put the original spring plug back in, no malfunctions of any kind have occured since. For my own peace of mind I think I will remove the .070 from the slide. I don't see where this will be a problem even if the original spring plug is reinstalled later. I'm going to give this gun to my grandson and I think this is the best solution. Thanks again to all for the excellent input on this thread. Greg

After rechecking my flange thickness, it seems mine is a bit thicker than most measured here. Mine measures .076, so maybe it could be taken down .010 or so and be OK? Greg

[1911Tuner]

I guess the only way to really answer that last question is to determine how much you can shorten that runup and still stay reliable.

And the only way that would be a litmus test is for all the guns to be exactly the same. One gun's performance doesn't prove or disprove anything. I've got a GI Colt that'll break your bank account tryin' to buy enough ammo to make it "jam"...until ya put a shock buff in it...and then it proceeds to go into spastic fits, and nobody except the gun seems to know why.

[elijdub]

Tuner,
If the Clark Plug isn't causing any reliability issues (we're talking about "failures", right?), is it O.K. to use? ...Can you foresee any other issues that could arrise from it's use?
I like the feeling of confidence i get from the heaviness of the component and am trying to seek out the "green light" in continuing experimentation with it....SO LONG as i'm not potentially causing damage.
Thank you.

[1911Tuner]

SO LONG as i'm not potentially causing damage

As long as it'll run, there's no potential for damage.

[paul45]

3) Can i replace the stock bushing with an aftermarket one that fits a little tighter, like an EGW, (during the course of changing out the recoil assembly) that will not require fitting at all?
ALL bushings will need to be fitted. That said, I chose an Ed Brown bushing to replace the stock one on my OACP and am very happy with the part.

So far it looks as if I'm the only one here who has experienced a malfunction because of the Clark reverse plug.
I read on 1911forum of another poster who experienced the same problem. Apparently, on some OACPs it shortens up the stroke just enough.

[elijdub]

As long as it'll run, there's no potential for damage.
That's exactly what i wanted to know.
Thanks!

[elijdub]

ALL bushings will need to be fitted. That said, I chose an Ed Brown bushing to replace the stock one on my OACP and am very happy with the part.
I spent an hour "fitting" my Melt Bushing yesterday. I got the OD fitted to the slide, and the ID fitted to the bbl, both perfectly!....but i butchered the locking tab :o . I slowly took more and more off, thinking "it will fit any time now", until there was nearly nothing left to it. I don't know where i went wrong :confused: .
I spoke with George at EGW, who was very friendly and helpful. He provided me with advice about the fitting, but i don't want to trash another bushing, so i'm sending him the "upper" today. I'm going to include the bushing so maybe he can provide me with some insight as to where i went wrong.
The EGW has an oversized locking tab on it. Without working on the tab at all, i first fit the OD to the slide. Then i simply tried to install it. When it didn't work i tried taking a little off the tab. The tunnel into which the tab fits (within the slide) is shaped like a "wedge" (with a curve). I kept taking more and more off, but it just wouldn't ever fit....and i'm fairly certain i've taken too much off at this point.
Does anyone have any idea about what i did wrong????

[watchin]

I cannot imagine, since I was intent on NOT altering that tab. I focused on everything BUT the tab. Remember that the bushing is designed to be installed and turned clockwise to tighten it. Are you saying that once you had it fitted with the locking tab aimed straight down it fit into the slide OK but would not turn? If you already sent it off to be fit then you probably won't need to do too much more work on it. Mine is as tight as it will go with the special wrench (and it bottoms inside the cutout 'wedge' inside the slide when it is aligned with the outside contours of the slide. I didn't have to take any material off of the locking tab. Sounds like you are probably a little frustrated at this point. It will pay off in the long run.
-watchin-

[watchin]

Eli, just because we have talked about it so much..this is a pic of my Colt OACP, LW with the fitted and installed EGW melt and Clark's recoil plug. The stock and slide are unmodified.
This has been extensively field tested.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff46/watchin_/ColtOM1.jpg
-watchin-

[ronbo5151]

IIRC, I had to remove a very small amount from the muzzle side of the bushing locking tab in order to get the bushing to turn. I used a needle file and didn't have to take much off, but it definitely wasn't going to fully rotate clockwise (looking at the muzzle) until I removed some material. I was installing a stainless bushing and put some black marker on it to see where it was getting stuck at. I didn't take anything of the "height" of the tab, but "thinned" it so it would clear the muzzle side of the slot/groove in the slide (if that makes sense). I used a needle file to dress down the tab.

[elijdub]

\ Are you saying that once you had it fitted with the locking tab aimed straight down it fit into the slide OK but would not turn?
-watchin-
watchin, That's exacly it... I fit the bushing to the slide...then tried to install it. It wouldn't turn (even with the wrench). I examined the locking tab's tunnel in the slide and determined that i needed to remove some material from the tab. I used black marker to see where it was contacting the tunnel. I continued to take more and more off, testing it with the marker each time, but it wouldn't ever fit.
I think, as much as i wanted to do it myself, i'll just send it to George. It is kinda' frustrating though...i worked on it meticuloulsy for a few hours. I hope that maybe by sending George the "abused" bushing he can provide me with some insight as to where i went wrong. The weird thing is that now there's hardly a tab remaining on the bushing and it STILL won't fit! I filed it down to a nub when i realized i'd trashed it. ..... :confused:
Oh well. Only a $20 part....
George said he'd do it for $15, which i thought was very reasonable.



BTW, your OACP looks great!!!!! I have my plug installed, and tested it for reliability (firing 100 rounds) without a hitch. I'm going to leave it in place. Thanks for all the advice. I'll post some pics when my gun returns from EGW.

[elijdub]

IIRC, I had to remove a very small amount from the muzzle side of the bushing locking tab in order to get the bushing to turn. I used a needle file and didn't have to take much off, but it definitely wasn't going to fully rotate clockwise (looking at the muzzle) until I removed some material. I was installing a stainless bushing and put some black marker on it to see where it was getting stuck at. I didn't take anything of the "height" of the tab, but "thinned" it so it would clear the muzzle side of the slot/groove in the slide (if that makes sense). I used a needle file to dress down the tab.
Huh.... Well now i feel dumb ;). Maybe that's all i needed to do. It appeared that it wasn't going to fit into the "tunnel" unless i removed some of the heigth. I used the marker trick too... It seemed like it was rubbing on the "top" of the tab...but i never even looked at the width!

Thanks for the post. I just might order another one....

[OD*]

OD*, Did you have a chance to set-up your OACP with the new gear yet? Curious to hear your opinion of Clark plug and bushing and the ISMI?
Eli, I finally got around to fitting the EGW bushing and had the pistol out on the range today. The fitted EGW bushing help accuracy and the Clark reverse plug has absolutely no effect on functioning. Quite pleased with all the parts. ;)

[watchin]

OD, let's hear how much trouble it all was and do you think it is worth it? You now have a pistol that is much better than stock but still reversible (in case you ever want to sell it to anyone who is 'sure' that the EGW bushing and Clark's Reverse Plug are detrimental to the form and function of the Colt OACP.
Got any pictures? I think I am going to customize the front end of mine a little (it's the creative side of me). :)
-watchin-

[elijdub]

Eli, I finally got around to fitting the EGW bushing and had the pistol out on the range today. The fitted EGW bushing help accuracy and the Clark reverse plug has absolutely no effect on functioning. Quite pleased with all the parts. ;)
Dan, Very glad to hear (on your behalf, and mine :o :D)! I also found the Clark plug to have no effect on function during 100 rounds. Needless to say, i'll shoot a few more hundred before i'm completely confident, but i feel 99% about it now.
I'd imagine the EGW would really help accuracy. Don't know if you "caught" that i was having trouble fitting my Melt Bushing... Instead of butchering another one i've sent the upper to George. I'm anxious to try it out for accuracy! ...Oh, did you have to file off the locking tab on the bushing at all?
Sure would like to see some pics :D!!!

[elijdub]

I think I am going to customize the front end of mine a little (it's the creative side of me). :)
-watchin-
Whatcha' thinkin' of doin'??? Very interesting...!

[OD*]

OD, let's hear how much trouble it all was and do you think it is worth it? You now have a pistol that is much better than stock but still reversible (in case you ever want to sell it to anyone who is 'sure' that the EGW bushing and Clark's Reverse Plug are detrimental to the form and function of the Colt OACP.
Got any pictures? I think I am going to customize the front end of mine a little (it's the creative side of me). :)
-watchin-
It wasn't too much trouble, it was just a little over-sized for my particular OACP. I cheated and used a Dremel with a fine sandpaper head on the ID and used a file and 800 grit paper on the OD. Yes Sir, I do think it was worth the effort, the EGW bushing is a much better part than what Colt supplied with the pistol.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/B1.jpg

[elijdub]

Looks good Dan! I didn't realize that Clark offered the plug in "blue". Which EGW bushing is that?

[OD*]

Thanks Eli.

Carry Bevel Bushing
http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=208

[watchin]

Great job Dan!!
Eli, I am thinking of some unique texture/engraving to the plug face. It is 'crying out' to me for some kind of treatment. My eye is used to seeing checkering there but I think that maybe a graphic (probably NOT a peace sign) or some unique type of texture. I know that I am going to take the 90degree edge off of it.
I will share it when I am done.
-watchin-

[ronbo5151]

It appears that elijdub is up and running with the Clark plug and Wolff spring, so there's not much urgency in exploring other alternatives. I believe I have persuaded Para-Ordnance to send me one of their retrofit assemblies, so if/when it arrives I'll do a write-up on how it goes into a Para-Ordnance P12.45 and a Colt M1991A1 Compact (a.k.a. budget Officers ACP).
Hawkmoon,
Any update on this endeavor? I'm still exploring non-permanent options to the stock spring plug. Thanks.

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon,
Any update on this endeavor? I'm still exploring non-permanent options to the stock spring plug. Thanks.
The Para-Ordnance repair facility in Tennessee is going to send me one of the retro-fit assemblies, but they are currently out of stock on it. They didn't say when it will be in stock, but as soon as I receive the part I'll see how (or "if,") it fits.

[elijdub]

Great job Dan!!
Eli, I am thinking of some unique texture/engraving to the plug face. It is 'crying out' to me for some kind of treatment. My eye is used to seeing checkering there but I think that maybe a graphic (probably NOT a peace sign) or some unique type of texture. I know that I am going to take the 90degree edge off of it.
I will share it when I am done.
-watchin-
Sounds good! Look forward to pics!
I like the simple look of a Custom maker's insignia (like YoBo's "Y"), etc., on a plug. I think Richard Heine does that on his plug's with an "H". Maybe you could do your initials...? I think a "melt" would look great! Keep us posted.

[elijdub]

Hawkmoon,
Any update on this endeavor? I'm still exploring non-permanent options to the stock spring plug. Thanks.
I've been wondering the same thing....
Lookin' forward to the "test" results Hawkmoon!

[Jim Watson]

My 'smith was building flatwire recoil spring sets with Glock springs before ISMI came out with theirs. That is the way to go. If you don't want to cut your slide for a regular flange or collar plug, get the Clark and drill a hole in it for the ISMI skinny FLGR.

[GunnyG]

Elijdub and I were discussing this as a tangent to commander framed Officer's ACPs in another thread, so I'll bring my contribution here as well:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/AR15/OACP-Sprinco2.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/AR15/OACP-Sprinco.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/AR15/DSC05054Medium.jpg
This is my Colt Night Officer's ACP (s/n ONO3XX), with Novak's adjustable rear sight and a matching front sight.

It came with the standard Colt Officer's barrel, bushing, recoil plug, and spring. I'm still using the barrel and bushing. It also got a good trigger job, and a McCormick Carbon Fiber short trigger installed shortly after I got it new, back in the mid 90's.

I recently put in a (now discontinued) Sprinco guide rod and recoil plug. It is a no-gunsmithing-required drop in. I've only had a few hundred rounds through the pistol since I put it in, but haven't had any instance of it short-stroking.

It replaced the Haarts recoil reducer I had been running for a while, until the tab on the bottom of that recoil plug sheared almost completely away. I had put the the Haart's unit on to avert the stock plug from doing that.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc68/gunnyg_photos/AR15/DSC05085Large.jpg
Left to right: Sprinco, Colt factory, Haarts

The Haarts recoil rod unit is also out of production. Designed to contain a ball bearing suspended in mercury, it buffered recoil impulse well enough, but the plug's sidewall was as thin as the Colt.

At least the Sprinco version has a flange on the rear face. Perhaps that will support the tab enough to prevent tearing. It was pretty snug the first time I put it in, but I have never had it be frozen into place. I wonder if Sprinco could be encouraged to resume production. I would like to buy a few spare plugs from them, to change out on a scheduled basis, like we do with springs.

Now that I see there are other options that don't require milling the slide, I may consider sending the Haarts mercury filled guide rod out to have a Clark's plug fitted.

While I'm not a big FLGR fan, in this case it also makes assembly/disassembly of the pistol easier. I can pull the slide back enough to allow the slide stop to be popped out, and then seperate the two halves. Reassembly is similar (without needing to control the recoil spring(s) at the same time) by installing the slide, and then holding the slide back under spring tension, while installing the slide stop.

[watchin]

Thanks for sharing, Gunny. That Haart's recoil plug is the same configuration as the factory, just a small tab of material away from flying downrange. I agree that the flange that is on your FLGR is better support than the factory plug. Nice setup, too bad it is discontinued but since the OACP is no longer produced I have seen the accessories for it almost dry up.
Nice pictures.
-watchin-

[elijdub]

+1! I know we'd discussed this briefly on the "Colt" thread, but as this is the proper forum i though i'd comment again.
I too like the Sprinco! I love the idea of a FLGR that doesn't require any milling! I prefer the idea of being able to have...well...a guide rod :o ;).

[Pistolier]

Hello everyone,

Now that time has past I would like to know how the Clark Custom recoil spring plug is working on your OACP Colts. I just picked up a 1991 A1 compact and was very interested in how you all resolved this after time and if any of you have found an even better way. Like most of you my officer model is like new and I would want to return it to stock if I needed to.

Thank you
Roy

[OD*]

Get the Clark Custom full length recoil spring guide, makes take-down much easier. I wish I would have went that way first.

[Pistolier]

OD,

Thank you for the heads up. I will look at the full length recoil spring guide. I wonder if Hawkmoon ever got the retro-fit assembly from Para-Ordnance and if they will work on a Colt. I looked on Brownells and it was on back order. I thought he might show up again on this thread but I will give him a PM and see how that works.

Roy

[elijdub]

Hey Roy, I've been happy with my Clark Plug. The gun runs without a hitch and the loss of approx. 1mm in slide travel doesn't seem to affect operation too much, if at all.

Hey OD*, I'm curious to know more about why you prefer the FLGR (i always thought you prefered GI set-ups)?
Takedown is kinda' tricky with the Clark Plug. So..if you went with their FLGRs, i'd guess you'd have to use a different Plug as well, right? ..One with a hole in the front end that allows the rod to pass through...? :confused:

[OD*]

Normally I do prefer the short guide rods, Eli, but I don't care for the take-down with Clark plug and short rod. You're correct Sir, you do need to use an open end plug for the rod to pass thru.

[Pistolier]

Eli,

Thanks for the update I was wondering how your OACP was doing. This was a great thread and would make a good sticky for new OACP owners. I really like my new to me 1991-A1 Compact and have a hard time changing anything on it. I like you want to be able to make it stock any time I want. Boy you got to love a Colt. :D

P.S. Do you know where a person might get original grips for this Colt. It is a parked 1993 model and the original owner had a set of Hogue rubber grips on it and did not have the originals. I got the box and paper work but in time he has lost the grips.

Roy

[Hawkmoon]

OD,

Thank you for the heads up. I will look at the full length recoil spring guide. I wonder if Hawkmoon ever got the retro-fit assembly from Para-Ordnance and if they will work on a Colt. I looked on Brownells and it was on back order. I thought he might show up again on this thread but I will give him a PM and see how that works.

Roy
Para said they would send me one, but they didn't. I don't think they're holding out, I reckon the guys at the repair facility just forgot.

[Pistolier]

Para said they would send me one, but they didn't. I don't think they're holding out, I reckon the guys at the repair facility just forgot.

Hawkmoon,

Thanks for the PM, I think you had the best idea. I am just going to get a 3 pack of Wolf springs and a extra plug and not worry about it. My Compact is a 1993 model and shoots great with all original parts so I think it will be good to go.

Roy

[DuckRyder]

I admit to not having an Officers ACP, so perhaps the answer to this question is obvious if you are looking at one, but:

Why could someone not design a bushing and plug that retained the plug in the same manner as the Government and Commander models?

Is it because there is so little space between the barrel and plug that you wouldn't be able to remove it?

Is the bushing so short inside the slide that it would not stand up to the twisting from the plug/recoil spring?

:confused:

[Pistolier]

I admit to not having an Officers ACP, so perhaps the answer to this question is obvious if you are looking at one, but:

Why could someone not design a bushing and plug that retained the plug in the same manner as the Government and Commander models?

Is it because there is so little space between the barrel and plug that you wouldn't be able to remove it?

Is the bushing so short inside the slide that it would not stand up to the twisting from the plug/recoil spring?

:confused:

Robert,

I am no expert but I think you answered you own question. It looks like the bushing is short and light and would not stand up to the strain. I have the OACP and a Kimber Ultra Covert, the OACP has the bushing and the Covert has the bushing less slide with the spring assembly. By the way I like the OACP the best :p even though Colt has went to the Defender and I think use the same system as Kimber.

Roy

[elijdub]

Normally I do prefer the short guide rods, Eli,...
I thought so ;).
...but I don't care for the take-down with Clark plug and short rod. You're correct Sir, you do need to use an open end plug for the rod to pass thru.
I can certainly understand that... I find it difficult as well (the takedown). Even more-so, i find the assembly tricky; having to smush...and bend..and tweak..the spring, in order to get everything lined up. BUT...i find it a worthwhile sacrifice, given the benefits of the Plug. I field strip my OACP so infrequently that i don't mind too much ;).

So, did you end up swapping out recoil assembly (FLGR and open-ended plug)?
OH, the important question (relevant to this thread): Is any "modification" to the slide required in order to make the Clark FLGR work?
Thanks OD*.

[OD*]

So, did you end up swapping out recoil assembly (FLGR and open-ended plug)?
OH, the important question (relevant to this thread): Is any "modification" to the slide required in order to make the Clark FLGR work?
Thanks OD*.
No Sir, I haven't gotten the plug and FLGR as of yet. It's not suppose to require any modifications, but you know how that goes. ;)

[Hawkmoon]

Hey Roy, I've been happy with my Clark Plug. The gun runs without a hitch and the loss of approx. 1mm in slide travel doesn't seem to affect operation too much, if at all.
1 mm?

It's more like 4 mm, Eli. That flange mikes 0,157" IIRC, and 0.157 x 25.4 = 3.9878

[elijdub]

1 mm?

It's more like 4 mm, Eli. That flange mikes 0,157" IIRC, and 0.157 x 25.4 = 3.9878
Huh. You're probably right. I'll remeasure it... I thought i remembered it being closer to "1" :o.

[elijdub]

Eli,

Thanks for the update I was wondering how your OACP was doing. This was a great thread and would make a good sticky for new OACP owners. I really like my new to me 1991-A1 Compact and have a hard time changing anything on it. I like you want to be able to make it stock any time I want. Boy you got to love a Colt. :D
No problem Roy. I agree about the "sticky" thread...there's a ton of info in this one (specifically about how to keep your OACP stock, while "upgrading" some of the more issue-prone components), as a matter of fact i have this one saved to my "favorites" and post it often when folks ask about the bushing/plug on the model. Yes sir, i couldn't be happier with my OACP and how it runs :). Glad to hear you're enjoying your Compact!

P.S. Do you know where a person might get original grips for this Colt. It is a parked 1993 model and the original owner had a set of Hogue rubber grips on it and did not have the originals. I got the box and paper work but in time he has lost the grips.
Roy
I can't remember what the original's looked like...(black with medallions maybe?)
But CDNN carries a nice pair with Colt medallions:
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/coofcobogrwm.html
If the originals were the black one's, i'd search gunbroker....you can usually find correct stocks there :).

[OD*]

I can't remember what the original's looked like...(black with medallions maybe?)
But CDNN carries a nice pair with Colt medallions:
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/coofcobogrwm.html
If the originals were the black one's, i'd search gunbroker....you can usually find correct stocks there :).
The later M1991A1s came with black rubber stocks with logo molded in, early ones the stocks looked the same but were made of plastic.

Plastic on left, rubber on right;
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/M1991A1Stocks.jpg

[OD*]

P.S. Do you know where a person might get original grips for this Colt. It is a parked 1993 model and the original owner had a set of Hogue rubber grips on it and did not have the originals. I got the box and paper work but in time he has lost the grips.

Roy
Here's one set after a quick look, you may find them cheaper if you look around.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=92258594

[Pistolier]

Here's one set after a quick look, you may find them cheaper if you look around.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=92258594


Thank you OD,

That is the same grip that is on my new 1991 Commander I guess they didn't change the grips much other than plastic to rubber.

[OD*]

You're welcome Sir.

I believe it depends on when your pistol was made, as to what stocks it will have. The new 1991 Commanders have been coming with double diamond walnuts (oops, I guess they are Rosewood) like these;
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_141/products_id/36335

[elijdub]

The later M1991A1s came with black rubber stocks with logo molded in, early ones the stocks looked the same but were made of plastic.

Plastic on left, rubber on right;
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/M1991A1Stocks.jpg
Thanks for the clarification OD* ;).

[MCPO]

First off, as a recent purchaser of a OACP I found this thread extremely interesting and informative! Special thanks to Watchin for posted part numbers. :)

. . . I am just going to get a 3 pack of Wolf springs and a extra plug . . .
Roy

I've been looking for a source for spare Recoil Spring Plugs, OEM or aftermarket, with no luck at all. Pistolier have you found any source for 'spares' ???

Lastly, will the Wilson #22 spring replace both of the factory springs or just the outer spring?

[elijdub]

MCPO, Wolff makes a spring to fit the OACP. Colt, nor anyone else (AFAIK), no longer produces the original factory dual-spring.
http://www.gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/ColtNF.html#Officers
Assuming you're using the original factory spring, the correct spring is stock number 423xx. This spring has a tapered end on the side that fits on the guide rod, since the factory OACP rod is slightly smaller in diameter. I'd recommend the #22 factory standard weight spring.

I'm not sure about the Wilson spring.... I don't know if it has the correct tapered end to fit the standard factory OACP guide rod. If you choose to try the Wilson, i'd definitely recommend calling first to determine if it's the correct diameter.

Hope this helps.

[MCPO]

Thanks Elijdub, I was thinking Wolff while I was typing Wilson - what my wife calls ever increasing 'Senior Moments'.
I want to keep my OACP stock so going the route described in this thread and keep the stock parts in the event I ever sell her.

In researching all the parts mentioned in this thread I found the Para-Ordance "Retro Recoil Spring Assembly" in stock at Brownells for $26.79. If I was sure that included all the parts (plug, spring, rod) I would buy it for a trail fitting.

[Pistolier]

First off, as a recent purchaser of a OACP I found this thread extremely interesting and informative! Special thanks to Watchin for posted part numbers. :)



I've been looking for a source for spare Recoil Spring Plugs, OEM or aftermarket, with no luck at all. Pistolier have you found any source for 'spares' ???

Lastly, will the Wilson #22 spring replace both of the factory springs or just the outer spring?

MCPO,

Some parts I have found are.

Barrel bushing, Brownells # 965-000-049
Recoil spring, Brownells #969-423-220
Recoil spring plug, Numrich #229940

Hope this will help I have ordered the plug and springs just for spar not that I think I will ever use them but they may get hard to find after next year. ;)

[MCPO]

Thanks Pistolier! Numrich has the blue in stock but not the stainless :(

I had previously found the Colt bushing at Brownells but looked at the photo vs reading the description and missed the Officer bushing was in stainless, so again thanks for that.

I may have to order the Clarks plug just for my own curosity. I did email EGW about having some Colt spec plugs made. They refered me to Clarks for their 'drop-in' 'shoulder plug'.

Can not believe no one has some old stock or that no one is making them or at least willing to manufacture them - must be a 'legal issue'.

Tks again.

[Pistolier]

MCPO,

If you don't have any luck on the Clark or don't like what you see you might want to look at this. Wilson Combat has a good guide rod & plug that requires a slight modification to the slide. If I ever did have more than one failure I think that is the way I will go. The only thing is your back to the 300 round spring change. :confused:

Wilson #25CO

[MCPO]

I've seen that but the "slight modification to the slide" keeps me from going there. I prefer to 'toss' a plug & spring over a permanent mod to the slide.

Mine is mainly a range gun that I would like to keep stock. May just buy a few blued plugs and set aside the stainless one for prosperity :)

Google found 1 description w/photos showing the guy milling the slide to install the Wilson GR & Plug. The Wilson web site states "slight modification to the slide for installation (instructions included)". I would like to find a copy of those instructions. Sounds more like what I would want a gunsmith to do vs me.

[Pistolier]

MPCO,

Thats the way I am going, I just got my OACP so I would have a officer size Colt . My CCW is a Kimber Covert or a Colt Commander and in hot weather I can go with a S&W model 60.

[Pistolier]

This is a update to the Retro Recoil Spring Assembly that Hawkmoon was talking about. I found the part at Brownells it is number 199-000-356. I also found a thread showing how to install the part with NO alteration to the gun and only slight alteration to the part. It is only $27 and they now have them in stock. If you want to see another way to go, the thread is very informative. I have ordered one and when I get it will give a second opinion.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826

[elijdub]

This is a update to the Retro Recoil Spring Assembly that Hawkmoon was talking about. I found the part at Brownells it is number 199-000-356. I also found a thread showing how to install the part with NO alteration to the gun and only slight alteration to the part. It is only $27 and they now have them in stock. If you want to see another way to go, the thread is very informative. I have ordered one and when I get it will give a second opinion.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826
Roy, Thanks for the informative post. I'm really curious to hear your opinion once you receive your Para assembly. Are you going to do the modification to the PLUG as the gentleman did in the thread on the other forum?...milling off the "ears"? It sorta' seems like you have to in order to make it work. Please keep us posted...and i'd sure like to see some additional pics once it arrives!

[Pistolier]

Roy, Thanks for the informative post. I'm really curious to hear your opinion once you receive your Para assembly. Are you going to do the modification to the PLUG as the gentleman did in the thread on the other forum?...milling off the "ears"? It sorta' seems like you have to in order to make it work. Please keep us posted...and i'd sure like to see some additional pics once it arrives!

Eli,

I think I will have to do a little modification to the part but it should be very minimal. From the pictures it looks like the part was for a bushing less gun like most of the new sub compacts. As the bushing on the OACP is very thin it should be very easy. It looked like the gentleman on the other forum had to remove very little metal to make this work and the results sounded very good. I will report back with pics as soon as I can.

Roy

[elijdub]

Right...makes sense. Looking forward to the report!

[Pistolier]

I got the Para-Ordnance Retro recoil spring assembly in, boy it looked good and so I field stripped my 1991A1 Compact down ready to go to work. :D

I am sorry to say that it sounded good and to me was worth the $27 to find out for sure. As we all know things you see on the web are not always as they seem and different folks will except different kinds of quality. Any one that looked at the link that I gave will see the last picture was blurred and as I see a lot of pictures on guns, some do not have very good camera work. But after looking at the part in hand I see why. The end plug will not come all the way out to the end to keep the bushing from turning in the slide. It will stop the bushing lug from turning all the way out, but not enough for me to trust. It also looks really bad and junked up. Sorry not in my Colt. :scared:

I have a extra plug and springs and after looking at the gun and thinking about it the more I think that a lot of this is a myth. I have no doubt that the gun smiths that have seen this are telling the truth, but all the stories I have heard say the plug was sent out and never recovered? It makes me wonder if the shooter may have not installed the plug in properly or if extra hot reloads may have been used. I don’t think the gun smith always gets the full story of what happens to a gun. :nono:

Sorry for making such a long story only to say I WOULD NOT install this in my Colt. ;)

[cornbread-red]

My stainless Officers is my primary carry. The only thing I've changed was the double recoil system to a single Wolff. I always change the recoil spring when I purchase a used gun. I've had no problems.

[MCPO]

. . . Sorry for making such a long story only to say I WOULD NOT install this in my Colt. ;)

Thanks for the feedback Pistolier. I suppose that's why the previous link talked about grinding to get that plug to fit in.

I got my OACP in yesterday and the only part that looked 'weak' to me was how thin the Barrel bushing was. My stainless plug looked good with no noticeable wear at all. As I only shoot 230gr FMJ I believe I'm good to go as well.

[Pistolier]

cornbread,

I have a Kimber Ulrta Covert and a Colt Commander that are my main CCW but I like this OACP so much more than the Kimber and it is lighter than my SS Commander that I am trying to make this my CCW. All the great comments like yours are helping. I hope if someone has had a failure and sees this they would speak up.

MCPO,

My OACP shoots POA at 15 yards and I love it, I am sure yours will do the same.

Roy

[elijdub]

Thanks for the update Roy. Would you mind elaborating on what exactly allowed the bushing to spin once the gun is fully assembled? I'm having a hard time picturing what's going on... Did you happen to snap any pics of the installed assembly :)?
Does Para adverstise that this assembly will work with the Colt OACP???

With regards to the plug failure, i've only ever heard of one single incident...the one that was discussed earlier in this thread. From what i gather, this is a fairly rare occurance. Personally, i'm happy with my Clark plug, though having to do it again, i might just keep a couple spare factory plugs around... I must say, it does instill a feeling of confidence to see the heft of the Clark though ;). Anyhow...

[Hawkmoon]

Does Para adverstise that this assembly will work with the Colt OACP???
Para does not "advertise" this assembly at all. They sell it to replace the OEM setup in the older P12.45 and 12.45 LDA pistols -- which happen to be identical to the Colt Officers ACP.

[elijdub]

Thanks. I was just curious. A lot of companies list with which manufacture(s) a given component is compatible. Wilson Combat comes to mind... I looked at Para's site and was unable to find the assembly at all :confused:.

[Pistolier]

Eli,

The plug end of the assembly will not go all the way to the end of the slide. It looks like it was for a 3 inch gun not a 3.5 inch. I did not even install the assembly or alter it because as soon as I put it in the slide and the end of the plug only reached the locking lug of the bushing and not the end of the slide I knew that was no good. If you look at the last picture the guy had on the other forum you can make out the hole in the end of the slide that is a good half inch deep. Trust me this thing is not even close to a fit. I do have pictures with out the bushing so you can see the end. I would go with the Clark but I just don’t like the slide travel problem. I may let you test it a little longer and see what happens.

Roy

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm2.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm3.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm4.jpg

[elijdub]

Roy,
Thank you very much for posting the pics. I was going back and having a second look at the thread on the "other" forum and noticed in the pics that it appears that the plug he is using does meet the end of the slide. It looks that way in this pic:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/IMG_0800.jpg

What do y'all think? Could it be possible that there are more than one Para assembly? I'm just tryin' to get to the bottom of this. It looks like in his pics that the plug is longer than the model that you have, though i have no way of knowing for sure....pure speculation based on the appearance of the pics in the thread.

[Pistolier]

Eli,

The part numbers are the same as the one that the guy on the other forum gave on his thread. And the same Para number for the p12.45. If you look close at this picture that the guy gave even though it is blurry you can make out the plug not coming to the end of the slide. I missed it the first time and that is why I ordered the part. The numbers are Brownells 199-000-356 Para 0430019.
As I look at the two pictures together the one you show does look different?
I think I will call Brownells tomorrow and see what they say.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm5.jpg

[George Smith]

Thanks for the update Roy. Would you mind elaborating on what exactly allowed the bushing to spin once the gun is fully assembled? I'm having a hard time picturing what's going on... Did you happen to snap any pics of the installed assembly :)?
Does Para adverstise that this assembly will work with the Colt OACP???

With regards to the plug failure, i've only ever heard of one single incident...the one that was discussed earlier in this thread. From what i gather, this is a fairly rare occurance. Personally, i'm happy with my Clark plug, though having to do it again, i might just keep a couple spare factory plugs around... I must say, it does instill a feeling of confidence to see the heft of the Clark though ;). Anyhow...

People would only bring or send in one that was having problems but we have had at least a dozen either fail outright or be bent folded or mangled on the edge of failure. (stock plugs in para and colt)

geo

www.egw-guns.com

[elijdub]

Thanks George. That's good information, as often this failure is discussed as a myth. I'm really glad to hear from a professional on this one.

Do you recommend any particular method of dealing with the plug issue?

[elijdub]

Eli,

The part numbers are the same as the one that the guy on the other forum gave on his thread. And the same Para number for the p12.45. If you look close at this picture that the guy gave even though it is blurry you can make out the plug not coming to the end of the slide. I missed it the first time and that is why I ordered the part. The numbers are Brownells 199-000-356 Para 0430019.
As I look at the two pictures together the one you show does look different?
I think I will call Brownells tomorrow and see what they say.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/asm5.jpg
Roy,
I just noticed, it looks like the assembly in the thread uses a different guide rod as well.... The pic in this post (and others in the thread) show a black rod (the "plunger" type?), while the rod in your gun appears to be stainless.
Also, your assembly doesn't appear to have the "flanges" that the gentleman had to file off...(?)
I do see what you mean about the plug seemingly not coming to the end of the dust cover in the pic above...

I'll be curious what Brownells has to say.

[Pistolier]

People would only bring or send in one that was having problems but we have had at least a dozen either fail outright or be bent folded or mangled on the edge of failure. (stock plugs in para and colt)

geo

www.egw-guns.com

George,

Thank you for your input, I have used many of your parts and value your comments very much. Like Eli I would appreciate your thoughts on the best way to resolve this problem. I thought I had found one but it looks like Brownells sent me the wrong part. :(

[Pistolier]

Roy,
I just noticed, it looks like the assembly in the thread uses a different guide rod as well.... The pic in this post (and others in the thread) show a black rod (the "plunger" type?), while the rod in your gun appears to be stainless.
Also, your assembly doesn't appear to have the "flanges" that the gentleman had to file off...(?)
I do see what you mean about the plug seemingly not coming to the end of the dust cover in the pic above...

I'll be curious what Brownells has to say.

Eli,

I just talked to one of the gun smiths at Brownells and he said it sounded like the part that was sent to me had the wrong label on it. :( The part that should have been in the package was on back order and they would send it to me as soon as they can. He thinks that the one I got was for a warthog a 3 inch gun and the part I ordered was for the 3.5 inch that is what I wanted so I am going to try one more time. :confused: After George Smiths post it makes me want to do this even more. I have used a lot of his parts and they have always worked great.

Roy

[Tombeis]

If I were doing this conversion again, and I have had it done to two pistols. I would trust my life to two people. One is George Smith at EGW, and the other is Bill Wilson with his solution to this problem.

Your life is too much to risk to trust it to amateur gunsmithing.

[Hawkmoon]

I just talked to one of the gun smiths at Brownells and he said it sounded like the part that was sent to me had the wrong label on it. :( The part that should have been in the package was on back order and they would send it to me as soon as they can. He thinks that the one I got was for a warthog a 3 inch gun and the part I ordered was for the 3.5 inch that is what I wanted so I am going to try one more time.y
I have just gotten off the phone with George Wedge at Para-Ordnance. He reviewed the thread and your photos while we talked, and he confirmed that the part shown in your photos is NOT the correct part for a P12.45 retrofit. Further, from what George explained to me it also sounds like the part shown in the write-up on "the other" 1911 forum is also not the P12.45 retrofit assembly.

To put this to rest, Para-Ordnance has agreed to send me one of the correct P12.45 retrofit assemblies, which carries part number 0430019. George asked me to make clear that Para-Ordnance does not and cannot endorse the use of their product in another brand pistol, since it was designed and is manufactured for use in a Para-Ordnance product. However, since I am not affiliated with Para-Ordnance, I can point out that the original equipment barrel bushing and recoil spring plug from an old Para P12.45 is identical to and interchanges with the same parts in a Colt Officers ACP. Y'all can draw your own conclusions from that.

I hope to receive the care package from Para-Ordnance next week. As soon as I have the new part in hand, I will do a write-up with photos.

[elijdub]

Roy, Interesting turn of events ;). I'm anxious to hear your report once Brownells get's the correct part in stock. BTW, i think EGW parts are great too.



Hawkmoon, Thank you for your efforts. I look forward to your report and appreciate you taking the time to clear this up. I think it will benefit a lot of individuals, as many seem to be interested in alternatives to the factory OACP assembly.

[MCPO]

I am amazed that the sale of "components" to 'fix the problem' is more available than the actual Colt plug. I can perhaps understand Colt not continuing to manufacturing the part for a discontinued gun, but surely it's not that complicated a part that some aftermarket company, or even a small machine shop couldn't turn our.

Being fair to say I have absolutely no experience in machining :)

[George Smith]

Thank you for the kind words guys! I appreciate it.

Mcpo,
Not the easiest part in the world to make but with cnc lathe and live tooling or turn than mill in a 4th axis it can be done.

The problem is the part is fatally flawed.
Officers guns take a 22# recoil spring. The std coil spring is not up to the task so you get to the double springs or what we recomend the Flat Glock spring system and the collar style plug. Yes you need to alter the slide to put it in. Yes it is worth it.

The spring plug is .499 diameter and it has a .452 hole in it. that is under .025 per side! pretty skinny stuff. Depending on the set up the back face impacts the slide so that may get dinged up a bit. and the key that is intended to take the recoil is narrow.

A collar style plug is .531 diameter so the back is thicker by 50% and it is a full circle so much stronger.

The plugs fail from the key, stress cracks AND if the spring stacks it will kill the plug fast.

A good test is to put the plug in an empty slide from the front and make sure the entire recoil spring fits into the plug. if it stops short even by 1/8 of a coil the spring stacks and the full recoil of the slide will be transfered to the spring plug. Plug looses.

We use the flat spring system with a 1/4" guide rod, drilled for a take down pin for easy cleaning.

Even the older hat style plug systems have issues. Some times the hat turns and the slide crushes the ear and hopefully you catch it when cleaning your gun. Also the fact that the hat has a cut out the stress riser where the thick meets the thin (again .024) you will find cracks often.
Jeff thought up a plug that combines a hat plug with a collar plug, when you cut out the hat to fit the slide the thickness of the remainder of the plug is again 50% thicker for longer life.

hope this makes sense, it's late
geo

www.egw-guns.com

[1911Tuner]

A little off-topic...sorta...but I'll take the opportunity to +1 the comment about EGW.
I don't endorse anyone's work based on pretty pictures...but I've had the opportunity to handle and closely examine two examples of EGW's work. Don't know if George himself did the work, or if he was the overseer...but I could find exactly nothing wrong, and I literally used a magnifying glass as I picked through'em. Additionally, both pistols shot like a house afire and other than a failure to lock the slide with a questionable magazine that one owner had bought at a gunshow for 5 bucks...there were no functional issues during extended range sessions. Both guys had invited me to bring ammo and come try out the guns...on different dates nearly 6 months apart, and as most of you know...I don't shoot a box or two at the range. When I go to shoot...I go to shoot.

And here's the kicker. They'd both bought the guns used from the original owners, so there was no telling how many rounds they'd had down the pipe.

Thread-jack over. Carry on, lads!

[MCPO]

. . . We use the flat spring system with a 1/4" guide rod, drilled for a take down pin for easy cleaning. . .www.egw-guns.com

George, the work you are talking about above is the work EGW lists under "1911 Services - Reliability 'Install EGW Officers bushing, guide rod, reverse plug'"???

Sounds like something I may be interested in. Thank you for taking the time to drop in and explain the flaws with the plug. Very informative and appreciated.

[Pistolier]

Hawkmoon,

Thank you again for your valued insight. I just got back from a trip and had not been able to read your post until now. I look forward to your post. One thing that concerns me is how two people get the wrong parts from Brownnells using the same part numbers? :confused:

Thombeis,

+1 on your comments and I only carry weapons that have been tested 100% no matter who has done the work new or used. ;)

George,

Thank you again for your input and like MCPO asked is the Reliability work on your web sight what you are talking about? I may just go that way if I have to. Just waiting on Brownells and Hawkmoon. :confused:

Eli,

Great thread and I think maybe it has a life of its own. :D

Thank you all that are participating I think everyone’s ideas are very useful.

Roy

[Hawkmoon]

Thank you again for your valued insight. I just got back from a trip and had not been able to read your post until now. I look forward to your post. One thing that concerns me is how two people get the wrong parts from Brownnells using the same part numbers?
Brownells is staffed by humans, and they have a HUGE inventory to deal with. Beyond that, I'll forego further comment until I receive the part from Para-Ordnance, and see how it compares to the new recoil assembly in the Slim Hawg.

[BBBBill]

...We use the flat spring system with a 1/4" guide rod, drilled for a take down pin for easy cleaning....
I've got one of these and like it very much. I figured the available spring space at .725" and the fully stacked Glock style spring at .625" if I remember correctly. No chance of spring stack on this rig.
Whazzat about drilled for a takedown pin? I hadda cut the rod to length and drill my own takedown pin hole.

[Hawkmoon]

This is a update to the Retro Recoil Spring Assembly that Hawkmoon was talking about. I found the part at Brownells it is number 199-000-356. I also found a thread showing how to install the part with NO alteration to the gun and only slight alteration to the part. It is only $27 and they now have them in stock. If you want to see another way to go, the thread is very informative. I have ordered one and when I get it will give a second opinion.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826
Update:

I sent this link to George Wedge at Para-Ordnance and asked him to look at it. Here's his response:

That is not the retro-fit assembly. That is a 0430012, not a 0430019. The 0430012 is for a 3 1/2" top end without a barrel bushing.
The 0430019 is for a 3 1/2" top end with a barrel bushing.
The difference between the 2 is in the recoil spring plug.
Which confirms that the correct retrofit assembly would not have any ears that would have to be ground off. I haven't yet received the sample of the correct assembly from Para-Ordnance, but I will post a write-up as soon as I have it.

[Pistolier]

Hawkmoon,

Thank you again for your good work. I sent the part back to Brownells and let them know it was not a Para 0430019 that was marked on there package and they told me they would send me the correct part when it got in from backorder. Did Mr. Wedge say anything about having them in stock and would they sell them direct? If you find they work satisfactory I may need to buy one direct from Para.

Roy

[MCPO]

Hawkmoon,
. . . If you find they work satisfactory I may need to buy one direct from Para.
Roy

Make that 2 of us :)

[elijdub]

Thanks for the clarification, Hawkmoon. ...Looking forward to the results of your write-up.

[Pony Doc]

I note that several contributors to this thread have solved the problem with a Clark reverse recoil spring plug and the EGW barrel bushing. My question is- Will the Clark reverse plug work with the factory bushing or is the EGW bushing required to make this set up work.

[Hawkmoon]

I note that several contributors to this thread have solved the problem with a Clark reverse recoil spring plug and the EGW barrel bushing. My question is- Will the Clark reverse plug work with the factory bushing or is the EGW bushing required to make this set up work.
The Clark plug works with the standard barrel bushing.

[elijdub]

+1. I use the Clark plug with the standard barrel bushing:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/004-7.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/elijdub/001-2.jpg
(sorry for the "muzzle shot"...i just wanted to show how the two parts "mate")

[RickB]

Someone asked, about fifteen pages back, about how Detonics manages the spring/guide/plug in their 3.5" guns. The guide rod has no flange on it. Rather than seat against the frame, the guide rod head seats against the slide stop pin. That way, the slide comes back and makes direct contact with the frame (well, the reverse plug makes direct contact with the frame), rather than sandwiching the flange in between, so the slide has a flange-thickness more travel as a result. The plug makes up the last 1/4" or so of the recoil spring tunnel, and the collar is 360 degrees; there's no relief for the barrel. Early Combat Masters had two springs, while later ones had triple springs. The tip of the guide rod is threaded for a small screw. The whole unit is removed through the rear of the slide, and is disassembled for cleaning or spring replacement by simply removing the screw. One thing that bothered me about the design is that there is almost no spring pressure holding the gun in battery. The spring is within about 1/2" of being at its static length when installed in the gun. It seems the gun really relies on momentum to lock, as there's little spring left at the end of slide travel to push the slide/barrel/cartridge into battery. And the slide on the Combat Master is really light. I had Cylinder & Slide custom-build two complete recoil systems for my gun, based on the Seecamp design, but they didn't work, as there wasn't enough support in the frame for the thin, sheetmetal flanges on the guide rods, and the flanges just buckled and collapsed after a few test rounds. I also tried the spring that ISMI sells for their Officers recoil system, but the hole through the inside of the spring was too much larger than the Detonics guide rod, so the spring snaked around and rubbed on the barrel. It functioned OK, but I didn't like how it felt or even sounded as the gun cycled. I'm now using the dual-spring set that King's sells for their Officers recoil system, mounted on the stock rod. I wish ISMI made a spring with a smaller ID; what's the ID of their Glock spring? Will it fit on a standard (1911) diameter rod?

[elijdub]

Here are the link's to EGW's page's on the Glock springs. I'm not sure which one would be required. I'm also not sure what the ID of either is, but maybe George will chime in.
http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=193
http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=192

Do you have any pics of the Detonics pistol? I'd like to see what it, and it's recoil assembly, look like. What's the OD of the stock rod? I'm guessing that it's not the same diameter as the Colt factory rod (?).

[RickB]

I've tried to find a good pic of the recoil assembly, but no luck, yet. A similar unit, seating on the slide stop pin, was also used by Safari/Olympic on their Enforcer. There was a thread on this forum, I think, in which I debated various spring and rod diameters with someone, and I'll have to find it. I think the rod on the Detonics is slightly smaller than the stock Officers rod, as it has to accommodate as many as three, rather than two springs. I'll check with EGW on the ID of the Glock springs. Thanks
Edit: The Detonics guide rod is .2" in diameter. It appears that .25" is the aftermarket standard for Officers rods and springs (the stubby factory rod is apparently closer to .3"?). So, if the Glock spring is also .25" ID, that's the same as the spring I bought from ISMI, eight-nine years ago. I'm curious as to why "Glock" springs from ISMI, when they do sell (or did?) a complete guide/spring/plug set for the Officers?

[elijdub]

From Wolff's site, the common aftermarket guide-rod diameter is .330" (for use with Kimber, Para, Springfield, etc.):
http://www.gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/ColtNF.html#Officers
Unfortunately they don't list the size of the OACP factory rod. Since the two are refered to as "standard factory" and "full diameter", i always assumed that the OACP factory rod was smaller than the aftermarket part.
Hopefully George will jump in to answer some of the ISMI questions... Also, he's always been very quick in responding to my emails in the past.
I'm curious to see the make-up of the assembly that seats on the slide-stop pin (if/when you find a pic)....

[Tombeis]

The Officer's ACP rod I have here measures: .2580. The inner spring is: .2630 id.The outter spring is .3385 Id.

The above was out of a Colt Night Officer II which is a Officer's model slide on a full size frame. The rod is a short rod.

I replaced the above with a Wilson Officer's FLGR and single 22 LB. spring.

[Glock1911]

Good info in this thread. Wish I had read it months ago.
I went the Wilson's FLGR route on my OACP. Can't say that I'm unhappy about that decision, even though some milling of the slide was required.
The gun works nicely with the guide rod and is more than accurate enough for defense use.

[elijdub]

Glock1911, do you have any pics of the Wilson assembly in your OACP? I'd like to see what it looks like/how it works for "reference".

[Glock1911]

Just this one. I'd have to disassemble it for any internal shots/actual shots of the guide rod and machine work. Might do that later, if I get a chance.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/Glock1911/DCP_0004_10002.jpg

[elijdub]

Thanks. No problem...i was just curious.

[Glock1911]

Maybe I'll just bring it with me on my next trip down to Albuquerque, or you could drop by the house in Jemez on your next fishing trip.

[Pistolier]

Eli,

I looked at the Wilson FLGR and they say to change springs every 300 rounds. If I were to modify the slide I think I would go with the ISMI or EGW using ISMI springs with life time warranty. The link below has a good write up on this setup. Just go to this sight and click on gun springs officer.
Roy

www.ismi-gunsprings.com

[elijdub]

Maybe I'll just bring it with me on my next trip down to Albuquerque, or you could drop by the house in Jemez on your next fishing trip.
Good point...I forgot how close you were :). Last year i drew an Elk tag in unit 6C (if you're familiar with the GMU's) and spent a LOT of time scouting in between Jemez and Los Alamos (across from the Valle Grande) ;).
I might just take you up on your offer next time i'm in the Jemez :D.

[elijdub]

Eli,

I looked at the Wilson FLGR and they say to change springs every 300 rounds. If I were to modify the slide I think I would go with the ISMI or EGW using ISMI springs with life time warranty. The link below has a good write up on this setup. Just go to this sight and click on gun springs officer.
Roy

www.ismi-gunsprings.com
Thanks for the info and link, Roy. I've heard only good things about the EGW/ISMI set-up; i'm just trying to get a sense of what others are using ;).

To be honest, i'm planning on sticking with my Clark Plug, unless/until it's determined that the slight lack of slide travel is negatively impacting my pistol's operation....or i hear that there's a better assembly (like possibly the Para). I really do not want to modify the dust cover if i can avoid it ;).

[Pistolier]

Eli,

Have you had a chance to shoot your officer any more? And about how many rounds do you think you have on the Clark plug. Not to bug you about it but I have not heard anything from Brownells on the Para setup and it seems like the availability is in question. If I could get 100% past the slide travel thing I think the Clark plug would be the simplest solution. Have you had any stoppages what so ever with the Clark? Thank you again for test gun and this thread it is a good one. :dead_hors

[Glock1911]

Good point...I forgot how close you were :). Last year i drew an Elk tag in unit 6C (if you're familiar with the GMU's) and spent a LOT of time scouting in between Jemez and Los Alamos (across from the Valle Grande) ;).
I might just take you up on your offer next time i'm in the Jemez :D.

Not to hijack your thread, but you bet I'm familiar with unit 6C. I used to own a piece of property back in Del Norte Canyon. The wife and I spent many hours/days on horseback in that area. Beautiful country even before you get off the beaten paths. Gets even more beautiful when you leave those paths.

You are welcome to stop by anytime you are in the area. Give me some advance notice and I'll chill the beer and fire up the grill. :D

[elijdub]

Eli,

Have you had a chance to shoot your officer any more? And about how many rounds do you think you have on the Clark plug. Not to bug you about it but I have not heard anything from Brownells on the Para setup and it seems like the availability is in question. If I could get 100% past the slide travel thing I think the Clark plug would be the simplest solution. Have you had any stoppages what so ever with the Clark? Thank you again for test gun and this thread it is a good one. :dead_hors
Roy, You're not bugging me whatsoever! I'm always happy to discuss 1911's (and more) :).
I probably have 200 rounds through my OACP since the Clark install... I haven't had any semblance of a failure of any kind! I really think this is the way to go. Obviously, George knows his business, and if i was willing to modify my gun i'd have him do it and install the EGW set-up. But "Tuner" chimed in a while back in this thread and said (paraphrasing here), "if the plug is going to cause problems, it'll do so right away". In other words, if it works, it works ;). I think that he meant that in some guns the lack of slide travel might cause problems (slight variations in component size, maybe?) and that if the plug wasn't making any trouble then there shouldn't be any concern in continuing to use it. I don't like paraphrasing people (especially someone like Tuner) so i'm going to go back through the thread and see if i can find his post....
It's been my pleasure participating in this thread. I've learned an immense amount of info about the OACP. I still haven't written off the Para set-up just yet; i'm really curious to hear what Hawkmoon has to say.
I just wanted to add that there are a few other members who've been using the Clark plug (exclusively), some of whom have participated in this thread, and have had the same results as me (no failures of any kind). I think OD* has had similar results... Maybe he'll chime in...
I'm no "pro", but i'm just having a hard time seeing how the small amount of travel could cause trouble, long-term. I realize that the OACP (and compact 1911's) are already at a disadvantage because of their size...and need to be "sprung" heavier (i think) to ensure proper feeding, etc., but along the lines of what Tuner said, if the gun is operating minus the slide travel, it seems to me that it should be OK ;).

edited to add: Roy, i really think it's a solid approach to ensuring a more reliable OACP (from my experience and from what i've read). It'd be great if you, too, would give it a try so we'd have more people experimenting with this set-up...and hopefully have a larger group of users on which to base these assumptions of success.

[elijdub]

Not to hijack your thread, but you bet I'm familiar with unit 6C. I used to own a piece of property back in Del Norte Canyon. The wife and I spent many hours/days on horseback in that area. Beautiful country even before you get off the beaten paths. Gets even more beautiful when you leave those paths.

You are welcome to stop by anytime you are in the area. Give me some advance notice and I'll chill the beer and fire up the grill. :D
Sounds great! I'll send you a PM to get your contact info when i'm headed up that way. 6C is beautiful country indeed. I just wish there were more elk there :( ; they all live across the highway in the Caldera ;). I spent 5 straight days hunting last season without seein' hide nor hair... That's hunting for ya' ;).
Can't find my topo map of the region at the moment, but IIRC, the area i was hunting was called Sawyer's Mesa. We had to hoof it out Sawyer's Mesa Rd., which doesn't allow vehicles, for several miles to get to the Mesa. Really nice area with tons of "sign"...but no elk that week. At the end of my last day, discouraged, i drove out before sunset (deciding to skip the last couple of hours of legal shooting)....i got back on the highway (heading back towards Jemez) and as i was passing the Valle Grande i noticed, at a very minimum 600-1000 head of elk grazing the afternoon away :). They're smart animals! VERY limited hunting on the Caldera (as i'm sure you know).

[Pistolier]

edited to add: Roy, i really think it's a solid approach to ensuring a more reliable OACP (from my experience and from what i've read). It'd be great if you, too, would give it a try so we'd have more people experimenting with this set-up...and hopefully have a larger group of users on which to base these assumptions of success.

Eli,

I am going to order the Clark plug Monday, I am also going to leave my order for the Para FLGR with Brownells and maybe I will get it someday. The OACP is such a great little shooter I can't help but want to make it 100% but also don't want to alter the slide. I do hope the ones that have used the Clark will keep us informed on how they are doing and the round count. :D

[elijdub]

Roy,
Sounds good! I'll look forward to hearing your opinion when it arrives. I plan to do some more shooting this week (i haven't been out in a while, between the weather, hunting season, and home-repairs)...so hopefully i'll have some additional rounds through the OACP and further evidence of the Clark's success!

[Hawkmoon]

Gentlemen, this is a thread about recoil assemblies, not a chat room. We allow for a modest amount of thread drift, but please use chat or PM or SMS to discuss your own, private arrangements for meeting up. Thanks.

[Glock1911]

I'd be more than glad to go back and edit my posts, if that would help.

[elijdub]

Sorry folks :o... I got carried away there yesterday. Back to the OACP.

[Pistolier]

As every one that has been following this thread knows I have wanted to update my Colt compact 1991A1 for some time. This may seem to be a long story but it took some real interesting turns. As you know we had several options but the one I was leaning toward was the Para recoil assembly. I had ordered one from Brownells but received the wrong one. I then tried to buy one from Para but they do not supply parts direct and they told me Brownells is there distributor. This is not slamming Brownells they have been very good, I only mention this to save members the time I have already spent. I did get the assembly from Brownells yesterday and made the same modifications that the gentleman from the other forum outlined and I am happy to say that I had the same outcome. I will give his link below to save repeating it. I will also show some photos of my new CCW.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826

I would also like to thank Eli for this thread and all the members for your kind help.



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp2.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp3.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp4.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

As every one that has been following this thread knows I have wanted to update my Colt compact 1991A1 for some time. This may seem to be a long story but it took some real interesting turns. As you know we had several options but the one I was leaning toward was the Para recoil assembly. I had ordered one from Brownells but received the wrong one. I then tried to buy one from Para but they do not supply parts direct and they told me Brownells is there distributor. This is not slamming Brownells they have been very good, I only mention this to save members the time I have already spent. I did get the assembly from Brownells yesterday and made the same modifications that the gentleman from the other forum outlined and I am happy to say that I had the same outcome. I will give his link below to save repeating it. I will also show some photos of my new CCW.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826

If you had to grind off ears such as shown in the photos in that other write-up ... you did NOT get the Para-Ordnance retrofit assembly. George has sent me two of them -- they do NOT have the ears. I haven't written it up yet because I have some questions on which I am awaiting answers from George, but I can tell you now with absolute certainty that what the guy on The 1911 Forum showed is not the retrofit assembly. The retrofit assembly requires zero field modifications -- it just drops in. However, it doesn't have a rear flange, it still relies on a tab on the underside to hold it in the slide. That's the question I have for George -- was the intent of the retrofit assembly to correct the perceived weakness of the tab, or was it because Para felt the dual spring setup would function smoother.

Stay tuned. This ain't over yet.

[Pistolier]

Hawkmoon,

I know you told me that the proper retrofit assembly did not have the ears that need to be ground off and I also know you are right. The only problem is that Para is not sending Brownells the right parts under there #0430019 and as they are the supplier of parts for Para I was hoping to get the one you were talking about. Brownells sent me two assembly's for a 3 inch gun before I talked one of there gun smiths into going down and measuring the reverse plug. I am glade now that I did get the one with the rear flange as I do not see how using the tab would help. I would stay with the Colt setup before I would go that way. I used a # 2 Swiss file and emery ribbon to get the plug real smooth and it was really no problem. The assembly works great it is smooth and does not take away any slide travel. :D I also got one of the Clark plugs but could not get past the shorter slide travel. All in all I really like the Para assembly but I also like the original Colt setup and can use it any time I want to.

Thank you for your idea on this even if I couldn’t get the right part I think it worked out for the best. I am a happy camper and love my little compact.

[elijdub]

As every one that has been following this thread knows I have wanted to update my Colt compact 1991A1 for some time. This may seem to be a long story but it took some real interesting turns. As you know we had several options but the one I was leaning toward was the Para recoil assembly. I had ordered one from Brownells but received the wrong one. I then tried to buy one from Para but they do not supply parts direct and they told me Brownells is there distributor. This is not slamming Brownells they have been very good, I only mention this to save members the time I have already spent. I did get the assembly from Brownells yesterday and made the same modifications that the gentleman from the other forum outlined and I am happy to say that I had the same outcome. I will give his link below to save repeating it. I will also show some photos of my new CCW.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=190826

I would also like to thank Eli for this thread and all the members for your kind help.



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp2.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp3.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb237/Pistolier/poacp4.jpg
Thanks for your input Roy. I'm a little confused about which assembly is which...but the one you installed does look clean. Have you had a chance to shoot it yet? I'm very curious to know what you think about the overall strength of this assembly. Despite the fact that this may not be the actual retrofit assembly, we may have stumbled upon an additional fix to the OACP "issue"! Thanks for the photos (and the kind words; it's been my pleasure participating in this discussion).

[Pistolier]

Eli,

Yes I have put 50 WWB 230gr FMJ and a magazine of Remington JHP my carry ammo I had in my extra magazine for my Kimber Ultra Covert. The Colt was 100% and as smooth as silk. You are right this can not be the right assembly but from what Hawkmoon said the right one was like, I would rather have the Colt with the Wolf spring than that. Its funny sometimes you can just stumble onto a good thing with out even trying.
:lm:

PS,
On the overall strength of this assembly, it is not as strong looking and as well built as the one in my Ultra Covert but I think it will do the job and I think Para has used this in many of there guns. If I had not wanted to keep my gun stock I would go with the EGW and may go that way at some point. This gun is extremely accurate and I do like its balance. This has just been a $27 experiment that went good.

[elijdub]

Roy, Excellent news..it running 100%! I too am a little skeptical of the idea of another assembly that relies on the "tab", but will wait until, and look forward to reading, the full and final report.
More than anything else, this thread has really opened up a lot of different ideas and alternatives to the factory assembly. I agree, i'd go the EGW "route" if i wasn't opposed to modification. I think for $27 you did great! The photos look excellent (you sure do have a tidy "shop"...you should see my mess ;)).
p.s. Thanks for the report!

[MCPO]

I would L-O-V-E to get my hands on one of the Para-Ordnance retrofit assemblies Hawkmoon talks about. I have no problem trusting the tab and it sounds like Para has the dual springs as well - I like that too.

Hopefully Hawkmoon will eventually provide enough info that will enable me to also obtain a unit from Para-Ordnance. I understand it's not made for a Colt, but I'm willing to try it! ;)

[ElrodCod]

Here are the link's to EGW's page's on the Glock springs. I'm not sure which one would be required. I'm also not sure what the ID of either is, but maybe George will chime in.
http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=193
http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=192

Do you have any pics of the Detonics pistol? I'd like to see what it, and it's recoil assembly, look like. What's the OD of the stock rod? I'm guessing that it's not the same diameter as the Colt factory rod (?).

Flat Officer's Spring (http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=189)

[ElrodCod]

Ed Brown Officer's recoil assembly can be found here (http://www.gunaccessories.com/1911/brown/GuideRod.asp)

[Glock1911]

The Ed Brown recoil assembly is almost identical to the one Wilson sells, but the EB unit costs considerably more money.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/a_guide_rods_officers.asp

[Pony Doc]

I have a question regarding the use of the clark reverse plug mentioned earlier in this thread. I purchased a CLK 208 OM reverse plug w/o hole for use with the factory guide rod and recoil spring. Assembly was a little messy and it looked like the recoil spring was almost wadded up between the plug and the barrel link. However, iT did function flawlessly once assembled. Is it normal for the spring to be so kinked up? and does anyone have tips to make assembly and disassembly easier? Thanks

[Pistolier]

I have a question regarding the use of the clark reverse plug mentioned earlier in this thread. I purchased a CLK 208 OM reverse plug w/o hole for use with the factory guide rod and recoil spring. Assembly was a little messy and it looked like the recoil spring was almost wadded up between the plug and the barrel link. However, iT did function flawlessly once assembled. Is it normal for the spring to be so kinked up? and does anyone have tips to make assembly and disassembly easier? Thanks

Pony Doc,

Yes it is normal and a easy way to assemble and disassemble the OACP and other standard guide rod 1911’s is to grasp the slide with your fingers down around the bottom holding every thing in as you remove the slide or assemble it. This is the way the gun smiths at AGI do it and it makes it very simple. I do it on the stock plug and rod also it takes less time than rotating the plug and all of that. One thing I have also found is if you will partially install the slide stop when you first line up the link and then line up your installation notch it is a lot easier.

Roy

[elijdub]

I have a question regarding the use of the clark reverse plug mentioned earlier in this thread. I purchased a CLK 208 OM reverse plug w/o hole for use with the factory guide rod and recoil spring. Assembly was a little messy and it looked like the recoil spring was almost wadded up between the plug and the barrel link. However, iT did function flawlessly once assembled. Is it normal for the spring to be so kinked up? and does anyone have tips to make assembly and disassembly easier? Thanks
Pony Doc,
Several of us noticed the same "messy" assembly with the Clark plug. It is "normal" though. I thought i was doing something incorrectly at first. I just try not to disassemble this gun too often ;). Now...my spring didn't actually "kink" though; it just was sorta' difficult to istall and i had to smush it (the spring) up into the gun as i placed the slide back onto the receiver. A little bit tricky, but i've gotten the hang of it. I really don't know that there are any tricks to assembling the OACP with the closed-end plug.
Glad to hear that it functioned flawlessly! That's yet one more OACP working fine with the Clark plug, despite the loss of slide travel. I'm really happy with this set-up.

[Pistolier]

Pony Doc,

If you want to get away from the spring being pushed into the receiver and a real clean fit you might want to check out the Para assembly that I used earlier in this thread it works great. For $27 plus shipping you can have a up to date type gun with full slide travel no alteration to the slide. It is Brownells #199-000-356 and works great. You have to make some small modes but it is real easy, check out my post a few posts back.

Roy

[MCPO]

I'm assuming from your photos that it's a blued end & rod. Not a 'pretty' mod for us with stainless OACPs. :(

[Hawkmoon]

I'm assuming from your photos that it's a blued end & rod. Not a 'pretty' mod for us with stainless OACPs. :(
Para sells stainless pistols. They have the same thing in stainless, it's just a matter of finding the corresponding part number.

Just remember that the part Pistolier received is not the Para retrofit part, so if Brownells gets their numbering system straightened out, what you'll get if you order that part isn't going to be the same thing Pistolier received.

[jasonub]

Pony Doc,

If you want to get away from the spring being pushed into the receiver and a real clean fit you might want to check out the Para assembly that I used earlier in this thread it works great. For $27 plus shipping you can have a up to date type gun with full slide travel no alteration to the slide. It is Brownells #199-000-356 and works great. You have to make some small modes but it is real easy, check out my post a few posts back.

Roy

Hi Roy,

I too dont want to modify the slide. did you use your old colt bushing? And will this work with the egw bushing?

Thanks and this thread has confused me reading everything and absorbing too many inputs :)

[Pistolier]

Hi Roy,

I too dont want to modify the slide. did you use your old colt bushing? And will this work with the egw bushing?

Thanks and this thread has confused me reading everything and absorbing too many inputs :)


Jasonub,

Yes I used the old colt bushing and it works great. My 1991 A1 compact is very accurate and looks like it will be very reliable. I only have about 100 rounds using the new assembly but it has been 100%. I have not used a egw bushing on it but see no reason why it should not work, although it would look funny because the egw is thicker and the plug would not come all the way to the end. If you do try this do know that I had a lot of problems with Bownells getting the right part and you will have to modify the end plug by removing the ears so the bushing will fit. I used a file and emery ribbon and it looks as good as factory. I am very happy with this modification and would recommend it as one of many ways to solve a problem that may or may not even exist. ;)

Roy

[gb6491]

Hi,
This thread has been a great read :appld:
Any updates?

How has the kit with the tab worked out?

Anyone know if Brownells got their part numbers straightened out?
If they have, are these correct:
Brownells p/n: 199-000-356 (Para p/n:0430019) is for the one with a tab.
Brownells p/n: 199-000-352 (Para p/n:0430012) for the kit with ears.
I think I would like to order and take a firsthand look at one (or both) of the kits.

I currently have an EGW FLGR and flat wire spring with a modified Clark plug in my OACP. I also am using the EGW bushing. So far, I have had no trouble at all; it runs like a champ :)
http://i29.tinypic.com/35brs5z.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2dt1ule.jpg
I did lose a slight amount of slide travel as you can see in the photo (stock on the left):
http://i29.tinypic.com/r7ty02.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[elijdub]

Greg, thanks for the great pics of your OACP. I've been wondering what the EGW/ismi set-up looks like. So it looks like you cut a hole in the plug to accomodate the rod? Nice looking set-up.

[gb6491]

Greg, thanks for the great pics of your OACP. I've been wondering what the EGW/ismi set-up looks like. So it looks like you cut a hole in the plug to accomodate the rod? Nice looking set-up.
You are welcome and thank you Eli.
I did drill the plug for the rod. I also took some material off the back of it and some off the guide rod button to reduce the amount of travel lost to the plug. This wasn't really necessary as it worked beforehand, but I liked the thought of it. Taking material off the plug required removing some from inside the plug to prevent the spring from stacking out side of it. The plug is quite thick in the nose. The flange on the plug looks quite thin in this photo, but it is about as thick as the button on the guide rod pictured.
http://i29.tinypic.com/15iam2g.jpg
BTW - EGW and ISMI are great folks to work with. I think the EGW recoil system is quite nice, but for several reasons I did not want to modify my slide and went this route.
Regards,
Greg

[flintsghost]

I have installed the Ed Brown and the Kings. Both work equally well and have never had a problem with either.

[elijdub]

You are welcome and thank you Eli.
I did drill the plug for the rod. I also took some material off the back of it and some off the guide rod button to reduce the amount of travel lost to the plug. This wasn't really necessary as it worked beforehand, but I liked the thought of it. Taking material off the plug required removing some from inside the plug to prevent the spring from stacking out side of it. The plug is quite thick in the nose. The flange on the plug looks quite thin in this photo, but it is about as thick as the button on the guide rod pictured.
http://i29.tinypic.com/15iam2g.jpg
BTW - EGW and ISMI are great folks to work with. I think the EGW recoil system is quite nice, but for several reasons I did not want to modify my slide and went this route.
Regards,
Greg
Greg, Thanks (again) for the explanation. Very interesting idea that looks like it's worked really well. I use the Clark plug as well and agree that it's quite thick. I like the idea that some of the material can be removed to help minimize loss of slide travel. Another great idea that gets around modifying the slide....