FTF-3 point jam

[WyoBob]

With the Lee 200 gr SWC bullets I'm using in my SA 5" loaded, I get occasional FTFs. Sometimes, they jam in pretty solid but often, if I remove the mag and pull slightly back on the slide and release, they will feed. The cartridge does not make it up into the extractor but catches on the breech face before getting to the extractor and am wondering why it stops at that particular point.

This Lee SWC bullet is the only one I have trouble with. I've played with all sorts of COALs. I've shot a couple of thousand Penn 200 SWC and they have never failed to feed. The nose diameter of the Penns is a larger diameter and I feels better mimicks the "contact points" of the 230 gr. round nose. (All of the 230 gr WWB round nose bullets I've shot have never failed to feed). I just use the Lees for practice and use the Penn bullets when shooting plates. No big deal, just kind of a challenge to try & get the Lee bullets to feed. When I get them shot up, I'm going to go to a different mold.

WyoBob

[John]

First of all, you have to clarify to us what malfunction you have. Failure to feed means that the nose of the round is stuck on the frame's feed ramp, while the rear is still in the magazine, pushed by the lower edge of the breech face. If the nose of the round has entered the chamber, even a little bit then you do not have a failure to feed (FTF) but a failure to return to battery (FTRB) which is a different animal.

Details please, everything is in the details.

[WyoBob]

First of all, you have to clarify to us what malfunction you have. Failure to feed means that the nose of the round is stuck on the frame's feed ramp, while the rear is still in the magazine, pushed by the lower edge of the breech face. If the nose of the round has entered the chamber, even a little bit then you do not have a failure to feed (FTF) but a failure to return to battery (FTRB) which is a different animal.

Details please, everything is in the details.

How right you are, John. The nose is stuck in the top of the chamber, the case head is stuck on the breechface, so it's a FTRB. I always thought a FTRB as having the case in the chamber but the slide did not completlely close. One of the many things I've been wrong about in my 60 years :butthead:

Thanks, WyoBob

[pa_guns]

Hi

As I understand what you are describing, the cartridge is *not* hanging up on the extractor.

The interesting thing about this particular type of problem is that it can come from a couple of sources.

What should happen: The cartridge gets quite a ways into the barrel while the barrel is still down against the frame.

What is happening: The barrel is starting to move up off the frame into lockup to early.

The question obviously is why. You need to take a look at how the round is coming out of the magazine. It's hitting some part of the barrel "early" ...

Bob

[John]

I would think so too, since he is experiencing the problem only with those particular reloads. Most probably the shape of the nose is hitting the barrel's ramp too low, causing the barrel to move forward and up, thus creating the jam.

Try this test: use a market to cover the ramp of the barrel with ink. Then feed the cartridge and see if it removes some of the marking. If the ink is removed anywhere except the top edge of the barrel's feed ramp, your ammo is moving the barrel up.

What sort of magazines are you using? Are they GI-style or the wadcutter style?

[WyoBob]

I would think so too, since he is experiencing the problem only with those particular reloads. Most probably the shape of the nose is hitting the barrel's ramp too low, causing the barrel to move forward and up, thus creating the jam.

Try this test: use a market to cover the ramp of the barrel with ink. Then feed the cartridge and see if it removes some of the marking. If the ink is removed anywhere except the top edge of the barrel's feed ramp, your ammo is moving the barrel up.

What sort of magazines are you using? Are they GI-style or the wadcutter style?

Well, that was interesting. I used a sharpie on the top, inside of the barrel, the beveled portion of the barrel and the ramp that is integral with the frame. The 230 gr, round nose WWB bullet just very faintly "nicked" the feed ramp on the frame. Very hard to notice.

The Lee 200 SWC took a lot of black off, low on the frame feed ramp. It does look like the cartridge went straight ahead and just plowed into the ramp. The impact left quite a "smiley" in the black. The "bevel" (barrel throat?) wasn't touched and the top area of the chamber had a couple of "skips" where the bullet nose hopped along.

The confusing thing to me was the pattern left by the 200 SWC Penns, which feeds just fine, looked very similar to the Lee. My wife has the digital camera on a trip so I wasn't able to take pictures. The Penns also had a couple "jumps" across the inside of the top of the barrel.

There was certainly a dramatic difference in the pattern left by the 230 gr. RN compared to the two 200 SWCs.

I am using 6, Springfield supplied 7 round mags with the dimpled followers. All mags are around the same age and probably have about the same round count.

Thanks, WyoBob

[1911Tuner]

From all your descriptions, you have excessive stem bind that causes a 3-Point Jam.
If you can induce the stoppage by hand, remove the extractor and see if it goes away.

Also a good indication if it only hangs on the top two rounds, then feeds better the closer to the last round you get.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The two "choices" are that either it hangs up on the extractor or ir starts the barrel moving "to soon". Pulling the extractor will eliminate the possibility that the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor.

Bob

[WyoBob]

From all your descriptions, you have excessive stem bind that causes a 3-Point Jam.
If you can induce the stoppage by hand, remove the extractor and see if it goes away.

Also a good indication if it only hangs on the top two rounds, then feeds better the closer to the last round you get.

I haven't been able to induce the stoppage by hand. Been trying all afternoon. My "jams" seem to occur any place in the mag. Sometimes it occurs on the top round when releasing with the slide stop.

I appreciate your help. I'm glad you have "endeavored to persevere" (yes, I did a search on "stem bind" and have read enough that my brain is about to shut down :)

I just finished a little experiment. I removed the barrel and replaced the slide on the frame and inserted 3 mags. One with the Lee 200SWC, one with the Penns SWC and one with the WWB 230 round nose. Interesting. Both "models" of the 200 SWC hit the ramp and jam a bit. They pop out of the mag and won't fit under the extractor (because things are moving too slow). The 230 grain round nose barely touch the ramp and jump out of the mag and out of the gun. There is no hang-up or resistance with the round nose.

Thanks, WyoBob

[WyoBob]

Hi

The two "choices" are that either it hangs up on the extractor or ir starts the barrel moving "to soon". Pulling the extractor will eliminate the possibility that the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor.

Bob

When I observe the jam, the case head is well below the extractor. Is it possible the case head hits the extractor and then moves back down? My guess would be, no.

The SWC bullets are hitting the ramp in the frame. When I put "sharpie" marker on the bevel part of the barrel, the bullets never touched it. So, is it possible the jam on the frame ramp is causing the bullet to jump up and force the barrel forward by jamming into the top of the chamber?

I do, on occasion get hard, 3 point jams that put "smilies" on the case. These can not be cleared by removing the mag, pulling the slide back, re-inserting the mag and releasing the slide. When the hard jams happen, they're wedged in really tight and I need to push a wood dowel up the grip to dislodge them.

WyoBob

Thanks, WyoBob

[1911Tuner]

Both "models" of the 200 SWC hit the ramp and jam a bit.

Remove the extractor and see if it makes a difference. If it does, your extractor is likely at the root of it. If it doesn't, your feed ramp may be a little steep or rough.
Your pistol may be a candidate for a hybrid magazine. Seen it work more than a few times...

[pa_guns]

Hi

Do you have any other mags lying around?

The "release" of the round from the mag does have an impact on all of this.

Bob

[pa_guns]

Hi

After the fact you will get the usual damage to the round in question. The question to focus on is "how did this get started?".

Bob

[John]

My guess exactly Johnny, this pistol is a candidate for a hybrid magazine or even a GI style one. It looks as if the rounds are releasing too slow in their forward travel and hitting too low on the frame's ramp. My guess is that the hybrids would allow it to release sooner and also to tip up sooner. The GIs may be even more suitable for this one.

[WyoBob]

I removed the extractor (& firing pin) and cycled the Lee 200 SWCs through different mags, many times (into the "bullets to pull bin" these go.) I was never able to induce a jam. The chambering sounded "better", i.e. smoother (less ca-chunk?) without the extractor in place. Even though the 3 point jammed rounds were not under the extractor, is it possible for rounds to "bounce off" the extractor and lodge lower on the breech face?

Something new did crop up. I got "smilies" on several rounds from feeding. I usually got the smilies when the round 3 point jammed. These fee really well with no hesitation I could observe and still ended up with these smilies as pictured below. I can understand how the smilies occur when a jam takes place but have no idea how this could happen when the round feeds fine.

I guess I need to know about the hybrid magazines, i.e. the names so I know what to order. I only own 6 of the Springfield, 7 round mags.

Thanks fellas,

WyoBob

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Targets/DSCN1455.jpg

[niemi24s]

How smooth is the top of the chamber?

[mgraff]

WyoBob- If your interested Ned Christiansen will be in Casper for his 1911 armorers class on Oct 6th. Still have a slot or two open.

Let me know
Mark

[WyoBob]

How smooth is the top of the chamber?

It's not as shiny as the ramp on the right (barrel out of my Champion. The barrel on the left is out of the pistol we're discussing). It's not rough, either. I'd describe it as having a "satin" finish. No obvious rough spots (viewed under magnification) and the finish is the same for the whole chamber.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN1439.jpg

As an aside, here's a link to a pic of the Penn 200 SWC bullet on the left and the Lee 200 SWC that I cast on the right showing the difference in bullet nose diameter: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN1442.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN1441.jpg

WyoBob

[niemi24s]

The smilies, I think, are just cased by stem bind which isn't severe enough to result in a 3 point jam. The round is temporarily hung up (without stopping) on the chamber top, barrel feed ramp top corner and breech face.

A "satin finish" chamber should be just fine.

Other than the magazines others mentioned, some possibilities that come to my mind are: the top edge of the barrel feed ramp should have a slight radius (0.02 inch, max.) and be nice & smooth; the breechface should be fairly smooth; the top edge of the firing pin hole should be free of burs and maybe have just a hint of radius or chamfer.

Do you use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die on the problem bullets?

[WyoBob]

The smilies, I think, are just cased by stem bind which isn't severe enough to result in a 3 point jam. The round is temporarily hung up (without stopping) on the chamber top, barrel feed ramp top corner and breech face.
Makes sense to me. There are abrasion marks up and down the brass in addition to the smilies. I imagine both are caused by imperceptible "bind" and "scraping" on the way into the chamber caused by contact in the area where the beveled portion of the barrel transitions to the straight part of the chamber?
Other than the magazines others mentioned, some possibilities that come to my mind are: the top edge of the barrel feed ramp should have a slight radius (0.02 inch, max.) and be nice & smooth;
Under magnification of my "optivisor" that I use for tying flys, this area had some machine "chatter" marks. I touched up this area with some 800 grit and then gray Scotchbrith. I really didn't remove material, just smoothed the chatter marks. My barrel bevel is along way from .02". It's about .011".
the breechface should be fairly smooth; the top edge of the firing pin hole should be free of burs and maybe have just a hint of radius or chamfer.
The breechface has a lot of deep machining marks. All I did in this area is hit it lightly with some 800 and Scotchbrite. It's smoother than it was but there is no taking out the machining marks. I try to know my limits :)

Do you use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die on the problem bullets?
You know, I've never used this die for any of my reloading. I do test all of my loadings to make sure they easily drop into the chamber and that the rounds aren't loaded too long & jamming into the rifling. I'm a little leary of "swaging the lead bullets" with the FLCD and possibly loosing the tight fit that I have that prevents bullet set back. Speaking of which, it took an awful lot of trips through the chamber for my Lee loads to suffer any setback. They started to loose their grip after about 5 trips through.

If you looked at the other links to the bullet pictures, I really pretty sure that is 99.9% of the problem. I played with the barrel and several different cartridges loaded with the Lee and Penns bullets, just pushing them in the approximate angle that I thought they might be hitting the top of the barrel. You could really feel the Lee loads "hang" like they really wanted to stop for awhile. The Penns loads feed in just like the 230 grain round nose.

Thanks, WyoBob

[niemi24s]

Here's a goofy idea to maybe help shoot up the Lee bullets without buying more mags: After getting the rounds loaded, dip just the bullet noses in a liquid alox bullet lube and let it dry. Might help the pointy-looking little buggers wiggle all the way into the chamber.

[WyoBob]

Here's a goofy idea to maybe help shoot up the Lee bullets without buying more mags: After getting the rounds loaded, dip just the bullet noses in a liquid alox bullet lube and let it dry. Might help the pointy-looking little buggers wiggle all the way into the chamber.

Way ahead of you. The bullets are tumble lubed with LLA :D

I'm going to play with the Lee bullets for awhile and see if all of the help I received from you and others in this group pans out with the Lee. I'm also going to order a different 200 SWC, probably from Chey Bullets in Cheyenne and see how they function. And, I'm going to find a different mold that casts a more accurate copy of the H&G 68.

Thanks, WyoBob

[1911Tuner]

You're experiencing a 3-Point Jam. The "smilie" is proof. Greasing your bullets won't do a thing for it. Neither will polishing your barrel "throat." The cause of the problem is that your bullet noses are hitting your barrel ramp and pushing the barrel forward and up into the slide before it's time for the barrel to move forward and up into the slide. The barrel ramp/throat is NOT an extension of the feedramp...nor is it a bullet guide. It's a clearance. The cartridge should glance off the feed ramp and slid across the top corner of the barrel ramp...thus placing downward force onto the barrel and maintaining its position in the frame bed until the cartridge breaks over and enters the chamber. THEN...the barrel may move forward as the slide impinges on the barrel hood...and the gun will go to battery almost as effortlessly as if it were empty.

[WyoBob]

You're experiencing a 3-Point Jam.The cause of the problem is that your bullet noses are hitting your barrel ramp and pushing the barrel forward and up into the slide before it's time for the barrel to move forward and up into the slide.
Johnny, Thanks for staying with me on this. I've been staring at the STI animation trying to wrap my brain around what you are telling me. The bullet hitting the ramp is putting upward pressure on the barrel. This induces some drap, then? This is only happening with the Lee bullet design and my thinking was that, because of the reduced bullet nose diameter, the nose was hitting the top of the chamber at too steep of an angle. If a different style magazine with an earlier release were used, this particular bullet might feed OK? Both of my 1911s feed the Penns 200 SWC and the 230 round nose rounds 100%. My simplistic solution is to not use the Lee bullet but I am enjoying learning about the whole feeding mechanism.

BTW, I did remove the extractor as you suggested. The rounds hand cycled very smoothly and some, if not all, of the "ka chunk" disappeared.

The barrel ramp/throat is NOT an extension of the feedramp...nor is it a bullet guide. It's a clearance. The cartridge should glance off the feed ramp and slid across the top corner of the barrel ramp...thus placing downward force onto the barrel and maintaining its position in the frame bed until the cartridge breaks over and enters the chamber.
The round is placing downward force on the barrel. But, the round did not "break over" as the nose is jammed into the top of the chamber. Does this mean the magazine lips are not releasing the round soon enough?

Thanks. I've really enjoyed learning about the mechanics of the 1911. Maybe someday, everything will "click" and all will be clear to me.

BTW, I polished up the extractor, (angles, etc.) per info obtained here and fired 50 rounds of the Lee loads through the gun today. I had one jam that was easily cleared by pulling back slightly on the slideand releasing and the round fed fine.

WyoBob

[1911Tuner]

Bob...Sounds like the extractor is a player, but not likely the cause. Just an enhancement that makes it more likely or makes it jam harder. Did the "smiley" disappear when the extractor was missing? Was it reduced?

I suspect that your frame ramp is a little shallower than it should be. A hybrid-lip mag may help...may not...depending on how far out of spec it is.

Your present magazine may also be releasing a little late for the cartridge OAL and the bullet nose shape/geometry. It's a tough call without having the gun on the table.

[1911Tuner]

As an afterthought...

With the barrel in the frame bed...slidestop pin through the frame and link...barrel pushed down and back firmly...is there a 1/32nd inch gap between the top corner of the frame and the lower edge of the barrel ramp? It can be a little more...but not less.

[WyoBob]

Bob...Sounds like the extractor is a player, but not likely the cause. Just an enhancement that makes it more likely or makes it jam harder. Did the "smiley" disappear when the extractor was missing? Was it reduced?

I suspect that your frame ramp is a little shallower than it should be. A hybrid-lip mag may help...may not...depending on how far out of spec it is.

Your present magazine may also be releasing a little late for the cartridge OAL and the bullet nose shape/geometry. It's a tough call without having the gun on the table.

I just hand cycled the rounds through without the extractor. I think you meant for me to fire the pistol? Hand cycling didn't cause any jamming.

It seems like the bullet nose just barely touches the frame ramp. By hand cycling, I think I'm getting "tuned in" to what's going on a little bit more.

I'll probably stick with the 6 mags I have for awhile and try some "store bought" 200 SWC designs and then order a different mold. As I said, RN and the Penns feed fine. Maybe I should be concerned that this one particular Lee bullet doesn't function 100% but, as this is a target/steel plate gun I'm not. But, I enjoy learning about the 1911 and how it functions and looking for solutions to problems. One reason I bought a 1911---the mechanical aspects, the sounds, the history and the fun of learning!

I thought I had the Lee functioning and decided to use those loads at our steel plate shoot and I was having a very good day until a Lee round jammed. Cost me the match. Didn't hurt anything but my pride.

WyoBob

[WyoBob]

As an afterthought...

With the barrel in the frame bed...slidestop pin through the frame and link...barrel pushed down and back firmly...is there a 1/32nd inch gap between the top corner of the frame and the lower edge of the barrel ramp? It can be a little more...but not less.

Looks like 1/32" on the money.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

I just hand cycled the rounds through without the extractor. I think you meant for me to fire the pistol? Hand cycling didn't cause any jamming.

No. Hand-cycling is fine. Some will run surprisingly well without the extractor...but most don't.

If there were no hitches without the extractor...we may have just found your bug.
Take the extractor back out. Hold up a round with the hook engaged on the rim. Use a strong light to see if the tip of the hook is bottoming out in the extractor groove. Check also to see if the nose is in contact with the angled portion of the extractor groove when the rim is at the mid-point of the hook and the front pad.

If the clearance is there in both areas...try taking a little tension off the extractor by straightening it slightly. May be a trial-and-error operation...but that just might nail this one.

One other thing...At the bottom of the wall...where the rim first touches the extractor as it feeds...Is there a slight bevel there? It helps the rim cam the extractor open, and smooths out the feeding in many guns.

[WyoBob]

If there were no hitches without the extractor...we may have just found your bug.
Take the extractor back out. Hold up a round with the hook engaged on the rim. Use a strong light to see if the tip of the hook is bottoming out in the extractor groove. Check also to see if the nose is in contact with the angled portion of the extractor groove when the rim is at the mid-point of the hook and the front pad.
Johnny, I'm excited now. I did the things you mentioned using diagrams & text I got from this sight (I think. I've been collecting and printing out stuff on 1911s from a few places) The hook is no longer bottoming out in the extractor groove. There was contact on the angled portion of the extractor groove of the brass but there isn't any longer. The MIM extractor was very rough and I smoothed the radii where indicated on the print out of the U.S.G.I Extractor Terms & Dimension printout I have. I feel like the extractor is functioning much better, now.
If the clearance is there in both areas...try taking a little tension off the extractor by straightening it slightly. May be a trial-and-error operation...but that just might nail this one.
I did lessen the tension on the extractor but perhaps not enough. I'll try some more rounds tomorrow if the weather cooperates.
One other thing...At the bottom of the wall...where the rim first touches the extractor as it feeds...Is there a slight bevel there? It helps the rim cam the extractor open, and smooths out the feeding in many guns.
Yes, there is a nice, smooth bevel there, now.

Also, on both of my 1911s, the extractor does clock a bit. It's much worse on the Champion. (The extractor that was on the gun when I sent it in for the 10 1/2 lb. trigger pull, malfunctioning plunger for the safety and feeding problems was replaced with one that was actually looser fore and aft and clocked more than the original extractor.) I plan on ordering two, OS firing pin stops from EGW and doing the small radius job. I'm hoping this will eliminate the clocking problem.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Bob...The extractor probably isn't MIM. The only major manufacturer that I know of who has ever used MIM extractors is Colt...oddly enough. They got weaned from that in about a year.

I hope you didn't jump the gun and cut the hook too short to get clearance. From the rim tensioning wall to the tip of the hook should be a MINIMUM of .032 inch...and even that won't work well on many guns. .035-.036 inch is better. Anything over .038, and you run the risk of interference with the bottom of the case groove.

[WyoBob]

Bob...The extractor probably isn't MIM.

The surface was so ruff and "porous" looking, I assumed it was MIM. Perhaps I was seeing "as cast" with no work done when it came out of the mold? Anyway, it was pretty nasty looking. (I should hang up my "Optivisor" then things would look much better, but I wouldn't be able see anything!
I hope you didn't jump the gun and cut the hook too short to get clearance. From the rim tensioning wall to the tip of the hook should be a MINIMUM of .032 inch...and even that won't work well on many guns. .035-.036 inch is better. Anything over .038, and you run the risk of interference with the bottom of the case groove.
I didn't get a measurement on this. The hook was keeping the case rim from fitting up to the tensioning wall. I polished just barely and I think the hook is probably still barely touching the extractor groove. I held it up to a strong light and it looked like it was touching both the hook and tensioning wall. I put the gun back together and thought I'd shoot a few boxes trough it before I'd attempt any more work on the extractor. I learned long ago about the "cut it twice and it was still too short" thing ;)

Thanks, Bob

[John]

The barrel ramp/throat is NOT an extension of the feedramp...nor is it a bullet guide. It's a clearance.

I think that this should be printed somewhere in every 1911 manual, in huge bold letters. it can save lots of barrels from the monster dremel.

[David Rose]

Do Dremel jocks read manuals??? :eek: Just kidding. I use a foot control variable speed Foredom when needed.

David

I think that this should be printed somewhere in every 1911 manual, in huge bold letters. it can save lots of barrels from the monster dremel.

[1911Tuner]

The surface was so ruff and "porous" looking, I assumed it was MIM.

Hmmm. Shouldn't be a casting, either. If it is, you may see a parting line somewhere.
I don't know of any cast extractors since the days of Thompson Auto Ordnance.

Anyway...

I polished just barely and I think the hook is probably still barely touching the extractor groove.

Ah! Good! A man who proceeds with caution.

It shouldn't touch anything except the rim. If the hook is still bottoming out in the groove, it'll cause problems.

John! :D

Polishing the barrel ramp isn't a bad thing to do. Some minor feed issues can be helped by doing it if the bullet nose is bumping it just below the corner, or if the corner is too sharp. It's the feed ramp in the frame that gets funkified by Dremel Jocks...but as long as the top corner isn't radiused, polishing the feed ramp often smooths the feeding quite a bit in guns with slightly too-steep ramps.

If all ramp geometry is correct...frame and barrel...it's not necessary, though it doesn't hurt anything as long as it's done properly. It can cause loss of controlled feed when the feed ramp is a bit too shallow.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The extractor is, at least in part, a spring. There are good things to make springs out of, and bad things. Aluminum is not a good thing to make a spring out of. Castings and powdered metal are also not a real good way to make a spring. Even if you machine the part, there are "good" steels and "bad" steels to use for spring performance.

Most of the body of the extractor touches nothing else in the pistol. You can machine 90% of the thing pretty rough and still have it work fine.

That's not to say that you *should* machine one roughly, or that nobody ever made one out of the wrong "stuff". The ones I have seen all seem to be machined under magnification. I'm blind enough that I have to use a magnifier to see what's going on with the "hook" end..... :D

Bob

[WyoBob]

Well, however the extrator is made for SA, it has a very rough surface in the hook area. But, mine are now polished. I don't know if it will work any better but it makes me feel better ;)

Thanks, WyoBob

[toolman]

Could the remaining few machining marks on the breech face be adding just enough friction as the rim slides up the breech face cause trouble?

[WyoBob]

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me with my "3 point jam" problem. Both my Springfield 5" and Champion LW Loaded are now running 100%. The extractor tuning, EGW fps, removing "clocking" and a change of bullet design have both my 1911s running 100%.

I now have several hundred rounds through both pistols using the 200gr SWC bullets out of my new Lyman, 4 cavity mold (452630) and performance has been great! This bullet is very accurate in my 5" (.48" from a bench at 7 yards. Will be testing at 15 yards, next). The Lyman loads feed smoother than the Lee loads. I can actually feel and hear the difference. I still have some of the Lee loads and have swithed back and forth. All of the tips I received helped the Lee loads feed better but I'd still have a FTF every 8-10 mags with the Lee. The Lyman bullets are 100%.

I'm really enjoying my 1911s now and am looking forward to shooting them at our steel plate shoots. I'm really tickled. The gunsmithing forum is the first forum I visit every day.

Thanks, WyoBob

[pa_guns]

Hi

Glad to hear things have improved. I suspect that if you keep with the tuning process you will get the Lee's to feed ok as well.

Bob

[WyoBob]

Hi

Glad to hear things have improved. I suspect that if you keep with the tuning process you will get the Lee's to feed ok as well.

Bob

Too late on the Lee's. Both molds went bye-bye. I took the "easy" way out :)

The Lyman mold is a joy to cast with. All four cavities drop identical diameter bullets, the cavities are very well finished and it's been great casting with this mold (even though it's heavier by far than the aluminum Lee). The bullets drop right out, something the Lee's won't do without a little "work".

The Lee molds are a pretty good value but the cavity dimensions can vary quite a bit.

Thanks, WyoBob

[David Rose]

You've found some of the advages to Lyman's (or other steel) moulds. The cavities may be varying, but one thing I've noticed on them is that the aluminum expands the cavity considerably as it heats up.

On a 45 cal. bullet I use to throw for an Old Army, at the low temp where the mould would throw unblemmed bullets, to the other extreme just before they frosted, the diameters could vary around 0.003". A very consistent movement at just the right temp would produce good bullets, but I seldom work that way.

Also, with proper care, the steel moulds will last many times longer than the aluminum ones (that I've used).

David

[pa_guns]

Hi

Steel holds the heat a *lot* better than aluminum.

Bob

[WyoBob]

You've found some of the advages to Lyman's (or other steel) moulds. The cavities may be varying, but one thing I've noticed on them is that the aluminum expands the cavity considerably as it heats up.

Also, with proper care, the steel moulds will last many times longer than the aluminum ones (that I've used).

David

I'd forgotten how nice the Lyman molds work. I have a 429421 (250 gr. Keith 44 cal. bullet) mold I've owned for 35+ years. I sold my old flat top and am without a 44 mag. I guess I should remedy that! I dry fired a 44 mag. Ruger Alaskan a couple of days ago. Nice gun. I don't have much need for something like that but that hasn't stopped me yet :)

WyoBob

[David Rose]

Coming from someone in the business, don't let need stop you! :D

I first started reloading for handguns in about 1968. I had a good commercial source for cast bullets then and did not cast. When I did cast it was with a couple of old worn Lyman moulds with no idea how to adjust them. Then I got the Lee mould that was for the bullet I thought I wanted. By then, I had decided that casting bullets was an art. Timing had to be precision. Then a customer convinced me that he could do nothing artistic but he could churn out perfect bullets with only a few startup culls... with a Lyman. He was right.

David