US Army Training In The Old Days

[Bacon]

We've all seen the pictures and/or film of WWII era Army training showing GI's firing the .45ACP one-handed. I had wondered about this for a long time. So, when I was up at my Fathers (WWII Pacific Theater, Korea, Vietnam) showing him my latest acquisition, I asked him about it. He said it was to keep one hand free to hold something else, such as a knife. Would like to know any more info you all might have.

[Chuck S]

... or the reins of the horse depending on just how "old Army" you happen to be!

-- Chuck

[Hawkmoon]

I served during Vietnam -- mid-60s. I wasn't issued a 1911 as a duty weapon ... depending on station, I was assigned either an M-14, M-1 carbine, or M-16 ... but I was on a competition shooting team for awhile, and we fired the 1911 one-handed (duelist style).

[gottripletsNC]

war story maybe, or old wive's tale, but it was explained to me that most people are right handed, therefore it was designed as a right handed weapon, which is why it does not have an ambi safety much less a left handed slide stop or mag release, and was designed to be shot with the right hand while the left hand held the reigns of the horse you happened to be riding.

So yes according to the tale I was told, you do shoot it one handed, or at least they trained that way

[Adjutant]

In the USAF in the early 1960s we used the 1911A-1. The horses were long gone but you would not know it by the way we trained. We not only fired one-handed, Camp Perry style, but we stood almost shoulder to shoulder and did not use hearing protection. The trigger pulls were almost as heavy as a small SUV but it was the lack of hearing protection that really made everyone’s scores so dismal. Later in the mid 1960s we went to the Smith & Wesson Model 15, Combat Masterpiece in .38 Special and fired two-handed. With arms extended the shooting hand was placed in the palm of the off hand. Not exactly Weaver but it certainly improved scores. The old-time sergeants sneered at the technique and derisively referred to it as tea cup and saucer. But then, these old boys could shoot the eyeball out of a gnat at 25 yards one-handed

[WINTERS]

When I was in th Marine Corps, we didn't get Barettas where I was stationed until late in 93 or 94 so I always carried a 1911.
We always get stuff late or stuff handed down to us it seems, but we make it work.

I would agree that back in the old days the one-handed stance was a matter of keeping one hand available to do stuff with, holding reigns, a K-Bar, whatever.

I do a lot of one hand and off-hand shooting simply because you never know what might happen, say something goes down and you can't use both hands, you better be prepaired.

As an aside, I was looking through a recent issue of Leatherneck (a Marine Corps oriented publication) a month or so back and they did an article on the military shooting matches, they are still done one-handed and at 50 yards to boot.

[Adjutant]

Them Gyrenes do know how to shoot. You gotta love ‘em.
When I was flying over Nam in the latter part of the war and there was a lot of racial tension and discipline was breaking down in the Army I always hoped if I went down and the USAF PJs could not get in with a chopper it would be US Marines that came to get me.

[Bacon]

My Brother was a doorgunner with the 1/7 Air Cav. (Sister unit of the one portrayed in Apocolypse Now) He worked with Special Forces alot. Even went into Cambodia at night to rescue those guys. Would you have refused his help?

My Father , an Army Combat Engineer in the Pacific went in at night and cleared beaches for the Marines. The guys that were really there know who was first on the beaches on many of those islands. It wasn't the Marines.

If you want to believe the Marine Corp propaganda, go ahead. Me thinks you paint the Army with a very wide brush. And it grows very tiresome.

[Adjutant]

Bacon,

You have my apology if I offended you. During my career I worked with Army SF and airborne and have nothing but the profoundest respect for them as well as the US Army in general. Indeed, I respect and honor anyone who willing served his or her country. Yes I would have been delighted to know Army SF forces were coming to get me out. Heck I would have been tickled to see any American if they were armed. However, there were a lot of discipline problems during the Viet Nam War thanks to the Anti-American left. Not only the Army but the USAF and the Navy had problems as well. You may or may not have read that for the first time in its proud history the US Navy had a mutiny on a warship on the high seas. The USAF had its share also but the one service that held it together and kept everyone focused on the color of the uniform rather than the color of ones skin better than the others was the Marines. Certainly, part of this was due to the Corp being smaller, more cohesive, and a volunteer group. The Army was plagued with hippy conscripts who did not want to serve their country but rather wanted everything handed to them on a silver platter. But this is not the entire reason for the Marines maintaining discipline. Even the aforementioned would not have helped if it weren’t for the Marine’s Esprit de Corps and rigorous training. I assure you I am not an apologist for the Marines and readily enter into the inter-service joshing that is part of life for the professional soldier. However, we must give credit where credit is due. Even to the Marines.
Bacon, I did not mean to besmirch the reputation of the US Army or anyone else. My remarks were not intended to do so but if I expressed myself rather poorly and gave that impression I, again, apologize most sincerely.

Bill

[Bacon]

Hi Bill,
No problem. I could have chosen my words a little better also.

As an engineer in the US Merchant Marine for the last 35 years I've served on government owned or contracted ships. From a troop ship pulling ROK Army out of Vietnam to a container ship suppling our guys in Desert Storm. And 3 ammo ships in between. As a civilian I am not considered a Veteran. However, I do know the sick feeling of working in the engine room of a big fat target in a war zone. People can bad-mouth the Merchant Marine all they want & it doesn't bother me. I know where my heart is and feel privileged to help out our folks in uniform. However, I get defensive about the fine people who have quietly served and died while wearing the uniform of the US Army. Those people are my heroes.

Sorry if I over-reacted and Thank You for your service.

Steve

[Adjutant]

Thanks Steve,

An FYI. My uncle served in the Navy in WWII on LSTs (Large slow target). Long after the war someone criticized the Merchant Marine in his presence. Bad Move. They never did that again. If it weren’t for the Merchant Marine we would have lost the Battle of the Atlantic and WWII would have turned out a great deal differently. Earlier I alluded to the fact that the color of ones uniform is more important than the color of ones skin. True, but when the shrapnel flies the only color that matters is red. It is unfortunate that so little appreciation is extended to the brave Merchant Mariners who shed their blood to keep this great nation of ours free right along with those in uniform.

I salute you for your service.

Bill

[DonS]

Back in the WW2 era, the style of combat shooting developed by Fairbain was employed by some US military units; I recall pictures of Marines (including Raiders and none other than Jeff Cooper) doing the "combat squat":

1) Facing target
2) slightly squating
3) point firing using one hand
4) using non-shooting hand as shield across upper chest (not always done)

The idea was to be fast up close, and the theory was that one hand was faster than two.

This style of shooting was also popular with police during the '50s and '60s.

[MontanaMike]

When I went through Army training in 1968, we were still taught to shoot the 1911-A1 with one hand. I don't recall a reason being given, but my dad was a competative pistol shooter and all the 50-foot competition with small bore and big bore bullseye shooting was with one hand in my dad's matches. I don't recall seeing anyone use two hands to hold a 1911 or any other pistol until after I got out of training and in the real world where a two-handed grip was instinctive. I do remember the 1911's we used in training would group about 12-15 inches at 50 feet, if you were lucky, and it probably did not matter if you used one hand, both hands, or a rest. However, our range NCO could light kitchen matches with his personal 1911 at 50 feet using one hand.

MontanaMike

[santa]

Hello all,

While in the Navy in the 80's, we were taught the one-handed style also.

[Doran]

Something like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/Doran/coltad-marinesshootingtargets1943style-withMGphoto.jpg

[Edward]

My training in USMC was in '62, and that was one-handed. Never got to shoot a 1911 as much as I wanted to, which I regretted then and now. Trying to make up for it now, if I can keep on affording the ammo. But it is two-handed now. Would have gladly traded my BAR time in on a 1911 :)

[horse 91-A1]

I don't remember how many times I was issued a M1911 in the navy or Vietnam, during the '70s LEO was .357mag training and weekend warrior MP in the 80s was still M1911. I remember training single handed and two handed - just don't remember when. The easier part to remember is shotgun Remington/Ithaca, M-14, M16, whatever the grenade launchers were called, and .50 cal were two hands. Shot the M-60 a little in peace time as a MP, but the .50cal was one of those "Git er dun" Browning designs. :D

Adios,
Bob

[bobbarrios]

Carried a 1911 45 in the Army in W. Germany in early seventies. I was an E-4. Unusual for an EM to be issued a 45 but my duty required the ability to bring a weapon to bear in close quarters. We were taught to shoot one - handed but we practiced with the two - handed grip.

Bob

[littledoc]

The two handed grip started to become popular in the US during the late '60's because of the old "Leather Slap" competitions started by most notably Jeff Cooper, and Jack Weaver (Weaver Stance). From these old matches in Big Bear, CA IPSC was born. And the two handed Weaver stance has developed into the world standard. The Isoceles stance is gaining some favor, mostly to keep ones body armor square with the threat.

Unfortunately one handed shooting isn't taught much anymore. It would be nice to always be able to keep two hands on a pistol. And shooting on the move is now considered "advanced."

[ceg]

I was on my squadron's pistol team in 1966 and we competed against the Air Force, Army, Marine and the Naval base teams. The Colts were standard issue, no customs, some were tight and others rattled when you looked at them. Shooting was done using one hand only.

[Spindly61]

They are still shooting one handed and at 50 yards in military matches. I have the pleasure to shoot alongside these guys at the local outdoor range. I was talking to one of the young gentlemen and it's well regulated. Theres rules about what grips he can use, pretty much double diamond wood only.He was shooting a built up Springfield that you couldn't cycle by hand.
I guess it is link pin lockup?? You had to push the muzzle against something to break it free. Interesting but not my cup of tea.

[MR. Gray]

my father was Army SF in vietnam. he was drafted in 1966. He went to folk polk for ibasic/nfantry school, but he wanted to be in communications. so he went to infantry school and right near grad. he asked about communications because, he had a degree in electronics. so they sent him to germany(communications) were he then went airborne. shortly after he got orders to go ot vietnam. after a few weeks there, he herd they needed so communications people for Special Forces quick and said that they mite get to come back to the USA(Fort Bragg). Nope they sent him to a base in the phillipines for SF training. He said it was a very fast/ crash course type training, he made It. they sent him back to vietnam. almost 2 years later he got sent home for some bad injurys( enemy mortor)

anyways he said in basic he got a M14. when he got to vietnam they gave him a m16. and after he went SF he got to use mostly the m4a1, and some times ak47and thats when he got a sidearm. the handguns he said he mostly carryed was the 1911, but he did use a .38 revolver, browing hi power, and his favorite a ruger .22 supressed. He said they didnt really teach them much on how to shoot the handguns. they just gave them the guns and made them shoot a few times at trees, one handed style. Funny cause when we go shooting he still shoots like that. so if your at a texas shooting range and you see a old guy in his 60's shooting( a 1911 or ruger .22) one handed and stickout/biting his tonge its most likely its my father. :)

[MR. Gray]

oh yeah, i never got pistol army trainning. just m16a2 at benning. :) ive already forgot what they called.

and i talked to my dad again, he also said some thing about a blooper/m79.
He kinda talks about the guns he used but thats it.

[ms3820]

When I qualified for pistol as an MP in the Army, I remember shooting one handed - strong right hand and then a smaller percentage of shots weak hand. 1979- 1982. I can't remember the distance or how many shots.

[Hawkmoon]

However, there were a lot of discipline problems during the Viet Nam War thanks to the Anti-American left.
Were you Army or Air Force? And are you speaking from first-hand experience, or passing along rumours?

I was U.S. Army in Vietnam in the late '60s. Not many of us were especially happy to be there, but I do not recall any "discipline problems thanks to the Anti-American left," nor do I recall any racial tensions of any particular vehemence.

[Adjutant]

Were you Army or Air Force? And are you speaking from first-hand experience, or passing along rumours?

I was U.S. Army in Vietnam in the late '60s. Not many of us were especially happy to be there, but I do not recall any "discipline problems thanks to the Anti-American left," nor do I recall any racial tensions of any particular vehemence.
Hi Hawkmoon,



I was USAF and, other than not being fragged myself, I am speaking from personal knowledge. I began flying into Viet Nam in 1961 and continued to do so until 1967. From that point until the end of the war, I was in staff positions which included a headquarters for a number of in-country squadrons and detachments which involved rather frequent dialogue with the commanders. Beginning at about that time, I was an early volunteer in the Equal Opportunity and Treatment Program (EOT). This along with a tour in Special Ops granted me access to information not readily available to the public. The problem was not confined to in-country but affected bases all over and it was not as acute in the early stages but became most pronounced toward the end of the war, stateside and in-country.

All the best.



Bill

[dickmartin]

My father served on active duty in the U. S. Army, 1927-1957. When he first started teaching me to use a pistol (a .22 semiauto first; the M1911 came later) he taught the one-handed "offhand" position.

I have read from some sources that the Army's original purpose of one-handed shooting was to leave the other hand free to hold the horse's reins.

[TonyW]

According to Webster, "a pistol is a small firearm made to held and fired with one hand". All this 2-handed stuff is very recent. Guess it helps those who can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand. Back when I first started competition shooting (civilian - before my military career) in the mid-50's, no one would have ever dreamed of firing with 2 hands. I take that back - sometimes we taught girlfriends to start off using 2 hands. :D

[XLRRP]

Adjutant: I was a LRRP (long-range recon patrol) in nam, 67-68. It still warms my heart to remember the sound of that Vulcan gatling gun roar when you guys arrived. I sometimes used a .45 on guard when I was out on a mission. Since a team normally consisted of about five men, there would only be one man on guard at a time at night. I held the .45 in my hand with a round chambered, hammer cocked, and the safety off. The reason I did that was that I figured that if a **** got up behind me, I wouldn't have time to swing around my 16.

By the way, in the last couple years of the war, the Marines DID draft. I believe it is the only time in the history of the Marines that they had to resort to the draft. The guys who had been drafted would show up at the induction center and some of them would be randomly "volunteered" for the Marines.

Salute!

[XLRRP]

I see that I just got a "warning" for using inappropriate language to describe the enemy I fought. I guess the concept of free speech doesn't apply here. Funny...I thought that was what I was fighting for.

[XLRRP]

After a few minutes of quiet, angry reflection, I've decided that I don't really want to be a member of a forum where "political correctness" is mandatory. To the owners of this website, I offer the one-finger LRRP salute.

[Adjutant]

Adjutant: I was a LRRP (long-range recon patrol) in nam, 67-68. It still warms my heart to remember the sound of that Vulcan gatling gun roar when you guys arrived. I sometimes used a .45 on guard when I was out on a mission. Since a team normally consisted of about five men, there would only be one man on guard at a time at night. I held the .45 in my hand with a round chambered, hammer cocked, and the safety off. The reason I did that was that I figured that if a **** got up behind me, I wouldn't have time to swing around my 16.

By the way, in the last couple years of the war, the Marines DID draft. I believe it is the only time in the history of the Marines that they had to resort to the draft. The guys who had been drafted would show up at the induction center and some of them would be randomly "volunteered" for the Marines.

Salute!
LRRP,

I salute you. You guys had guts to spare. I wasn't on Puffs but I had friends who were. Even so, the thought of who would come looking for me if I got shot down was always in the back of my mind. Knowing it was you LRRP types looking for me would have been most comforting.

May I add, before you get flamed by someone hasn’t been there, you demonstrated considerable savvy carrying your .45 as you did while on guard duty. The ordinary firearm safety rues don’t always apply in combat. In fact, in our own Apache Wars of the nineteenth century in New Mexico and Arizona, no officer or trooper would venture outside their quarters after dark except with a cocked pistol.


All the best and my deepest appreciation for your service, brother.

Bill

[Chessbum]

In 68 I think it was I enlisted in the Air Force and for skin rash on my foot I flunked my physical??? I do remember while going through the physical that they lined us enlisted up on one side and those that where drafted on the other. We then watched as someone went down the line pointing to each draftie saying Army, Navy, Marines, Army Navy, Marines... When I got to the end of the physical they told me I could not go and should have left at the beginning of the physical since I had flunked it. He asked me didn't they tell you you where 4F. I said yea but I thought he was joking so I kept going to the next exam. A few years later they listed me as 1-Y and I still could not believe that I failed my physical in the good shape I was in back then. My deepest appreciation to all you Viet Nam Vets goes to all of you who went in my place and if I could join now at 57 I would as I feel I owe you all for what you did.