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cameroni
23rd September 2007, 14:23
George Washington chose the site for the original Springfield Armory.

Geneseo,Illinois is the "headquarters" for this company;but the actual product is not made/built on "American" soil;not NORTH America anyways. If this is misinformation,somebody please educate my stupid self!?

I feel like I've been mislead(like OH sooo many)by the current(since 1968) Springfield Armory's toutings "The First Name in American Firearms","The Oldest Name in American Firearms" etc. Robert Reese did buy the "NAME" I reckon...his sons continuing the business.

It is VERY difficult to find printed material stating just exactly WHERE the current "Springfield Armory"'s guns are made. Wikipedia goes so far as to say "not located near" the original armory.

There's plenty of historical facts on the original Springfield Armory that closed it's doors at the very height of the Vietnam War in 1968. Almost no info on the current(40 years?) manufacturing site. Curious,no?

One thing for sure,they are not built in Geneseo,Illinois,USA the location written/stamped/rolled on the pistols.

I'm not familiar with any current Sprinfield Armory pistols. Their official website shows ONLY the right-hand side pictures of the pistols...curiouser yet.

Does this not sit well with any other 1911 pitol fans? It does seem to stick in my craw.

As gently as possible,would someone please inform this ignorant redneck just exactly where it is the current Springfield Armory,1911 model pistols ARE built?

Please add any and all pithy comments on the current Springfield Armory.

Flame-guard ON,

mike

Oberleutnant
23rd September 2007, 15:11
Mike,

Current Springfield Armory 1911 type pistols are manufactured by IMBEL in Brazil. Some of their pistols come into the USA as raw forgings and are fitted and finished here. Pistols made in Brazil say so right on the frame: " Made in Brazil-IMBEL." Ones finished here carry the stamp "Springfield Geneseo IL" only and are not marked IMBEL under that.

I understand why you might feel let down by the IMBEL info. I felt a little bit the same way looking at 1911s marked Springfield made outside the US. But, the pistols are well made and function well. They have an outstanding warranty and customer service to back it up. The price points on most models are nice, too. Particularly the couple of more entry level models. There are good and bad stories about Springfield quality out there just as there are about other manufacturers.

Another fact you might find interesting is that the Marines and FBI purchase the current Springfield 1911s.

I'm also sure you're going to get a lot of other comments to your post.

Tom
23rd September 2007, 15:46
Cameroni, it's not unlike today's American car makers. Just because GM and Ford are headquartered in Detroit, Michigan doesn't mean their cars are manufactured there. I know the Taurus/Sable were made in Atlanta. My '97 Malibu was make in Oklahoma or all places. And let's not forget the Pontiac Le Mans from the late '80s - totally made and imported from Korea. If I recall, neither Pontiac nor GM went way out of their way to advertise that fact.

And here's a link on Springfield's site that talks about the "missing" history:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/aboutus.php


Their official website shows ONLY the right-hand side pictures of the pistols...curiouser yet.

Why? Most manufactures only show the right-hand side because that shows off the ejection port. It's not that Springfield is hiding anything on the left-hand side.

1911Tuner
23rd September 2007, 17:18
The original Springfield Arsenal in Springfield, Massachusetts and today's Springfield Armory in Geneseo, Illinois have only (half) a name in common, and aren't connected in any other way.

cameroni
23rd September 2007, 17:21
Mike,

Current Springfield Armory 1911 type pistols are manufactured by IMBEL in Brazil. Some of their pistols come into the USA as raw forgings and are fitted and finished here. Pistols made in Brazil say so right on the frame: " Made in Brazil-IMBEL." Ones finished here carry the stamp "Springfield Geneseo IL" only and are not marked IMBEL under that.

I understand why you might feel let down by the IMBEL info. I felt a little bit the same way looking at 1911s marked Springfield made outside the US. But, the pistols are well made and function well. They have an outstanding warranty and customer service to back it up. The price points on most models are nice, too. Particularly the couple of more entry level models. There are good and bad stories about Springfield quality out there just as there are about other manufacturers.

Another fact you might find interesting is that the Marines and FBI purchase the current Springfield 1911s.

I'm also sure you're going to get a lot of other comments to your post.

So some of the SA pistols come into the USA as "raw forgings" to be "fitted and finished" here in USA? Any other 1911 pistol-making companies do that? I just want to know.

I am in NO WAY questioning the quality of product,warranty,arguable "price points"nor customer service. Just the BLATANT DECEPTION.

Whatever the military and FBI do is not always in the best interest of our troops.

Oberleutnant,I think you are wrong. I do not expect a lot of comments on this post(I hope I am wrong). Not many folks like admitting to being duped.

Come on,"Springfield Armory" owners;tell it like it is. Please stick to the deceptive "made in USA" -type smoke&mirrors. I know these are good firearms.

Tom,I understand the post-NAFTA,global economy analogies regarding automobiles;but let's stick to firearms in general;and M1911s in particular. The link you offered gave me no insight into any "missing" history. Why the heck would any of it be "missing"?

I like ejection ports as much as the next guy;but,please....let's see the whole gun,eh? That is LAME.

I've heard more "bad stories" about Colt,S&W,and Kimber than SA;that is not the subject I aim to address. Deceptive advertising is.


mike

Conqueror
23rd September 2007, 17:25
Why do you call it "BLATANT DECEPTION" if the Brazil-finished pistols are marked "MADE IN BRAZIL-IMBEL" on the side of the frame? A pistol made in the US with a few foreign parts is still a US-made pistol, just like a Ford is still an American truck even if it has a Sony sound system from Japan in it.

Tom
23rd September 2007, 17:38
Any other 1911 pistol-making companies do that? I just want to know.
Perhaps. Other simply import them from other countries without ANY finish work being done in the U.S.


Tom,I understand the post-NAFTA,global economy analogies regarding automobiles;but let's stick to firearms in general;and M1911s in particular.
Why not extend the analogy to other products "made" by American companies. I, for one, thought the Pontiac Le Mans was an excellent analogy, having had a friend in 1990 who owned one and was surprised to find out it was 100% Korean made (by Kia if I am not mistaken).

I don't think it is so much as deception on Springfield's part. Springfield doesn't hide the fact that their slides and frames are made for them by IMBEL, or that their lower-end pistols like the G.I. and Mil-Spec are 100% made in Brazil; they just choose not to advertise it.

While today's Springfield Armory may only have the name in common with the age-old company from the Revolution, it still is a good, reputable company which makes a fine product and, more importantly, stand behind their product - locally, regardless of where it was ultimately assembled. You're not having to send your gun to Brazil if it needs work!

Springfield is not the first American company to utilize parts and labor outside our borders. And Springfield isn't the first arms company to utilize Brazilian manufacturing. Just ask Taurus (and Beretta before them!). And IMBEL isn't some flight-by-night outfit either.

I don't know why you're on your soapbox about Springfield's "deceptive advertising", Cameroni. Again, I don't think it is a matter of outright deception as it is just no need to state their frames and slides come from Brazil.

To use another business analogy, when Pepsi "came clean" about their Evian brand of bottled water being nothing more than filtered tap water, they publicly asked that
Coca-Cola do the same thing with their Desani brand. Coke's answer: "Why?"

Hawkmoon
23rd September 2007, 17:55
I've heard more "bad stories" about Colt,S&W,and Kimber than SA;that is not the subject I aim to address. Deceptive advertising is.
"Deceptive" and "advertising" sort of go hand in hand, IMHO. I think the real gripe here should be with the U.S. government having sold the rights to the name. They did the same thing with the Rock Island name, which is how we have Armscor pistols being sold in the U.S. under that moniker.

How about Henry? They make a nifty little .22 lever action carbine. But their advertising all *suggests* that it is either the same company that made the original Henry rifle over 100 years ago, or a direct descendant thereof. In fact, there never was a "Henry Arms Company" back then. The original Henry was made by the company that later became Winchester, which then became part of Olin Chemical, which still owns the name. So any claim to be related to the original Henry is bogus. Are you equally outraged by that deception? You should be.

Don't get me wrong ... I loath deceptive advertising as much as anyone, and more than most. But it's a fact of life.

AKsRule
23rd September 2007, 18:04
Oberleutnant,I think you are wrong. I do not expect a lot of comments on this post(I hope I am wrong). Not many folks like admitting to being duped.

Come on,"Springfield Armory" owners;tell it like it is. Please stick to the deceptive "made in USA" -type smoke&mirrors. I know these are good firearms.
mike

Sorry to disappoint , but I do a HUGE amount of research on every firearm I buy.

I knew about Imbel before I bought my SA GI Champ. :)

I'm still upset about the Naugahide thing though.......... :D

Frank
23rd September 2007, 18:13
I guess I've never felt "deceived" by Springfield's marketing because it's always seemed to be pretty common knowledge that their 1911s (or in some cases the frames) are made in Brazil. They may not make a point of it, but it's no great secret either.

DVC

Joni Lynn
23rd September 2007, 18:17
Most companies won't make much mention of how much of the product is made from imported parts. The class 8 trucks you see on the road are foreign owned (which is ok) and you'd be surprised to find out how much of them is from various countries. I didn't know that until I worked class 8 trucks parts sales for a dealer.
SA has always been imported to some degree, either fully finished or the basics, ditto for the P9 when they were importing them from Italy.
They're still a good 1911 for the money.

Cary Ford
23rd September 2007, 19:17
William Shakespeare (who was not made in the US, either) once wrote something to the effect that "A rose is a rose by any other name."

A thing is what it is. The SA Professional and TRP Operators that I own are well-made, highly functioning, quality 1911's. Whether they have "Genesco, IL" or "Bonzo the Clown" stamped on their slides makes no difference...

They ARE what they are.

Whatever else one puts on the name, or what is stamped on the slide, beyond a finger pointing to what the thing actually is, or what one can expect the thing to be, is simply emotion, desire wrapped up in association to myth, fairy-tale, wish fulfillment.. whatever.

In other words, everyting else is NOT REAL.

And that "not real" stuff works on some people to a very high degree and becomes the basis for how they react to something that IS real...

That's why the art and science of advertising is what IT is.

So, as long as my SA's remain what THEY are, and continue to DO what they do, repeatedly and without malfunction, I don't care where they're made, fitted, formed, sold, fondled, what stories are told about them, what I picture in my mind's eye when I read words like "Genesco, IL" or "Brazil" or whether or not, in this day and age, "it takes a village" to make them...

I only care that they are awesome pistols.

And they ARE.

Sandhills Writer
23rd September 2007, 21:52
:nono: Might want to check where their M-1A rifles are made. Another top quality product. The first years of manufacture used all GI parts except receiver and barrel, now they manufacure a lot of parts that cannot be found on the surplus market.
Lets see, if a US printer prints a book on paper not manufactered in the US, what do you consider that book???

cameroni
23rd September 2007, 21:54
I might have guessed that some would see my simple missive on deception in advertising as a slam against the fine firearms of the Springfield;not my intention at ALL. I've never doubted the QUALITY,RELIABILITY,or EXCELLENT CUSTOMER SERVICES of the guns/manufacturer. Ever.

Hawk,I'm not so much "outraged" as disappointed and fearful. Selling the name of our country's very first,most excellent arsenal;not just the "name";but the "history" associated with it...that's just wrong. And seems to be the way,the path, we as a country have taken. God help us.

Am I on a soapbox? Sure,aren't we all who post our personal experiences here and other places where we express our likes and dislikes(I've come to know that NOBODY wants to hear whatever it is "I" don't like.)

I never read the threads under "Springfield" in these hallowed pages;but I did today. There's one current thread under the topic of "IMBEL??" Several responses to that thread confirm the notion that I'm not the only doofus who didn't do the research or look under the stocks or see the foreign country's name under the dust cover before purchasing a Springer!

"I LOVE my country;but when it comes to higher prices/paying more..." well...that is sadder than a one-car funeral. Also an undeniable truth.

mike

Hawkmoon
23rd September 2007, 22:09
Before this thread goes ANY farther, let me remind everyone that this forum does not allow discussion of religion or politics, and secondly that this is an international forum owned by someone who is not in the United States or a citizen thereof. Ergo, nationalistic/jingoistic posts are OUT.

Feel free, however, to continue the discussion regarding truth in advertising.

cameroni
23rd September 2007, 22:13
Before this thread goes ANY farther, let me remind everyone that this forum does not allow discussion of religion or politics, and secondly that this is an international forum owned by someone who is not in the United States or a citizen thereof. Ergo, nationalistic/jingoistic posts are OUT.

Feel free, however, to continue the discussion regarding truth in advertising.

Yes,please.

cameroni
23rd September 2007, 22:16
:nono: Might want to check where their M-1A rifles are made. Another top quality product. The first years of manufacture used all GI parts except receiver and barrel, now they manufacure a lot of parts that cannot be found on the surplus market.
Lets see, if a US printer prints a book on paper not manufactered in the US, what do you consider that book???

Sandhills,I consider that a BOOK that doesn't claim in any form or fashion to be anything but what it is,unlike "Springfield Armory".

mike

Morrisey
23rd September 2007, 22:35
All of SA's 1911 forgings are manufactured in Brazil. I do not consider this a liability of any sort; if you know manufacturing, you know that Brazil is world-class in several areas (handguns included). As for where they are assembled, some are assembled in Brazil, and some are assembled in the USA.

The Brazilian-made pistols will be stamped as such. Another indicator is the serial number prefix. The prefixes indicate the production group that assembled and finished the pistol, and when I bought my Mil-Spec 1911 (which I subsequently had smithed into a 50-yard Bullseye wad gun), the "NM" serial number prefix indicated the American production group.

My smith asked me to get an "NM" prefixed pistol because, in his experience, the fit and finish, and some of the internal components (even though he replaced almost all of them with competition-grade parts) were of better and more consistent quality.

So some SAs are American assembled, and a person more knowledgable than I in the inner workings of handguns believes them to be of better overall quality. But I wouldn't be surprised to see this change in the near future; Imbrel is a good company that makes great products.

Furthermore, SA's custom shop is in Illinois, and they are the people I've contacted (and gotten prompt responses from) whenever I've had questions. I have no problem thinking of them as an American company with an international supply base. And as long as their specs are being followed, quality is the result.

Tom

Hawkmoon
23rd September 2007, 22:44
Sandhills,I consider that a BOOK that doesn't claim in any form or fashion to be anything but what it is,unlike "Springfield Armory".

mike
I suppose to make a proper book analogy to the issue of buying an historical name would be if someone were to start publishing a monthly Reader's Digest-like magazine, called it "Poor Richard's Almanac," and named their printing company The Benjamin Franklin Press. It wouldn't really matter where they bought their paper. For me, the issue would be that they are not really direct successors to either PRA or to Ben Franklin's printing business, because they haven't been continuously printing PRA out of Ben's shop since the day he turned over the keys (and the rights) to them.

Regardless of whether or not you bought the rights to a name, I think the issue is the intellectual validity of claiming (directly, or indirectly) an historical connection or lineage that does not, in fact, exist.

Rich-D
23rd September 2007, 23:21
I recall a news article from the 90's where a city council in a buy American head, refused to approve the purchase of large earth mover with a Japanese brand name. They in fact bought a John Deere paying $50,000 more.

It turns out the Japanese brand equipment was made in the USA and the John Deere was made in Japan.

We are in a global society, the P.C. that you are using may have an American name on it, however part of it, if not all off it came from another country.
The service reps answering phones are located in India. This site emanates from Greece, etc, etc ,etc.

If one has a buy American attitude, The research, engineering, development, warranty, and service of the Springfield line is in USA. Those facts make it an American product.

This thread is much to do about nothing that is important to most of us. And in fact the title of this thread is misleading as Springfield is a company located in the USA.




Rich

Parabellus
24th September 2007, 00:25
Besides loving my Imbel made Springfield M1911-A1 .45 I am a big fan of German pistols past and present. The fact that most PPK pistols are made in the USA by none other than Smith & Wesson has brought a good deal of discussion about the quality or lack thereof in the S&W made PPK line. The fact that both my PP and P1 from the mid 1960s were almost certainly made in France is nowhere marked on either pistol. Only later were they proofed at Ulm, Germany. And how much of my P99 was made and/or assembled at S&W is somewhat of a mystery and only partially solved by the Staghorn and Eagle/N proofs and 'Made in Germany' on the polymer frame.
I have been interested in and buying handguns for less than two years but it didn't take long to learn these facts of multi-national manufacture.
Sure, there is a certain level of disillusionment. It never occurred to me that there had ever been an attempt to deceive the buyer. Guess I'm just a naive newbie. :)

Russell

Longslide
24th September 2007, 02:19
I do not understand what the brew is about where Springfield Armory pistols are made who owns and or sold the name to who.

Sears Tower is owned by a Japanese company - it still is called Sears Tower.
And by the way none of the tentants are moving out.

Rockerfeller Center (Radio City Music Hall) in NY is owned by an off shore company (Japanese I think)- Still called Rockerfeller Center.

We watch TV - made in China - Japan - Korea
We ware clothing - all made off shore
We drive cars made off shore
We burn gasoline that comes from foreign wells
We eat food that is grown in foreign soil
We tell time from a watch made in Japan or China
We drink coffee that is grown somewhere else.

Heck - The computer we use to complain about where Springfield Armory pistols are made - is most likely OEMed from Japan and or China

Why do we care so much about were a 1911 pistol is built or who owns the brand!

Just my two cents

USMC Tanker
24th September 2007, 11:23
I do not understand what the brew is about where Springfield Armory pistols are made who owns and or sold the name to who.

Sears Tower is owned by a Japanese company - it still is called Sears Tower.
And by the way none of the tentants are moving out.

Rockerfeller Center (Radio City Music Hall) in NY is owned by an off shore company (Japanese I think)- Still called Rockerfeller Center.

We watch TV - made in China - Japan - Korea
We ware clothing - all made off shore
We drive cars made off shore
We burn gasoline that comes from foreign wells
We eat food that is grown in foreign soil
We tell time from a watch made in Japan or China
We drink coffee that is grown somewhere else.

Heck - The computer we use to complain about where Springfield Armory pistols are made - is most likely OEMed from Japan and or China

Why do we care so much about were a 1911 pistol is built or who owns the brand!

Just my two cents
Longslide, well said.

JKTCJ7
24th September 2007, 11:26
Seriously, it's time to stop this silly pettiness.

Last time I checked, Illinois was with still with the United States. Not to mention, the entity "Springfield Guns, Inc." that runs/owns Springfield Armory is a Delaware corporation. Delaware was the first state in the newly formed United States in 1787 -- to me, that pretty much qualifies both the State and its corporations as American.

Still have a question? Contact anyone at Springfield in Geneseo and ask them if they're Brazilian. 1-800-680-6866.

headhog
24th September 2007, 12:50
Cameroni feels he is being duped by false advertising from Springfield Armory and that may or may not be. I think by now if there were truly false advertising involved some creative lawyer type would have already been all over them in a legal battle. There are consumer protection laws to guard against misleading and/or outright false advertising.

When any manufacturer markets their product, they always look to highlight the positive aspects and features that will get attention and sell. You will never be told about what a product doesn't do or any less desireable aspect that may turn you off. It's up to us the consumer to look beyond the marketing/advertising/sales hype and find out all the detail, before making our purchase decision.

Personally, I own two very fine Springifield Armory 1911's. I was fully aware of their production operation before hand and my purchase decision was base on my own evaluation - not their marketing.