Can i "blue" a parkerized 1911?

[elijdub]

How's it goin' all?
My question is:
I have a parkerized RIA GI model and the finish is beginning to need some TLC. I'm wondering if it's possible to re-do the finish in "blue" instead of going with the phosphorus(?)/park'd coating?
If so, i'd imagine a 'smith can do it for you, BUT, i wouldn't mind trying it myself.
So:
A) Can a park'd gun be re-blue'd?
B) Does anyone know of a good product to use as a do-it-yourself finish?, and
C) What are the basic steps to blueing a gun...OR...can you direct me to a site/link that discusses this?

Thanks!!!

[paul45]

The parkerization must be removed first, bead blasting is one way. I don't think one can chemically remove park......but I surely am a novice. I know surface prep is a huge step in achieving good results. I turned the slide flats on that Officers from matte to highly polished blue with good ole sandpaper.....from 180 grit ending up at 2000 grit....ending up with the metal smooth as glass. here is a link......
http://www.blindhogg.com/refinishing.html
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/catsearch.aspx?c=719&p=4798

[gottripletsNC]

I asked this very question from the gunsmith at Gander Mountain when I was speaking with him about a shotgun I was sending off, and his reply was that yes, it could be done, but it would require polishing the metal until the park was gone and the metal was smooth. Would cost a substantial amount of money for the work involved.

[ross FL]

Just about any gun can be re finished, are you asking if you can blue over the original finish?

[Dave Berryhill]

You'd need to take it down to bare steel before it is blued. You may be able to get by with just bead blasting and bluing the entire pistol but you'll never know until you remove the existing phosphate. Parkerizing covers up a lot of tool marks and scratches. I've found that when you blast off the factory phosphate finish on many pistols that there are lots of tool marks and scratches underneath that weren't visible before. In order to save labor costs, some of the polishing steps are skipped at the factory since it won't show.

This pistol started out as a parkerized Springfield Armory GI:
http://www.berryhillguns.com/bfp5.jpg
The tool marks that were present would have been visible with a matte blue finish so after I blasted it, it polished everything up to 320 grit emery cloth then blasted it again. This gave me a nice matte finish without any marks showing. Instead of re-blasting the sides of the slide, I polished them to a slightly higher grit before I blued everything. As Paul45 said, the surface prep is the most important part of the refinishing process. Whatever you can see on the surface of the steel prior to bluing will still show after bluing.

Home bluing is a gamble. Some people have had luck with cold bluing products but I only use it for small touch ups.

[1911Tuner]

Well...ummmmm...Well...Actually applying cold blue over a fresh parkerized finish will result in a deep matte black finish, and it's very handsome...at least to my eye. Problem is that it won't last, and you'll have to do it over about once a month if you carry the gun. If it never sees a holster, it'll last longer...but even at that, it won't hold the color forever. Caustic cold bluing also tends to "slick" the parkerizing, so if any brave souls wanna try it...Oxpho-Blue is probably a better choice. I haven't tried Oxpho, so I can't say what the effect will be...so ya might wanna do an inconspicuous test patch first.

For hot bluing...Ya gotta take it down to bare steel, and like Dave said...Parkerizing very often hides a multitude of sins...so be prepared to see some ugly stuff under there.

[Dave Berryhill]

Well...ummmmm...Well...Actually applying cold blue over a fresh parkerized finish will result in a deep matte black finish, and it's very handsome...at least to my eye....
That is true! The phosphate will act like a sponge and soak up the cold blue solution. Like Johnny said, do it on fresh park (before applying any oil) or strip all of the oil from the finish first. Some guns cleaning products are really good at removing cold bluing too.

I've been known to use a blackening agent after parkerizing ;) :
http://www.berryhillguns.com/meusoc2.jpg
It gives a nice dark finish and evens out the variations in color between different parts that you sometimes get when parkerizing.

[1911Tuner]

Berryhill...You do a nice pistole, mah fren. ;)

[emilio]

i've cold blued whole small parts that were parkerized, and it did result in a very black surface. however, it seemed that there was extra surface rust all over the place to card off at the end, and carding took off some of the parkerizing in some of the already thin places. can the cold blue actually weaken parkerizing in certain circumstances?

personally, i prefer parkerizing for "workin' guns" because of the look, matte finish, and durability. you might want to consider a small home parkerizing setup, which can be as simple as some stainless steel pots, a camp stove or hot plate, some wire, and a bottle of parkerizing solution (16oz bottles of Lauer's is pretty cheap from Midway or Brownell's). according to most sources i've heard, you can degrease parkerized parts and dunk them in the solution and it'll just convert the exposed metal. i've only parkerized bare metal, and it was certainly easy enough, but i've not seen the results of park-on-park; it may be advisable to surface prep the exposed metal with 320 grit.

- emilio

[Tom]

Well...Actually applying cold blue over a fresh parkerized finish will result in a deep matte black finish, and it's very handsome.
I think you turned me on to this little trick years ago, which I have used to terrific (though temporary) success on my Parkerized Springfield to hide the little scratches and scrape where parts tend to rub against other parts. I'm not concerned with perfection since I use and carry this gun, so a little "wear-n-tear" isn't a bad thing for me.

[Dave Berryhill]

Berryhill...You do a nice pistole, mah fren. ;)
[Elvis voice]Thankyouverymuch[/Elvis voice]

[elijdub]

O.K., Thanks for the replies gents. This is really a wealth of knowledge here, and i'm not sure which route to take. I really like the look of polished blue steel, like that of Paul's OACP.... BUT, this is a workin' gun and will see a good deal of holster wear (which, alone, is probably not enough to dissuade me from doing it).
I like the idea of doing a serious polish-job and blueing, but am not setup with a bead-blaster, etc. The best i could do is probably working it with a variety of sand-paper/emory cloth.
I'm interested to know more about the blue-over-park technique mentioned by Tuner. I believe you sir said it wouldn't last too long on a gun that sees regular holster use...?..and would begin to show wear after a month-ish.
I'm going to go back and re-read each post before commenting further. I really appreciate all the input! More questions to follow ;)!

Oh, in the event i decide to have it professionally done, does anyone know the rough cost of having a park'd gun (with 80% finish) blasted/sanded and blue'd? Brian, you mentioned you discussed this with the folks at Gander for your shotgun....did they give you an estimate?
Thanks.

[pa_guns]

Hi

There are a lot of people who do blue jobs and their prices range all over the place. There is *always* a disclaimer about "surface prep charged by the hour". The basic blue could run you $150 +/- 50. The surface prep could be anywhere from $50 to $500.

One thing to consider - for the "economy" price you get blue over bead blast. It's kind of a matte blue. If you want a full polished deep blue, count on spending some money on surface prep. They aren't going to know how much until they get into the job. I would be surprised if you got away for much under $350 to do a polished blue.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

I'm interested to know more about the blue-over-park technique mentioned by Tuner.

As Dave mentioned...thoroughly degrease it. I use CRC BrakeClean, and follow it up with denatured alcohol. Heat the part in an oven until it's warm to the touch. Apply yhe bluing chemical liberally. The pastes and cremes are better. Rub lightly with a clean dry cloth. Cotton T-shirt material works. Work it in, and immediately rub it off.
Repeat until the color suites you. If you use a caustic chemical...and all of'em except Oxpho Blue are...Rinse it with clear, cold water, followed by hot water. Dry it in an oven, and then use a fine oil to rub into the surface. The main thing is to stop the bluing process...which is basically rust...and protect it against any further rusting with oil.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Quick stupid check on the denatured alcohol - pour a bit in a *clean* clear glass and let it evaporate. If you get a white film on the glass, find another brand.

Bob

[elijdub]

Hi

There are a lot of people who do blue jobs and their prices range all over the place. There is *always* a disclaimer about "surface prep charged by the hour". The basic blue could run you $150 +/- 50. The surface prep could be anywhere from $50 to $500.

One thing to consider - for the "economy" price you get blue over bead blast. It's kind of a matte blue. If you want a full polished deep blue, count on spending some money on surface prep. They aren't going to know how much until they get into the job. I would be surprised if you got away for much under $350 to do a polished blue.

Bob
Thanks for the info. This clears up some confussion i had about the difference between matte and deep blue. I hadn't realized it was the degree of polish that determined it.
For the cost, for this gun anyway, i'll probably just give the blue-over-park a try. This is my "practice" gun ;).

BTW, thanks for the tip on denatured alcohol!

[elijdub]

Thank you for the info. I have a few follow-up questions:
Apply yhe bluing chemical liberally. The pastes and cremes are better.
Can you recommend a good brand?
Dry it in an oven, and then use a fine oil to rub into the surface. The main thing is to stop the bluing process...which is basically rust...and protect it against any further rusting with oil.
Would you mind elaborating on the qualities you're after with a fine oil? Will something like "Gun Butter" work? I usually use CLP (oil) because i've had good luck with it.

Do you happen to have any pictures of guns you've treated this way?

Thanks again! Much appreciated!

[pa_guns]

Hi

Post bluing oil:

1) it's got to have good anti-oxidation properties.
2) It needs to be fairly thin to get into all the small little places
3) Cheap is good so you can toss it often ...

Five weight motor oil anybody? Spray it off with WD-40 every so often and dunk it back in the oil tank.

Bob

[David Rose]

Tuner, you sure it's not caustic? Here is an excerpt from Brownell's instructions for Oxpho Blue:

12) RINSE GUN THOROUGHLY IN RUNNING WATER, then shake,
air blow or lightly wipe dry. After the blue job has set for a few hours
or overnight, oil with Brownells Water Displacing Oil, Pro-Tek Oil, or
a good, non-exotic gun oil. Do Not use any of the “Exotic Wonder Oils”,
for they cause the same problems with new Oxpho-Blue as they do
with new Oxynate No. 7 blue jobs. [See page 9, #2.] As time passes,
the Oxpho-Blue finish will darken up, seemingly all on its own.

I use to use Oxpho all the time for touchups before the "overall gun" method was accepted. I'm sure I've had it etch the surface.

David

As Dave mentioned...thoroughly degrease it. I use CRC BrakeClean, and follow it up with denatured alcohol. Heat the part in an oven until it's warm to the touch. Apply yhe bluing chemical liberally. The pastes and cremes are better. Rub lightly with a clean dry cloth. Cotton T-shirt material works. Work it in, and immediately rub it off.
Repeat until the color suites you. If you use a caustic chemical...and all of'em except Oxpho Blue are...Rinse it with clear, cold water, followed by hot water. Dry it in an oven, and then use a fine oil to rub into the surface. The main thing is to stop the bluing process...which is basically rust...and protect it against any further rusting with oil.

[1911Tuner]

David...If it is, it's not to the same degree as other cold blues. I don't have the spot rust problem woth Oxpho as with 4340 creme. I still rinse and use the same precautions...but I've never had an "after-rust" with it.

[elijdub]

I think you turned me on to this little trick years ago, which I have used to terrific (though temporary) success on my Parkerized Springfield to hide the little scratches and scrape where parts tend to rub against other parts. I'm not concerned with perfection since I use and carry this gun, so a little "wear-n-tear" isn't a bad thing for me.
Tom, Do you have any pics of your SA? I'd really like to see what the finish look is. Also, how often have you had to re-do it?

[elijdub]

In trying to determine the best approach here, i have a few questions about both techniques:

1) A cold-blue (after having sanded/blasted the remaining "park"), if done right, is a final and complete finish, and will last a while (CC notwithstanding)? I gather that a "hot-blue" is the method employed by the manufacturer..?..and that it will last longer?

2) On a different topic with the blue-over-park technique, do you oil the finish more often than you would a run-'o-the-mill blue gun?....Does the "working in the oil" step, after the part has been dried, effectively negate the tendency towards rust?

Thanks!

[twin oaks]

Speaking of the blueing vs. Parkerization, my Colt '91A1 has a finish that I can't place. I've brought it up before, and was told that Colt used a Park finish in early runs, then later switched to a matte blue. My slide is very matte- really a flat finish, and if carried in the wrong IWB, I'll get 'instant' rust if it contacts sweat. A light oil takes it right off, but within a day or so, the oil is completely absorbed, and the finish looks dry again. I'm using a light oil, not WD-40 which evaporates. Any opinions as to whether I've got the park'd or the blued finish would be appreciated.
The frame doesn't have this problem, and in fact looks quite a bit 'smoother' in its overall finish.

[pa_guns]

In trying to determine the best approach here, i have a few questions about both techniques:


Hi

Bluing with a solution of salts at high temperature is what most manufacturers use to blue a pistol. It's not rocket science to do the process, it's just messy (rust on everything in sight). The chemicals are not something you can flush down the drain, or send through the mail. The resulting finish is more durable on most steel than cold blue.

From what I am hearing here, blue over Park is even less durable than straight cold blue. Of course I've been confused before ... :D :D

Bob

[Dave Berryhill]

In trying to determine the best approach here, i have a few questions about both techniques:

1) A cold-blue (after having sanded/blasted the remaining "park"), if done right, is a final and complete finish, and will last a while (CC notwithstanding)? I gather that a "hot-blue" is the method employed by the manufacturer..?..and that it will last longer?
The bluing that is done now by most manufacturers and professional refinishers is industrial black oxide. It is essentially a sodium hydroxide (lye) solution run at about 285 degrees F. The black oxide molecule that forms on the surface of the steel is similar to common "rust" that forms on steel. It is more protective and wears better than cold bluing. It's also a messy, nasty operation. If there was a simple liquid that you could wipe on the steel and get the same quality finish as black oxide, everyone would use it and get rid of their bluing tanks!

2) On a different topic with the blue-over-park technique, do you oil the finish more often than you would a run-'o-the-mill blue gun?....Does the "working in the oil" step, after the part has been dried, effectively negate the tendency towards rust?
Parkerizing (manganese phosphate or zinc phosphate) is like a sponge and will hold a lot more oil than a matte blue surface will. This tends to make it more resistant to rust than bluing.

Whether I'm touching up with cold blue or refinishing with black oxide, once the parts are rinsed and dried I keep them wet with light mineral oil for 12 to 24 hours to let the finish "cure," wipe them off and apply whatever gun oil is handy for anti-rust protection (usually it's CLP since I bought a few quarts of some mil surplus stuff a while back).

Once I had nothing better to do so I read Brownells' instructions about not using anti-rust oil after applying cold blue (see the earlier post). In the past I have had cold blue wipe right off the next day after letting it sit overnight with CLP on it. I switched to mineral oil and my success rate with cold blue is much better so I tend to believe those instructions. If you go to the drug store, you'll usually find it with the laxatives and fiber supplements. It's the same thing as baby oil except it costs much less. I haven't tried motor oil but I know others who have had good luck with it.

Twin Oaks - I've not heard that Colt has parked any of their modern guns but I suppose that it's possible. In terms of rust resistance, a coarse matte blue finish will rust faster than a highly polished blue surface under the same conditions. I don't remember the reason for it but I've read several tests that have confirmed this. Some steels also rust faster than others. Perhaps it is a combination of these two things that leads to the rusting of your slide. If it was parkerized, it would hold some oil and tend to be more rust resistant than your blued frame. That's my guess anyway!

[elijdub]

From what I am hearing here, blue over Park is even less durable than straight cold blue. Of course I've been confused before ... :D :D
Bob, That's what i gather as well... I think it's just easier to do because you don't have to take the extra (and much more time-consumimg) steps of removing the "park" and bead-blasting and/or sanding the steel. BUT, it seems that you end up with a significantly inferior finish (in terms of it's durability)...and probably ain't as purty as a deep polished blue finish...to my eye anyway ;)!
I think if i'm going to try out "home re-finishing" at all i'll probably go "all out" and spend the time sanding off the remaining finish to get it down to steel.
Thanks for the additional input!

[elijdub]

Dave, Thank you very much for taking the time to respond in such detail. I, for one, really appreciate Industry Reps, like yourself, "on board"!The bluing that is done now by most manufacturers and professional refinishers is industrial black oxide.
..It is more protective and wears better than cold bluing..
O.K., like Kimber's entire non-stainless "line" of guns. I never really thought of it as "blue" since it doesn't have the deep navy color that i've always associated with that finish.
It does make sense that it's more protective. It just doesn't have that "Carbonia" look to it though ;).

Once I had nothing better to do so I read Brownells' instructions about not using anti-rust oil after applying cold blue (see the earlier post). In the past I have had cold blue wipe right off the next day after letting it sit overnight with CLP on it. I switched to mineral oil and my success rate with cold blue is much better so I tend to believe those instructions. If you go to the drug store, you'll usually find it with the laxatives and fiber supplements. It's the same thing as baby oil except it costs much less. I haven't tried motor oil but I know others who have had good luck with it..
Thanks for the tip on mineral oil. That makes complete sense!...that CLP would remove a cold-blue. Jeez, i'm glad i heard about this first; i'm sure i woulda' tried CLP, as it's what i usually lube my guns with!

I've not heard that Colt has parked any of their modern guns but I suppose that it's possible.
I think my new (to me) non-blue'd, non-COMPACT, OACP is a true parkerized gun. I don't know if you'd consider either "modern", but i'm faily sure the 1991A1 ORM is parkerized too, isn't it?
Again, y'all know way more about this than i do, and i'm just probably wrong :o ;)!

[pa_guns]

I think if i'm going to try out "home re-finishing" at all i'll probably go "all out" and spend the time sanding off the remaining finish to get it down to steel.
Thanks for the additional input!

Hi

I would say you have two choices basic choices:

1) Re-park it with a home kit. The stuff works, and it is durable. I don't think you have to take it down to bare metal at the prep stage. I could be wrong about that though ...

2) Go crazy and take it down to bare metal and polish it. At that point I would send it out to have it hot blued. After all that work, it just isn't right to do a cold blue on it.

Of course I suppose there is a third choice - buy a blued pistol ...

Bob

[Dave Berryhill]

There are lots of guys around here that know more about Colt history than I do so I could be wrong on the parkerizing. I just cut 'em up!

I've got an ORM 1991 in the safe and I can't tell if it has a phosphate finish or not. It sure is black though. When I get around to refinishing it I'll be able to tell right away when I start bead blasting it.

[elijdub]

Hi

I would say you have two choices basic choices:

1) Re-park it with a home kit. The stuff works, and it is durable. I don't think you have to take it down to bare metal at the prep stage. I could be wrong about that though ...

2) Go crazy and take it down to bare metal and polish it. At that point I would send it out to have it hot blued. After all that work, it just isn't right to do a cold blue on it.

Of course I suppose there is a third choice - buy a blued pistol ...

Bob
Thanks for boiling it down ;). I think you're right about the options. I'm leaning more towards a project gun, opting NOT to re-parkerize it, and instead taking my time, really doing a good polish on it. Then the next course of action would be to send it off for a hot-blue. With this plan i'll get to know my gun a little better, AND save all that cost involved in paying someone else to do the polish work. Then the only cost would be the blue-ing, which i can't imagine (assuming ALL the polishing is done) is more than $100 or so.
I definitely considered just buying a blue gun, but with more time on my hands then money, and a desire to try my hand at 'smithing i think i'll give it a go ;).
I'll post before and after pics when i get moving on it.
Thanks again for all the input everybody! This forum is an incredible resource!

[pa_guns]

. I'm leaning more towards a project gun, opting NOT to re-parkerize it, and instead taking my time, really doing a good polish on it....

Hi

If you go that route, please do take your time. It's *very* easy to go crazy with a buffer wheel. The result is a odd, rounded looking metal object that once was a pistol. You can spot examples at most gun shows, sometimes you can find whole tables full of them ....

Bob

[elijdub]

Good advice. To be perfectly honest, i don't even know where to begin. I thought i'd do some more poking around....there are a few links i've found that discuss "how to" remove existing finishes and create a polished look under new blueing.
I hadn't planned on using a buffer wheel.....do you recommend it? I thought i'd go slower, doing it by hand....at least to start. Maybe once i've got it down i could work my way up to machinery.
Whadda ya' think?

[pa_guns]

I hadn't planned on using a buffer wheel.....do you recommend it? I thought i'd go slower, doing it by hand....at least to start. Maybe once i've got it down i could work my way up to machinery.
Whadda ya' think?

Hi

The way I was taught is to start off with flies and get everything flat and true. Next step is with abrasive cloth backed by something solid and *flat*. The final step is indeed with a buffer wheel and a series of abrasives (two or three). The trick is to know just how long to stay in each stage. It's a fine art to do it right.

The real fun comes when you want to polish something round ....

Before you do a pistol that you care about, find a piece of scrap steel and do a polish job on it. You will get a good feel for what's going on that way. For real entertainment turn a file into a knife blade (minor black smithing required ...).

There's a reason you pay a pro good money to do this kind of thing !!

Bob