"Value" Colt

[rudie8125]

I'm interested in buying what some people call a "value model" of 1911. As I understand, the 1991 is Colt's entry in this category of weapon. It doesn't make sense to most people (sometimes even me), but I don't buy foreign cars or foreign tools, and I don't really want to buy a foreign gun either. So far it seems like if I want to buy a new 1911 without breaking the bank, it has to come from Brazil or the Phillipines. Is the 1991 comparable in features and price with the cheap no-frills imported 1911s? Are there any other American-made "value" 1911s?

[RickB]

What most consider "features" are those items missing from the M1991A1, ie beavertail grip safety, Commander-style hammer, large dovetailed sights, front cocking serrations, etc. In that sense, the M1991A1 has NO features. What you get with the Colt is better-quality components, a generally better finish, and the kowledge that you have the real deal. Colt cannot pay UAW wages to its workers and compete with Brazil and the Phillipines. You can get a feature-laden import for less than $500, while the featureless Colt will probably set you back $650. For another $100, you can get a feature-filled, made-in-the-USA Kimber.

[rudie8125]

Thanks Rick,

Another thing I've considered is buying used. Although I would rather not, I wouldn't rule it out if I thought I was getting a quality product. If I looked at used Colts, is there anything I should look for or avoid? Any particular timeframes where quality might be a concern?

[Sifu]

You can pick up a NIB Blued 1991 A1 Colt GovtA1 from GunBroker today for $648 + shipping, FFL, etc. Check it out at http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30069224

This is a basic 1911 you can upgrade as you see fit to meet your needs.

Regards

[Doran]

A used 1991 in decent shape starts around $550 in this part of the country. They can ususally be bought for a little less.

[Pony Boy]

Hey Rudie

I'm afraid I don't know as much about 1911's as I'd like, (That's one of the reason I've joined this forum.), but I'd like to make a comment or two regarding foreign vs. domestic products.

Now I don't want to go on a rant here since my kids are more afraid of my "2 hour lectures" than any corporal punishment I could dish out. Normally, I'm all for buying foreign products as long as they are better or at least better/dollar as US made counterparts with a few exceptions. For the most part, competition forces U. S. producers to make better products and hold prices down more than they would normally.

One exception would be the U. S. gun market. You're not going to see government subsidies for civilian gun products. Such things as lawsuits and other non-market factors force costs to be higher than they would be in a free market. Foreign makers aren't always subject to these factors. I feel that we do need to support domestic gun makers so that they don't shut down.

The other exception is that, as far as possible, I'm not buying products from the PRC or U. S. products made with parts from the PRC. Nothing against the Chinese themselves. I feel that the PRC govt is waging a form of economic warfare. They remind me of what I think Microsoft is doing by eliminating the competition and giving the consumer whatever MS feels like producing. The PRC isn't there yet, but I'd rather not help them out. Do you know that over 90% of all bicycles in the U. S. are made in the PRC? Thank God we could get along without bikes if all of a sudden the PRC decided to have a "Bike Embargo" as a part of their foreign policy.

On the other hand, if it weren't for less expensive foreign gun models, perhaps Colt wouldn' have come out with the plain jane 1991. I think international competition is generally good as long as it's fair. If I was in a position where the only way I could have a 1911 type pistol was to buy a foreign make, I would. Better than no 1911 at all.

I hope this helps. I don't profess to be an economics expert but I thought I'd share what goes on in my twisted little mind. It's sort of like knowing just enough Karate to go out and get my *** kicked (Can I say that here?). Hope it helps you in your decision. I also welcome any disagreement with my views since it's a good way to learn. Please no flamers, I live near enough to West Hollywood as it is :).

Good luck

[rudie8125]

I've heard good things about Norinco. What do you think about Noricos?

[Hawkmoon]

I believe the Colt 1991 uses the Series 80 firing pin safety system.

Looking at the 2005 Colt catalog, the Series 1991 and the Series 70 (1911) look virtually identical. Both no frills, traditional GI hammer, no beavertail, traditional vertical cocking serrations, fixed GI-style sights, wood double-diamond grips.

The only visual difference I can see is that the Series 1991 has a long trigger and the Series 70 has a short trigger. Are there any other differences, beyond the Series 80 safety? How do they compare in price?

[Sifu]

Lance -

Check out this thread http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=3091 for more insight on Norinco vs Colt. Remember, you get what you pay for most of the time.

Semper FI

[Skyviking]

Colt barrels are match-grade, as are the quality of the hammer and sear. Colt saved money on its "no-frills" model, the 1991A1, by not finely polishing the exterior surfaces. They are ideal for customizing., but will work fine as-issued.

[mitchjoe]

rudie8125:

Strictly based on feature set, you do get a few noteworthy upgrades on a new 1991 series pistol as opposed to the "mil-spec" competition:

-All 1991's have had 3-dot sights for awhile
-The NRM models have polished flats
-The blued models have really nice rosewood grips
-Lowered (but not flared) ejection port
-Slightly beveled mag well

Beyond that, the Colt will usually hold it's resale value better and can be considered a better long-term investment. They can be had for as little as $550.00 if your paitent and willing to purchase via the Internet.

I don't have much of a problem with many of the other 1911's, and have had good success with most. Although it's really not fair to compare the imports using a cast frame and slide...(that could easily be a loooong debate :D); I'm just saying keep the playing field even when evaluating competing models.

To me, it's worth a couple of hundred extra bucks to own a Colt at an entry level price point, but there's no shortage of great 1911's from the low to the high end.

mitchjoe

[papashah41]

I believe the Colt 1991 uses the Series 80 firing pin safety system.

Looking at the 2005 Colt catalog, the Series 1991 and the Series 70 (1911) look virtually identical. Both no frills, traditional GI hammer, no beavertail, traditional vertical cocking serrations, fixed GI-style sights, wood double-diamond grips.

The only visual difference I can see is that the Series 1991 has a long trigger and the Series 70 has a short trigger. Are there any other differences, beyond the Series 80 safety? How do they compare in price?

The M-1991 has a long polymer trigger and I believe a flat mainspring housing (also polymer). It has "3 dot" sights and a "reasonable" finish. And it uses the "80 Series" firing pin safety setup.

The "repro" 70 Series on the other hand, is a slightly different animal. It comes out of Colt's "Custom Shop" (from what I understand...they make 'em in the Custom Shop to keep greedy lawyers from sueing Colt should someone shoot off their big toe with an 1911 without all the safety features.....70 Series=no firing pin safety).
As a result.....the finish on the 70 Series needs to be seen in person to be truely apreciated! The blueing looks like it's 10' deep! Beautiful rosewood grips (from Chip McCormick) come standard. And 99% of the pistol is steel! (the only MIM part that I'm aware of is the disconnector...not a huge deal). The barrel also has a unique throat-job (that I've not seen on their other offerings). Now, the 70 Series lacks a beavertail, has a "stock" ejection port and relatively small sights......but this was done to try to make a reproduction of the original 70 Series (thankfully, they didn't use "collet barrel bushings"...no one misses them! ).

I took my "repro" 70 Series and added a Wilson Combat "drop in" beavertail (which fit's like a glove! Very nice work Wilson!), and added a NOS Colt "commander style" ring hammer (it was still sealed in it's 70's vintage package!). The dang pistol is gorgeous!!! :D :D :D

[Hawkmoon]

Papashah --

Thanks for the rundown on features. Do you have any info on comparative prices between the two models?

[papashah41]

Papashah --

Thanks for the rundown on features. Do you have any info on comparative prices between the two models?

Sorry...really can't help you too much on prices. I got my 70 Series thru a trade.....but I've seen 'em priced anywhere between $700 and $1k The "80 Series" M-1991's usually go for about $200 less...give or take. Really depends on where ya' shop.

[rudie8125]

I've been looking at prices online, and I've noticed that the 1991 is typically quite a bit cheaper than the Series 70 repro.

By the way, what does NRM stand for?

Also, I'm pretty traditional, and I think if I bought a 1991 it wouldn't be long before I'd want to yank out the FP safety (although I've heard that it doesn't really affect the performance or reliability of the pistol). What does removing the FP safety entail, and does the series 80 suffer any other interchangeability issues?

[Skyviking]

Actually, the Series 80 was Colt's second foray into the firing pin safety race. In 1939-1940, Colt made a few 1911a1s w/one of their engineer's (Swartz) improvements. The war prevented it from becoming a general production item, and it faded into collector's heaven.

I would'nt worry about the Series 80 vs. 70 debate. The debate over whether or not the grip safety should/should not be there is still raging. I would pack a Series 80 (again) with absolute confidence.

[papashah41]

I agree.....if you find a deal on an "80 Series", jump on it. "Technically", an 80 Series has a few more "pieces-parts" in 'em, which give some gunsmiths a challange to try to do a trigger job......but it can be done by a decent smith. (besides...you really don't want a super-light trigger on a street carried pistol anyway...so the "trigger job" issue becomes even less significant).
And then there are those who say more pieces mean more to potentially go wrong at an in-oppertune time. While correct in theory.....I've never heard of any design flaw with 80 Series pistols that made them any less reliable than a similar 70 Series.
Granted....I prefer 70 Series guns (and am in love with my "reproduction" 70 Series)....I also prefer carberators and large motors in my hotrods....but can't deny the way a new Corvette "spanks" most anything from the 60's/70's....and does it with fuel injection and a (comparitively) small engine......
....so what the hell do I know??? :p

[papashah41]

By the way, what does NRM stand for?

NRM = "New Roll Mark".
ORM = "Old Roll Mark".

[larry starling]

There were 2 Blue NRM at a local store for $549,They didn't stay there long!The new ones he has gotten in are priced in the $619 range!I have seen ORM 1991a1's for the mid 5's also!For my money I would buy the colt,Yes it cost's more,But if try to sell it,It will keep its value.

I have a brand new SS Springfield Loaded never been shot much less taken from box,been hard pressed to even find someone who would offer me anything more than $550 for it!This same gun sells for 709-809 in my area! :eek:

Also I agree with mitchjoe:The colt will have forged parts and not cheap!cast parts!! :eek: