Abusive and finiky feeding- PIC

[SCW]

My Dan Wesson CBOB has always had a failry abusive feed, my carry ammo gets set back after about 3-5 loadings and frequently my reloads (185 or 200gr PLSWC) get very stuffed back into the case on feeding. I don't really want to crimp any more than I am, but I'm looking for solutions.

In this pic you can see the track through the powder residue that the SWC is making on feeding. Any suggestions? I can measure the angle of the feed ramp tomorrow if that is suspect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070349.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070348.jpg

PS, this actually has been somewhat difficult to photograph. I can take more pics if needed as well.

[jrhweldon]

hard to tell but looks like ramp needs to be polished , are you holding the barrel back against ramp , should be about 1/32 inch space between top edge of ramp and bottom edge of barrel don't know if thi helps good luck jrhweldon

[auto45]

I'll "play" gunsmith. :)

From the "marks", great pictures by the way, your bullets appear to start hitting the very bottom the barrel ramp, not frame ramp, which pushes the barrel up and causes a greater angle for the bullet to feed...ka-chunk.
On my gun, the LSWC at 1.25" hits only the middle to top of the barrel ramp and feeds 100%. Ideally, the bullet is suppossed to hit just the top corner of the barrel ramp for the smoothest feeding.

In the Gunsmith stickies, Tuner detailed what appears to be happening to yours in the "Controlled feed" section.

I'd check your ammo specs first. Yours looks like a good candidate, or test, for the 7 round checkmate "hybrid" mags that you can read about on this forum which may help your feeding cycle.

That's the "easy try it" stuff before you have the angles, barrel timing checked by a real "smith".

[niemi24s]

Looks like the noses of your bullets are hitting the receiver feed ramp too far down. This, IIRC, is usually caused by the magazine - as are most feeding problems.

What kind(s) of magazine(s) are you using? If only one kind, suggest you try another kind - like a standard Colt 7-rounder.

[SCW]

I'll "play" gunsmith. :)

From the "marks", great pictures by the way, your bullets appear to start hitting the very bottom the barrel ramp, not frame ramp, which pushes the barrel up and causes a greater angle for the bullet to feed...ka-chunk.
On my gun, the LSWC at 1.25" hits only the middle to top of the barrel ramp and feeds 100%. Ideally, the bullet is suppossed to hit just the top corner of the barrel ramp for the smoothest feeding.

In the Gunsmith stickies, Tuner detailed what appears to be happening to yours in the "Controlled feed" section.

I'd check your ammo specs first. Yours looks like a good candidate, or test, for the 7 round checkmate "hybrid" mags that you can read about on this forum which may help your feeding cycle.

That's the "easy try it" stuff before you have the angles, barrel timing checked by a real "smith".

Thanks for the thoughts-

I think the bullet is actually striking the feed ramp pretty hard, the frame ramp has some impacted lead on it, and then getting crammed up to the barrel. It appears to miss the bottom part of the barrel ramp and hit the top of the barrel ramp pretty hard again.

Ammo specs are (as always) a pretty good idea, but with the shoulder on the SWC I don't know if I have many options, other than getting a different design with a shorter 'snout' sticking out front.

My carry ammo (Remington Golden Sabers) and hardball doesn't have any trouble feeding, but the relatively quick set-back makes me think that they are still getting knocked around too much.

Thanks again-
Shane

[SCW]

Looks like the noses of your bullets are hitting the receiver feed ramp too far down. This, IIRC, is usually caused by the magazine - as are most feeding problems.

What kind(s) of magazine(s) are you using? If only one kind, suggest you try another kind - like a standard Colt 7-rounder.

You posted while I was posting :D

I'm using the DW factory mag (I believe they are MecGar?) and a horrid & absolutely worthless but brand spanking new Kimber mag. I can't describe my hate for Kimber mags, but that's all I've been able to find locally.

I have also used Willson 8rd mags that a guy I shoot with uses, they seem to be pretty good on the whole but the plastic follower gets worn out and the gun starts to feed poorly again. I've been slow to buy more mags until I nail down which type works for me. I have been considering Novak or Wolfe mags, any thoughts?

[1911Tuner]

Junior member jrweldon hit it pretty closely with this:

are you holding the barrel back against ramp , should be about 1/32 inch space between top edge of ramp and bottom edge of barrel

You're having a classic 3-Point Jam. Basically, the slide is pushing the barrel forward through the bullet striking too low on the barrel ramp. We can't tell at this point whether it's because of an out of spec barrel...or an out of spec feed ramp angle.

Many assume incorrectly that the barrel ramp is a bullet guide, or an extension of the feed ramp. The barrel ramp...aka "Throat"...is actually a clearance cut. The bullet shouldn't hit it straight on like that. Ideally, it shouldn't touch it at all, other than to glide across the top corner as it glances off the feed ramp. When that happens, the bullet nose dosn't impinge on the barrel, and the side of the bullet ogive..and the cartridge case...press down on the barrel and keep it on the frame bed...which lowers the angle that the bullet has to overcome as it breaks over to horizontal.

The (probable) cure is to set the bottom of the barrel ramp forward, and reshape the throat to match the bottom edge. If the feed ramp angle is to spec, this will cure the problem about 95 times out of a hundred.

[SCW]

Johnny, if I understand correctly, the top of the barrel ramp is getting in the way and needs to be clearanced slightly such that it is not touched as the round feeds.

Right?

Should the round be striking the feed ramp in the frame about 1/2 way up as it appears is happening now? I'm wondering if it's a combination of the barrel ramp and the way the mag is releasing the next round.

I'll get a protractor on the feed ramp tonight and see if the ramp is within spec.

EDIT:
Also, I do have about 1/32" between the ramp and barrel, I'll get a picture of it tonight but that distance is pretty close to what I've got.

[Captain Eagle]

No comment, and you can quote me.

[Sniper350]

Just a friendly reminder about re-chambering the same ammo after cleaning or maintenance of the pistol ............

General rule of thumb ........ is to throw away any ammo that has been chambered more than 3 times. This is more of a safety practice.........than addressing the smoothness or not -- of your auto-loaders.

Of course, crimped ammo is harder to get that dangerous bullet set back to occur......but it still does happen.

SCW - from your photo's -- that barrel's throat area does appear pretty strong in the vertical. I am not surprised you are having problems with semi wad-cutters feeding smoothly. It might require a trip back to the Mother Ship to have that throat adjusted -- making a strong point to DW that you are shooting a lot of SWC's.

JF.

[SCW]

No comment, and you can quote me.
Happy?


SCW - from your photo's -- that barrel's throat area does appear pretty strong in the vertical. I am not surprised you are having problems with semi wad-cutters feeding smoothly. It might require a trip back to the Mother Ship to have that throat adjusted -- making a strong point to DW that you are shooting a lot of SWC's.


What do you (or anyone else) think about the 'dimpled' barrel ramps that Colt is putting out? Maybe that's an appropriate fix?

[Joni Lynn]

The right fix is probably not a Colt barrel with dimple. The right 'smith will properly polish/throat/whatever and your gun will run correctly. Be forewarned that if done wrong, you can't put metal back on very easily and you could end up needing a replacement barrel.
Good luck.

[gbw]

No comment, and you can quote me.


Helpful, as ever.

SCW:

Johnny's the expert, but if you have the .032+/- gap, the next thing to check may be the frame ramp angle. If it's 31* or very close, maybe the next place to look is at magazines, and possibly ammo. For Wilson 7-rd magazines, the Tripp upgrade follower and spring solved it's problems for me 100%. (I did cut one coil from the spring, they are very very strong).

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, if I understand correctly, the top of the barrel ramp is getting in the way and needs to be clearanced slightly such that it is not touched as the round feeds.

No. The whole ramp should be moved forward...and that doesn't always work if the feed ramp angle is very far out of spec. 31.5 degrees is ideal...but can be made to work at 31 or 32 with a little careful tweakin'. Grinding on the top corner is a good way to lose case head support and wind up with pregnant-belly cases.

Sniper...If the gun is feeding correctly, there won't be any bullet setback. One of my carry pistols is still riding with the same top round that it started with on the Spring Equinox...chambered daily until about 2 weeks ago...with about .001-.002 inch total lost off the overall length.

Sometimes conventional wisdom/common knowledge stems from myth that stems from what is actually a malfunction. I've got several USGI pistols that shoot holes in some other common knowlwedge concerning the fact that they won't feed reliably with anything but hardball. Come watch these old girls shuck hollowpoints and semi-wadcutters...from the original "Hardball Only" magazines at that.

Cap'n... :rolleyes:

[Sniper350]

If the gun is feeding correctly, there won't be any bullet setback.

1911Tuner ...... That's a real big "IF" ............. one that many people never pay attention to :confused: .....and so goes the General rule of thumb as a safety precaution only.

I clearly tried to point out that what was being recommended had NOTHING to do with how smooth or NOT the semi-auto was loading. ;)

I'll bet you can instinctively know when your pistols start mis behaven :D - and take the appropriate measures to make them right, so bullet set-back never becomes an issue. But there are thousands of shooters that [ due to no fault of their own ] haven't got a clue ......and never check for bullet set back and many more that don't even know what that term implies..........

So I will stand by my recommendation ....."after chambering a round for more than 3 times -- throw it away". Safety always comes first

JF.

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner ...... That's a real big "IF"

I agree.


So I will stand by my recommendation ....."after chambering a round for more than 3 times -- throw it away". Safety always comes first

No argument there. If the pistol is feeding correctly, there will be no bullet setback. The problem is that...so few do any more.

[SCW]

Thanks again. It looks like I've possibly got an out-of-spec feed ramp, I measured it today as close as I could and came up with 26* three times, but it is slightly curved so that is an approximate. There is no way it's 31.5*.

Here are a few pictures that might be pertinate-

Steepness of the barrel ramp-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070353.jpg

Barrel set-back-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070357.jpg

And a taste of the violence of the feeding process-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070354.jpg

It looks like my first order of business should be to get the feed ramp fixed up, yes? I put my protractor across the top of the rails and measured the average (judged by eyeball) slope of the ramp. I did that before I saw what the angle should be so I was not skewed by trying to make it say what I wanted it to say.

[niemi24s]

Hi SCW:

Was the 1/32 inch barrel ramp-to-receiver ramp space measured with the barrel pushed back firmly?

FWIW, a straight-cut barrel ramp should be 35 degrees from the vertical. A curved-cut barrel ramp should be (from the vertical) 23 degrees at the bottom and 47 degrees at the top - averaging 35 degrees.

Unless my eyes are fooling me, it seems there's a vertical edge at the bottom of the barrel ramp. If so, the top part of this vertical edge could actually be aft of a line extended upward along the receiver feed ramp. This little edge can catch the bullet nose and cause the bullet to lift up the back end of the barrel. Voila - 3 point jam! There's some drawings of these two barrel ramp configurations here somewhere.

How was the 26 degree receiver feed ramp angle measured? That is a difficult thing to measure, so I was just curious. Cheers

[1911Tuner]

Here's a link, courtesy of Chuck Rogers to show how the ramp angle should be verified.

Better for the ramp to be a bit too steep than a bit too shallow. i.e. It will work better at 31 degrees than at 32. If yours checks at 26 degrees, it can probably be re-cut, but a too-steep angle doesn't generally produce barrel contact/ 3-Point Jams, but usually hangs up on the ramp itself. I suspect that you didn't measure it right.
Look at the drawing and try again.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=189756

[SCW]

Thanks- At the risk of innundating this thread with pictures, I put some lipstick (don't tell Mrs. SCW) on the feed ramp and set the protractor to 31.5 and rubbed it a bit to see where it contacted the ramp- Here is the result.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070367.jpg

Barrel in and pushed back all the way-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/utahmom/Guns/P1070365.jpg

Are we closer to a solution? Johnny, do you still think I can simply have the barrel ramp set back a bit to solve the problem?

[1911Tuner]

do you still think I can simply have the barrel ramp set back a bit to solve the problem?

You've got ample gap between the top of the ramp and the bottom of the barrel...so probably not.

The lipstick test...pun intended...makes it look like the feed ramp has the correct angle at the bottom, then breaks into a shallower angle at the top...which would have the same effect. The bullet nose isn't glancing up and over the top corner of the barrel ramp.

The 3-Point Jam is caused by the bullet nose pushing the barrel forward. When the barrel moves forward, it also moves up. When it moves up too early, it tries to time into the slide before the slide is in the right place to accept it. The lug corners hit...barrel front to slide rear...and everything stops if the contact is hard. A general rule of thumb is that...if you can push it into battery with just a little pressure, it's probably extractor tension or something else fairly simple. If you can't push it in...or if it takes a solid whack...it's a 3-Point Jam.

At this point, I'd say that you probably need the help of a pro...either to recut the ramp, or install an insert.

[niemi24s]

Hi 1911 Tuner: Do you think a little very careful work with a hand scrape could move just the center portion of feed ramp (already at about 31.5 degrees) forward just enough to get rid of the too-shallow top portion of the ramp? Just curious. Regards

[SCW]

one other though I had- My magazine sits low in the well by about 1/8", as in it sticks out of the frame about that far, and can be pushed into the frame about 3/16" or so. My thinking is that possibly the mag is sitting slightly low and the rounds are smacking into the ramp lower than they could.

Is this likely? Will a new mag catch fix it?

Thanks-
Shane

[1911Tuner]

Hi 1911 Tuner: Do you think a little very careful work with a hand scrape could move just the center portion of feed ramp (already at about 31.5 degrees) forward just enough to get rid of the too-shallow top portion of the ramp?

Maybe. It depends on a couple of things. Length of the existing magwell being the big one. Sometimes it's best to just send it to a pro with a mill and a full understanding of what he's doing.

[niemi24s]

Could be either the magazine catch or the magazine. You said "My magazine sits low...." as if you have only one magazine. If so check with an assortment of other magazines that fit OK in other guns and check your magazine in somebody else's gun. This way you'll know whether the problem's your magazine or the catch. You could also try your catch in a another gun.

No sense spending $ on a catch when it might be the mag. Then again, it could be a problem with both.

Good observation, by the way.

[robot1911]

[QUOTE=SCW]one other though I had- My magazine sits low in the well by about 1/8", as in it sticks out of the frame about that far, and can be pushed into the frame about 3/16" or so. My thinking is that possibly the mag is sitting slightly low and the rounds are smacking into the ramp lower than they could.

Is this likely? Will a new mag catch fix it?''
------------------------------------------------------------

I've been waiting for this one. Other than cleaning up that ramp, I'll bet the mags are locking in too low. I've had that happen twice over the past few years and the fix was either one of Virgil Tripp's Cobra Mags, or an STI mag catch, both of which raise the riding height of the mag...for former by 'about' .080 and the latter by 'about .050'.
And yes, Johnny, I know it ain't right, but it works!

BTW, one of those 2 was a Commander, the other an Essex.

Bob

[twin oaks]

Once you have all the other things straightened out, if you still have problems with the SWCs, try switching to a truncated cone. They have a nice flat nose for clean holes in paper, but lack the shoulder of a SWC that can cause problems. My Colt has never had probs with them, but I had another pistol that did. The bottom of the ramp (as in a ramped barrel) was catching the shoulder. Yes, I know that it shouldn't have. It was a nice new pretty SS bar-sto that I trusted to an idiot with a dremel. :mad: So since I couldn't afford a new barrel, nor find a 'good' 'smith, I just switched ammo. It ran fine with the Trunc. cones, though disappointingly that's all it would run. Oh if I'd only known what I know now. . . .

Anyway, good advice in the previous posts, and this is just my .02.