Ed Brown Beavertail on Kimber

[sycolamb]

I’ve always heard that frame modification is necessary to install the Ed Brown Memory Beavertail on a Kimber but could never find pictures of what it would look like without modification or “fitting”. I wanted to see for myself just what it was going to take in order to install one on my Custom II. So I broke out the Dremel :scared: and got to work. This is what it looks like with NO modification to the frame in any way. Only a VERY small amount of filing was necessary to fit the trigger block arm to the trigger. I took it to the range and it functions flawlessly!! And it is very comfortable just as it is.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0061a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0060a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0059a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0058a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0057a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0056a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u189/sycolamb/DSC_0055a.jpg

[Joni Lynn]

I fit one of those to my Custom Eclipse a couple years ago, it turned out about like yours did and functioned well. The biggest thing I don't care for on the Kimbers is their grip safety.
Nice work!

[tightgroups]

Do you two by chance know if the Ed Brown grip safety would fit on a Springfield? Please take a look at my thread in the Springfield section to understand my reasons for asking.

Thank you.

[Lazarus]

Sir,

You missed the point. When custom pistolsmiths consider installing a beavertail they are not so much interested in whether the part will drop in or whether the part can perform its basic function. Your Brown beavertail obviously fits the bill in those first two departments.

A more refined approach to gun building is to produce art in metal. And it would not do to build a customized blaster with unsightly gaps in the fit and still be a contender for the Guild. Your second photo shows the exact problem perfectly and that is 2 little triangles where the frame parts company with the beavertail. Welding up the frame is indeed required to make a Brown fit perfectly in a Kimber frame.

The Wilson beavertail, on the other hand, can be fit perfectly in the Kimber frame without any welding, but is definitely not a drop-in. However, the Wilson beavertail is a complex curve and requires a different hold than the Brown, something that may not suit everyone. Its a start, anyway.

-Lazarus

[sycolamb]

Lazarus,
You’re absolutely right about the looks. I will eventually “fit” the beavertail to the frame in order to increase the esthetics (once I can afford the refinish!). The way it currently fits my frame shows it will need some metal removal for a custom look and fit but I don’t believe it will require any welding up of the frame. I had always wondered how the Ed Brown would fit “without” any modification to the Kimber frame and I thought others might as well.

[tightgroups]

Actually, I believe Lazarus is correct. You will have to add metal in order for there to be seemless transition from the grip safety to the frame. If you look closely at pic #3 and pic #7 you'll see the gaps. Photo #7 clearly shows that the grip safety and the frame do not meet. The only way to fill that gap would be to add metal by welding or building up that spot on the frame. How would you fill this gap by removing material? I think overall it is a nice job though and we're nitpicking. It's not like you can see these gaps when you're shooting, right?

[sycolamb]

Tightgroups & Lazarus,
I see what you both are talking about now. It won’t bother me too much to leave it without the weld up. But at last I now know what you mean by needing to “weld up” the frame!!

[tightgroups]

I wish I could have helped you in a positive way like you helped me, sorry. I have decided on the Wilson beavertail. I won't order until I get a few more expert opinions but so far it looks like the wilson will fit my pistol very well. Thanks again syco.

[auto45]

IMHO, the only reason to use an EB grip safety is it's "highcut"...literally allows your hand to sit higher on the frame...because you "buzzed" the frame to match the EB beavertail.

If you don't "grind" away the frame metal, which make it "higher", then I'm not sure what you gain to be honest.

Perhaps, the S&A grip safety would fit the kimber frame better if your trying to alter the look of the grip safety...not sure.

[Joni Lynn]

I think the SA 1911's use a different radius than the Kimber/ed Brown and most others. Wilson makes a nice one that will fit it though.

[sycolamb]

Auto45,
It’s not so much that I wanted to gain the high handhold of the Ed Brown; it was mainly to get rid of the stock Kimber BT which “looks wise” I didn’t care too much for. Even without any frame modification, I think the EB still looks better than the BT my Kimber shipped with. But as I stated in an earlier post, I will eventually blend it to the frame for a cleaner look.

[tightgroups]

Syco,

I have a Kimber also (besides my Springfield) and I believe you must be speaking of the Kimber BT that doesn't have the raised pad, correct? I may also eventually get an ED Brown BT and install it to see if it feels any better. I know that the Ed Brown will cosmetically look much better than the stock Kimber beavertail. If I do buy one I'll have to get the frame welded eventually also as I really want a beautiful gun. I think we're all capable of doing great custom work on 1911s (most of us anyway) but we lack the tools to do some of the more involved custom modifications. Don't get me wrong though, it still takes experience and a good eye. I would never ever try and say that what custom smiths do is easy, just that with a willingness to learn and time and experience plus the proper tools we too can create beautiful works of art.

[Lazarus]

Well, one of the reasons for installing a beavertail is to protect the web of the hand whilst allowing a little higher grip than the government part. Personally I've never had a problem with hammer bite. The Brown beavertail affords a reasonablly high hold, but its main points are ease of installation (single radius) and a nice feel.

Now if you really do want the highest available hold, then you want the Wilson part. I'm not saying that higher is better. Individual tastes vary. But it is clear that with a Wilson, the top of your hand is at the pivot point itself. That means that you must practice your firing grip to apply pressure in the correct spot.

But there is more. A metal art fanatic not only wants the little triangles gone, but he will studiously consider the full artistic sweep of the lines formed by the intersection of the beavertail with the frame. And be assured that it is not enough for the sweeping lines to look pleasing in just one position of the safety! Those lines must pass muster whether the grip safety is in its resting or in its applied position.

I just happen to have a few photos of a Wilson installed in a Kimber frame. This is the original Gold Match model...all of the small parts have been replaced. Say, why is that, anyway?

http://www.eskimo.com/~parkerc/Beavertail1.jpg

http://www.eskimo.com/~parkerc/Beavertail2.jpg

http://www.eskimo.com/~parkerc/Beavertail3.jpg

-Lazarus

[tightgroups]

Are you saying they were replaced (the parts) because the factory parts were MIM? I thought the Ed Brown gave the highest hold? I believe Harrison even stated that on his explination of types I, II, and III beavertails and their specific installation challenges. I could have misread it but I think I'm on point. Oh yeah, nice job by the way!

[Lazarus]

Oh, oh....I better go and read what Harrison said about beavertails. Who is Harrison? And, no, the Brown beavertail is not the highest hold available. And if you asked EB himself he would agree and tell you why he didn't want to make a part with the highest hold. Once you go past the pivot point, your hand can just as easily force the safety off as it can force the safety on. Of course, the gun's owner would be thoroughly trained and familiar with his own weapon, making that last point of no concern.

Relative ease of installation...well that would be a difficult question. With a blued gun you will always have to re-blue after fitting the beavertail, and that's a pain. Even with stainless you have to bead blast to match the finish of the part to the finish of the gun.

Ed Brown's beavertail does fit into his own frame and a couple of others without the need for welding, btw. But, like anything else, its good to try it out before going to a lot of expense and work. First, be certain that the part you like actually feels right to you and works the way you want. Then you can do the full custom fitting if desired.

-Lazarus

[tightgroups]

Relax Lazarus. I didn't mean to bring up a point of contention between the two of us.

Here's a link to his site:

Harrison Customs (http://www.harrisoncustom.com/Home.aspx)

John Harrison builds some of the most beautiful 1911 customs around and is well respected by many builders, including Ed Brown. As I said before, I may have misread or misunderstood what John was explaining on his beavertail install article. I appreciate the help and the opinions you've offered up. Keep them coming.

Edit: I went and looked over the article again and Ed Brown does indeed offer the highest hold, at least as it concerns the Wilson BT grip safety.

Here's a snipit from John Harrison's article on Beavertail grip safety installations:

Group 2 beavertails all use the compound frame radius developed by Wilson Combat. This group includes the Wilson #298, the Caspian, Clark and Springfield Armory. The Group 2 products take less work to blend the exterior to the frame than the Group 1 beavertails, but because the frame joint is a compound radius, it's initial installation to the frame tangs is not conducive to machine cutting. Group 2's are generally ground to rough shape, using a template, then filed to fit by hand. They all give you the advantage of raising your hand on the frame, but not quite as high as Group 1 . Group 2 safeties are a little less likely to expose the hole than Group 1 safeties.

End of Article Snipit

The group 1 BT safety that John is talking about is the Ed Brown. Now it is possible that Mr.Harrision is wrong but I doubt it considering his skill any experience in building custom 1911s, many of them being some of the best I've ever seen to date.

[BigJon]

I wish I could have helped you in a positive way like you helped me, sorry. I have decided on the Wilson beavertail. I won't order until I get a few more expert opinions but so far it looks like the wilson will fit my pistol very well. Thanks again syco.

I hope some other folks here may be able to give some feedback on the Wilson GS. I'm a bit prejudiced against them. I have only attempted to install one. It was on a Caspian receiver. About 1/2 of the way into the fit, I found that the Wilson unit was too thin - it actually wiggled a little in between the frame tangs, of course making a seamless fit utterly impossible. That was the end of my Wilson beavertail purchases. Perhaps some other folks can mirror or discount this experience.

Best,
Jon

[tightgroups]

From what I understand that isn't necessarily because of the beavertail. Some frame tangs (the space between the tangs) are slightly wider and you must weld them up a bit for the beavertail to fit correctly and some are slightly narrower.It's definitely better to have a frame that is slightly narrower so no welding is needed. Check out John Harrison's article on beavertails :

Beavertail Grip Safeties (http://www.harrisoncustom.com/TextDesc/Beavertail.htm)

Still though, that doesn't mean I won't run into the same problem that you had. It would be nice if all the BT safeties available would be built on the heavy side so this problem wouldn't be an issue. I'm glad you decided to post this information since these are the kinds of posts that I'm looking for. Did you replace the Wilson BT with the S&A BT that has the .250 radius or the one that has the .220 radius? I really want the gun to sit lower in my hand and so far it seems like the .220 radius doesn't really change the depth in which the pistol sits in the hand.

Thanks BigJon.

[BigJon]

When you hear folks talking about welding the tangs, I believe it's most commonly associated with filling empty spaces that would exist along the circumference of the tangs on the outside, not on the inside in between the tangs..

I have heard of folks welding a little bead inside the tangs to correct a loose fit of the sort I ran into with the Wilson unit. But, I don't think that ought to be something one should have to do with a high-grade aftermarket part that is one that is intended to be fit (not drop in) anyway. That being the case it should at worst be made to wide so that it would have to be fit like the rest of the unit, not too thin IMO.

Best,
Jon

[tightgroups]

I agree with you completely and I'm surprised they don't, considering the kind of expertise and quality most of us come to expect from our 1911s. Seems like the bottom line is what is really important to them. I've heard people calling up different makers and specifically asking them if their product (beavertail GS in this example) would fit correctly in their specific gun. The maker assured the person that their beavertail would fit perfectly after some minor fitting. When the poor guy finally received the beavertail it was very ill-fitting and not because of installation incompetence. I don't want to have to go through two beavertail grip safeties before I find the correct one that will fit properly.

Since the S&A .220 will really only stop hammer bit and give nicer look I'd rather use another brand. I'm looking for a beavertail that will lower the pistol into my hand and supposedly the S&A .220 is essentially the same as the original grip safety, at least as it concerns the way the gun sits in the hand. The Wilson will definitely locate the pistol deeper into my hand (.250) and that is what I like. My Kimber beavertail is a .250 radius and it feels great in my hand.

[BigJon]

I don't want to have to go through two beavertail grip safeties before I find the correct one that will fit properly.

Yep, I'm right witcha on that'n bro! What made it hurt all the more was that it didn't GET loose until I was in the middle of blending the GS with the frame! OUCH!!!!!

Since the S&A .220 will really only stop hammer bit and give nicer look I'd rather use another brand. I'm looking for a beavertail that will lower the pistol into my hand and supposedly the S&A .220 is essentially the same as the original grip safety, at least as it concerns the way the gun sits in the hand. The Wilson will definitely locate the pistol deeper into my hand (.250) and that is what I like. My Kimber beavertail is a .250 radius and it feels great in my hand.

I'll tell ya what might be what you're looking for - if you don't mind installing one, the ol' Smith and Alexander unit is a great one. It doesn't raise the hand much, but it works very well, and (IMO) it ends up looking more uniform on some guns than the higher GS's. When I say "uniform," I'm referring to the whole gun - to me, it doesn't look added on the way a higher GS might on some pistols, if that makes sense; on some, the very high GS's look like . . . hmmm . . . how do I describe this . . . like a bootlegger car? You know, a normal looking car from the front bumper to the back of the rear doors, but then all jacked up in the back? lol!

Here's are a couple of photos of the Patriot COP pistol (in the white) I built in Dave's on-line course. It has the S&A installed, handles extremely well and IMO looks very good on this particular pistol. (Same gun - different grips - practicing to try to improve my meager photo skills) . . .

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/Patriot%2082/Completed/IMG_3830.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/Patriot%2082/Completed/IMG_3804a.jpg


Best,
Jon

[BigJon]

And one more thing - the original question was about installing a Brown GS on a Kimber. It can be done - and pretty darned well, even by a guy at home with hand tools. I'm a kitchen-table builder whose skill I would honestly rate as middle-of-the road at this point; I'm over the learning-curve hump on some things, and way before it on others.

The first pistol I tried to work on beyond just installing drop-in parts was a Kimber that had been safe queen. I had bought the pistol new from a very well known smith and had them do a reliability job and an accuracy job on it before delivery. The experience was one of the worst I've ever had with any company in any industry - it was so bad that when the pistol finally arrived, the GS was inoperable, and the sights slid right out of their dovetails! I lost confidence in it from the get go, and it just stayed in the safe. That made it a perfect candidate for my practice. After my practice ruined the slide, I installed a Colt Series 70 slide on it and undertook to practice on other things too. One of those was installing a GS.

The photo below shows the pistol in the white with most of the work done. The GS turned out pretty well. There is a very, very small gap between the tangs and the GS on the bottom of the radius, but it was not as bad as it might have been. I was able to eliminate almost all of it by continuing to thin the tang / GS junction UPWARD - blending the bottom up.

Bottom line: Yes, a Brown GS can be installed on a Kimber. It takes quite a bit of blending, but it isn't really too hard, even for a kitchen-table guy like me, and the results are, at the very least, satisfactory.

Best,
Jon

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/Kimber%20Project/Kimber%20Nearing%20Completion/IMG_3820.jpg

[tightgroups]

Nice job on both guns John. I do have some questions for you so here goes:

1.) What did you use to strip off the original finish (Park, blue, etc.) on the gun and take it down to the white?

2.) What did you use to polish the white metal and what, if any, kind of protection is on the metal so the gun will not rust?

I've been fiddling with the idea of having one 1911 in the white as I'm not a big fan of stainless steel. I'd even like a matte looking finish on an "in the white pistol" if that is possible, I like the dull gray look quite a bit. The thing that I wonder about is sand blasting or bead blasting a pistol in the white and then leaving it like that might make the pistol more vulneralbe to rust and corrosion. What do you think?

[BigJon]

Hi, TG. Thanks for the kind words. Actually, I used "in the white" meaning "unfinished." The upper is carbon steel with the original Colt finish on it, and the lower stainless. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna finish the whole gun in melonite.

[Lazarus]

BigJon brings up another interesting point about beavertail looseness between the frame tangs. My opinion: grip safety looseness is completely unpredictable and has more to do with thumb saftey crosspin diameter and slight variations in tang width from frame to frame.

Beavertail/Grip Safety looseness is one of my pet peeves and there are a couple of good ways to get rid of it. Neither method involves welding. Note more specifically the looseness is caused when the hole in the beavertail is larger than the thumb safety crosspin. Of course a determined and skilled welder could fill the beavertail hole with a steel pin, silver solder it and then re-drill slightly undersize. Lots of work. Another method involves artisticly "re-fitting" the sides of the beavertail near the pressure pad. Yet another way to approach it is to add a "bearing pin" near the beavertail pivot that won't be visible externally.

-Lazarus

[tightgroups]

I need to look into Black-T and melonite. I'm not familiar nor have I taken a look ar either of the two.

[BigJon]

I'm certainly no expert on them, but what drew me to the melonite was that, according to reports, it can be applied to a gun like mine that's 1/2 carbon steel and 1/2 stainless steel, and the gun will end up with the same finish.

[Captain Eagle]

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/6573320/35072006.jpg

We "Finish the Job' around here.

[BigJon]

Well, Captain, that instal job is just a hair - just a HAIR - better'n the job I did adding the EB to my my Colt/Kimber . . . juuuust a hair. ;)

Best,
Jon

[BigJon]

BigJon brings up another interesting point about beavertail looseness between the frame tangs. My opinion: grip safety looseness is completely unpredictable and has more to do with thumb saftey crosspin diameter and slight variations in tang width from frame to frame.

Hi, Laz. Sorry so late in responding - didn't notice the post (old age). Anway, good point mentioning the pin - that needed to be mentioned.


Beavertail/Grip Safety looseness is one of my pet peeves and there are a couple of good ways to get rid of it. Neither method involves welding. Note more specifically the looseness is caused when the hole in the beavertail is larger than the thumb safety crosspin. Of course a determined and skilled welder could fill the beavertail hole with a steel pin, silver solder it and then re-drill slightly undersize. Lots of work. Another method involves artisticly "re-fitting" the sides of the beavertail near the pressure pad. Yet another way to approach it is to add a "bearing pin" near the beavertail pivot that won't be visible externally.

More good info. I had heard about the welding tip, and I had thought about whopping the inside of the GS's bottom a bit to tighten it up. I'm not a welder, and I don't want to whop the ol' safety, so those aren't options for me. I had consider also the possibiltity of drilling a hole through the GS right behind the pin hole and installing a rod to act as a brace. Instead, I just tossed the Wilson unit and ordered a King's unit. Tried the King's and found that it has no such problems. Will have to have the tangs welded back up, but hey - I just consider that tuition for my education in the school of hard knocks . . . or perhaps I should say, the "School of Loose Parts?"

Best,
Jon