good articles on external extractor tweeking?

[BTF/PTM]

Everyone says external extractors are easy to work on. Anyone got good links to how-to's? Do I need any special punches or tools?

[Recon]

BTF/PTM:

I think about all you can do with an external is remove it for cleaning or change out the spring.

[Sniper350]

I think Recon is mostly right -- not much can be done with them BUT

I am fighting with a SIG external extractor now ...........it has been jamming a commander size 1911 for weeks now. Like the internal extractor, there are some angles that help the extractor function cleanly with the pistol. The front bottom edge needs a tiny 45 degree relief cut on the corner. It is very important that the claw is free of any burrs. You might also want to check that the extractor claw isn't too long........ I had to put a small radius on the forward edge..........

I think I have the jamming all but solved .....a few more test firings will tell.
The amazing thing for me to remember is how small the adjustments were that were needed !!!

JF.

[BTF/PTM]

I think Recon is mostly right -- not much can be done with them BUT

I am fighting with a SIG external extractor now ...........it has been jamming a commander size 1911 for weeks now. Like the internal extractor, there are some angles that help the extractor function cleanly with the pistol. The front bottom edge needs a tiny 45 degree relief cut on the corner. It is very important that the claw is free of any burrs. You might also want to check that the extractor claw isn't too long........ I had to put a small radius on the forward edge..........

I think I have the jamming all but solved .....a few more test firings will tell.
The amazing thing for me to remember is how small the adjustments were that were needed !!!

JF.

Sniper, I think you and I are destined to be long time friends. You've helped me in at least two of my Sig threads with the troubles it's been having, and now you're working on another Sig that needs a bit of tweeking. We should do some real testing of the various Sig 1911 models and publish an article :)

I'll check the extractor hook closely tonite when I clean the gun. It feels like it's still a bit tight and I can still get the slide to stick (3-point jam like always) occasionally when I use the slide stop.

Do I need a special tool to remove the pin in the slide? Actually, I should digress a bit; is that pin what holds the extractor in place? Thats why I was asking abotu articles, I'm hoping for specifics on how the extractor is mounted and how it can be tuned. I don't think Sig is going to take the gun back a third time if I simply say "it feels tight", unfortunately.

[David Rose]

A small punch that is slightly smaller than the pin will remove the extractor pin. I don't remember the diameter. I just go by comparative size rather than dimensions. Caspian told me to install the pin from the bottom. I found out the hard way that the reason for that was that there was slight crimp at the top. If you run the pin in (and out) of the bottom, it will stay captive. If you open the top crimp, or if Sig has already done that, the pin can come out the top.

My Caspian kits that were made for Sig only needed a slight (maybe .015") bevel on the bottom edge. I've heard others say that the Sigs needed a Caspian extractor to perform correctly. I don't know.

David

[BTF/PTM]

Ok, so the extractor should be driven out of the slide from top to bottom, and installed bottom to top. Thanks :)

It's very tempting for me to try to tweek it this afternoon becuz I've always been a tinkerer and it seems like such a simple thing, but I think I'm gonna exercise a rare bout of constraint and talk to a local gunsmith before I go taking the GSR apart.

On that note, though, I can't find any pictures of how the external extractor actually mounts in the slide; does the extractor have a single hole in it where that pin is driven through? Or, does it have a slot such that you can adjust the longitudinal position of the hook and then drive the pin in to hold it where you want it? That's my main concern, I'd hate to find out I need a special depth gauge to get the hook exactly where it needs to be before I can put it back together and get it working properly again.

[David Rose]

There is only one pin size hole. Use gentle taps on the proper punch and you won't hurt a thing. But I always encourage my customers to get my (free) advice before they do anything they are concerned about. It saves us both pain in the long run.

David

Ok, so the extractor should be driven out of the slide from top to bottom, and installed bottom to top. Thanks :)

It's very tempting for me to try to tweek it this afternoon becuz I've always been a tinkerer and it seems like such a simple thing, but I think I'm gonna exercise a rare bout of constraint and talk to a local gunsmith before I go taking the GSR apart.

On that note, though, I can't find any pictures of how the external extractor actually mounts in the slide; does the extractor have a single hole in it where that pin is driven through? Or, does it have a slot such that you can adjust the longitudinal position of the hook and then drive the pin in to hold it where you want it? That's my main concern, I'd hate to find out I need a special depth gauge to get the hook exactly where it needs to be before I can put it back together and get it working properly again.

[Sniper350]

Sorry , I have been away .........

The Sig extractor Pin drives from the top to the bottom........ with a side note: Don't try and drive the pin all the way out the bottom of the Slide - only far enough to release the extractor !

What I am about to tell you is from what I have learned from "doing" -- as I am NOT a gunsmith . I have shot weapons for a lot longer than the time I have spent trying to fix them.............. both in competition and as a paid profession [ 12 years as a long gun specialist ].

I believe most of the problems with the Sig 1911 centers around the extractor as many have pointed out here on this forum [ the Capt. for one ].
Some of what I see also looks like evidence of "tolerance stacking".

The reason so many people have brought their GSR's for me to look at is because they have seen my full size 1911 GSR perform at the indoor Range.
So they automatically think I have the answer for their SIG problems. :confused: After several months of tinkering, my GSR performs flawlessly at "Combat speed" - no casual paper plinking here.

Back to the extractor: I had the owner order and install the EGW extractor and spring in a recent SIG Carry -- but the extractor still seems too tight, but better than what was delivered from the factory. The only thing that seemed to work [ to ease and free things up ] was to file a tiny amount of metal off the extractor hook.
The bottom 45 degree angle on the corner [of the claw ] was dressed in this fashion. The lip of the claw was dressed and smoothed with 600 grit.
I used "snap Caps" to gauge my progress [ if any ] while smoothing the extractor surfaces. A little goes a long way here. The extractor on the SIG Carry now feeds the snap caps much more smoothly than when we started working on the problem. It is my personal opinion, that the external extractors [ in the way they are set up by SIG ] are too long for the design. This makes their operation VERY sensitive to perfect adjustment. Another words these extractors have to be fit "perfectly" with NO tolerance to be off a hair - here or there. Don't fall into the trap of trying to fix the problem with a stronger recoil spring. It WILL mask the problem for awhile, but will result in "bullet set-back" - something you will see if you take the time to carefully investigate.

BTF - Once you hit that sweet spot with the extractor ........it seems to last a long time, My GSR is still going strong 1,000 rounds later - maybe a bit more. I really don't expect anymore problems from the extractor for tens of thousands of rounds - that might be wishful thinking, I don't know at this point :D

JF.

[David Rose]

Sniper, what holds the pin in on the GSR? Is it just that tight? On the Caspian models, the pin is not at all tight and would surely work its way up (and out), if not for the crimp. The bottom of the pin is captive from the frame. It has no place to go, nor can it interfer with anything below, if it tried. That's odd that they would make that change. But more odd things have happened...

David

Sorry , I have been away .........

The Sig extractor Pin drives from the top to the bottom........ with a side note: Don't try and drive the pin all the way out the bottom of the Slide - only far enough to release the extractor !

What I am about to tell you is from what I have learned from "doing" -- as I am NOT a gunsmith . I have shot weapons for a lot longer than the time I have spent trying to fix them.............. both in competition and as a paid profession [ 12 years as a long gun specialist ].

I believe most of the problems with the Sig 1911 centers around the extractor as many have pointed out here on this forum [ the Capt. for one ].
Some of what I see also looks like evidence of "tolerance stacking".

The reason so many people have brought their GSR's for me to look at is because they have seen my full size 1911 GSR perform at the indoor Range.
So they automatically think I have the answer for their SIG problems. :confused: After several months of tinkering, my GSR performs flawlessly at "Combat speed" - no casual paper plinking here.

Back to the extractor: I had the owner order and install the EGW extractor and spring in a recent SIG Carry -- but the extractor still seems too tight, but better than what was delivered from the factory. The only thing that seemed to work [ to ease and free things up ] was to file a tiny amount of metal off the extractor hook.
The bottom 45 degree angle on the corner [of the claw ] was dressed in this fashion. The lip of the claw was dressed and smoothed with 600 grit.
I used "snap Caps" to gauge my progress [ if any ] while smoothing the extractor surfaces. A little goes a long way here. The extractor on the SIG Carry now feeds the snap caps much more smoothly than when we started working on the problem. It is my personal opinion, that the external extractors [ in the way they are set up by SIG ] are too long for the design. This makes their operation VERY sensitive to perfect adjustment. Another words these extractors have to be fit "perfectly" with NO tolerance to be off a hair - here or there. Don't fall into the trap of trying to fix the problem with a stronger recoil spring. It WILL mask the problem for awhile, but will result in "bullet set-back" - something you will see if you take the time to carefully investigate.

BTF - Once you hit that sweet spot with the extractor ........it seems to last a long time, My GSR is still going strong 1,000 rounds later - maybe a bit more. I really don't expect anymore problems from the extractor for tens of thousands of rounds - that might be wishful thinking, I don't know at this point :D

JF.

[Sniper350]

Hey David,

About what keeps the extractor pin in place ...............

I am only guessing here, because I never tried to force the pin out the top of the Slide [ which is the wrong direction you should try to remove it ] .
But other companies like CZ [for one ] use a tapered "channel" to prevent the pin from exiting at the wrong end. I know this because I was given wrong info on a CZ model and tried to force the Pin out in the wrong direction. Broke three punches, before I decided something was seriuosly wrong with the information. That darn pin would not drive out in the wrong direction, no matter how much banging I did. So I know the technique of using a tapered channel works VERY well.

On a side note: The SIG GSR that I now own, was worked on by the previous owner who had no clue as to the direction the extractor pin should go. He badly peened open the top hole in the Slide trying to get the extractor pin out. But so far, I have NOT noticed any movement of the pin upward to where it might exit the Slide on its own accord. I don't know if I have been lucky..........or not much force is being applied vertically to the pin during the pistol's operation???

I have been meaning to ask George of EGW if he sells different "spring" strengths to go with his external extractors ? I have seen "standard" and extra power at the Wolff website ......... but nothing weaker than standard.
I think the spring [extractor ] strength is too strong on most of these SIG's, but they are so tiny I don't know that you can cut anything away from them to make them a tad weaker ??? It seems after many thousands of rounds { often plagued by troubled shooting } the springs take a weaker set and the pistol starts working smoother.

I could be totally wrong in this belief ............. but because of the lack of adjustment properties of the external extractor, -- I don't think it is suited well for the original 1911 design with its (2) feed ramp loading methodology.

JF.

[BTF/PTM]

Anyone know off hand what size punch is needed to drive the extractor pin out of the slide (from the bottom, of course :) )?

[Sniper350]

I used a 1/16" punch - steel

Be careful and don't be fooled if the top hole in the slide accepts the next largest punch............ look down inside [ from the top ] and make sure the punch you are using covers just the pin. My Slide has a tiny ledge inside.
Don';t know about yours or anyone elses.

JF.

[BTF/PTM]

thanks! I'll pick up a punch this afternoon and work with the extractor while I'm cleaning the gun.

I looked at the EGW website and found the external extractor. It says it's made for use with a Caspian slide, and also says it's made in SIG style. It's a newbie question, but does that mean that Sig's GSR slides are Caspian-made?

I'm curious to see what the spring looks like, it seems like such a simple fix to me to weaken that spring a bit.

[Sniper350]

It says it's made for use with a Caspian slide, and also says it's made in SIG style. It's a newbie question, but does that mean that Sig's GSR slides are Caspian-made?

That's what I have been lead to believe, that both the frame and Slide are Caspian. At least the early generation models.

If you remove the original Extractor .......take that opportunity to polish all the surfaces that you can. The more highly polished - the better. That process will remove the tinest bit of material, which looks like it solves a lot of troubles.

JF.

[BTF/PTM]

That's what I have been lead to believe, that both the frame and Slide are Caspian. At least the early generation models.

If you remove the original Extractor .......take that opportunity to polish all the surfaces that you can. The more highly polished - the better. That process will remove the tinest bit of material, which looks like it solves a lot of troubles.

JF.

I talked to a local gunsmith today who said the same thing. He said even the tiniest burrs on the breechface or the extractor hook could cause my problem. He also recommended that I send it back to Sig one more time, which I was very impressed with. Not often that a businessman will tell you outright that the item could be better serviced elsewhere. He's right, I think, as frustrating as it would be to have the gun to back to Sig AGAIN (third time). It's only 4 months old, it's brand new, it needs to be fixed right by the right people. Sigh...