Trigger slop + grip safety issues

[KellyHopkinsville]

Hello, everybody. This is my first post. My current project is building a dedicated .22 1911 using a Philippine frame and a Ciener conversion unit. I've heard a lot both good and bad about these frames, so I was on the lookout for out-of-spec issues, etc. I was impressed, however, by the overall fit and finish of the frame.That is, I was until I dropped the trigger into the trigger channel and discovered an excessive amount of vertical play. The trigger will move up and down between 1/16" and 1/8" along its entire length. This was the situation with two different triggers I tried (one no-name long adjustable from SARCO, the other a long 3-hole from King's Gun Works). So I think it's a frame problem.

I was concerned about this because of course any trigger will feel sloppy in that frame, but more seriously I didn't see how the grip safety could function reliably when engaging a trigger bow with that much play. I had seen another thread mentioning an oversize trigger channel on a Philippine frame (here: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=7943), which didn't mention grip-safety concerns, so I thought maybe I'm being alarmist and it's a non-issue.

Well, last night I fitted a new grip-safety and I'm here to tell you: The slop in the trigger IS an issue. The safety blocks rearward trigger travel when you pull straight back, but if you wiggle it up and down, the hammer falls.

So I'm looking for a fix for this problem, and I hope I can find one that won't cost more than what I saved by buying an economy frame! I'm focusing on the trigger. I have found two triggers advertised as oversize, needing fitting, which may help (here: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1300&title=SEMI-AUTO+NATIONAL+MATCH+TRIGGER and here: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=23562&title=1911+AUTO+SOLID+ALUMINUM+MATCH+TRIGGER), but I'm concerned that the oversize dimension will be on the trigger shoe, not on the bow, which is what really needs to be bigger.

Another notion is altering a regular trigger. I was thinking that carefully peening the sides of the trigger bow may spread them out enough to fill the channel vertically, or at least reduce play to an acceptable amount.

I would appreciate any feedback on this problem and any suggestions as to how to cope with it. Thanks in advance.

KH

[emilio]

first off - welcome to the board, and bummer!

if you haven't seriously modified the frame, i first suggest trying to exchange it (and getting them to ship it quickly). if it's really out-of-spec such that the gun can't be assembled safely, you have a case for exchange - play the sad fiddle.

if you're stuck with it, you may want to try adding material to some areas. this could be as simple as epoxying shims to the trigger block or bow, or as complex as having someone tack-weld a rod in the trigger channel.

you could also call up some parts shop, such as Berryhill or EGW or even a local machine shop, and ask if they could put a vertical adjustment screw or permanent stop in an aluminum trigger block. you could try it yourself, with a drill press - drill a small hole, glue in or press-fit a section of rod, and file it down 'till it fits right. yeah, it's a bit of a hack.

good luck!
- emilio

[Captain Eagle]

"Whats cheap, is expensive. " Captain Eagle

[KellyHopkinsville]

Thanks for the feedback. Returning the frame is not really an option at this point. But the idea of shimming the trigger sounds good. Re: Paying more for a cheap frame in the long run -- I had a feeling I might have trouble with it, but I'm willing to make the compromise because I look at it as tuition in learning how to work on firearms. A better frame might eliminate the need for a customized trigger, but then I'd never learn how to customize a trigger. And what the hay, it's only time and money, right?

Thanks again

[niemi24s]

Hi KH: Welcome to the best forum in 1911-Land. Sounds like you got yourself an "educational kit"!

The spec for the height of the aft part of the receiver's trigger bow channel is 0.233 + 0.005 inch. The forward part for the shoe is 0.914 + (maybe 0.006 - it's fuzzy on my print) inch. Other specs are available in the Technical Issues section.

It pays to know what's really out of spec before deciding on a course of action - not forgetting the "carve on the cheapest part" motto.

Also, the aft portion of the trigger bow is supposed to be hardened and might not take too well to peening. Maybe it will - never beat on one myself. Cheers.

[Hawkmoon]

What about peening the tip of the grip safety arm to stretch it downward rather than lengthwise? Is this a fawncy, big-dollar grip safety or a generic that wouldn't break the bank if you muck it up?

If it's an expensive one, I'd suggest perhaps picking up an inexpensive generic one to play with. The folks at Sarco have several not-too-expensive grip safety options you could try for under 20 bucks.

[Captain Eagle]

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/8854154/121550615.jpg

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL368/953404/8854154/121550721.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

I thought about that, too, Captain. But the way I read the original problem, I think he's saying that the slot in the grip where the stirrup slides is over-height, allowing the entire stirrup to shift up and down. Padding the trigger pad just stabilzes the fulcrum -- the back end could still shift up and down. (I think, if I'm visualizing the actual problem correctly.)

[Captain Eagle]

I realize that the problem is in the trigger stirrup. If the shoe can't move anyway except back and forth, it may help. It is certainly a cheap trick that also gives you a prep tab.

Let's face the facts. He has a paperweight.

[BigJon]

What about peening the tip of the grip safety arm to stretch it downward rather than lengthwise?

Dunno. Seems to me that if you have a trigger whose pad rocks enough to allow the back of the bow to move up and down, it wouldn't even seem possible to adjust the arm so that it will function properly with any repeatability.


I realize that the problem is in the trigger stirrup. If the shoe can't move anyway except back and forth, it may help. . . . Let's face the facts. He has a paperweight.

Yea, that sort of what I was thinking too. The only thing that concerns me is that if he goes with a cheap trigger, the ones I've seem have a very fragile (or perhaps "easily bent" is more accurate) junction where the bow meets the pad. Over time, the metal at that joint could weaken, allowing the bow to begin to move up and down again even though the pad can't, suddenly rendering the GS inoperable again. My point is that for this to be something I'd rely on, it'd have to be a good trigger with a strong junction of the bow to the pad.

Best,
Jon

[Captain Eagle]

I developed this trigger fix for a junk Essex lower end that a pal bought off of the Internet. If you notice, those brass inserts are not rounded and can't tip.They fit flat aginst the trigger shoe area.
Why do you guys want to use this stuff? The difference between bad and great is at best, $50.00! What will you save when you are done with your project?
Oh well, there are things in this world I am not smart enough to understand.
Sorry............................

[KellyHopkinsville]

Captain

Thanks for the explanation. I couldn't see that's how your trigger fix would work but I can now. Looks like just the solution I was looking for. And as for the $50 I "saved" buying a troublesome frame: I don't think I'll go for such a false economy again!

Thanks everyone for your feedback and support

KH